It always was a pet theory of mine that Washington would get a great(er) status again (not that he necessarily lost it) in TTL due to being a symbol of unity during the Revolution, and the country looking back to such a time for such heroes and unity of purpose.
TL-191: After the End
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It always was a pet theory of mine that Washington would get a great(er) status again (not that he necessarily lost it) in TTL due to being a symbol of unity during the Revolution, and the country looking back to such a time for such heroes and unity of purpose.
Yeah, I was thinking along the same thing, Washington can be used as a measure to downplay the divide between the US and former CS.
One thing I was thinking, how the perception of Lincoln has (if at all) changed since the end of the Second Great War. After all, it has been a century as of TTL since the end of the War of Secession, I'd like to think that slowly the perception of him would change from "the reason for 80 years of conflict" to "the only man who tried to keep the nation together when seemingly the whole world was against the USA"...but that's just me
One thing I was thinking, how the perception of Lincoln has (if at all) changed since the end of the Second Great War. After all, it has been a century as of TTL since the end of the War of Secession, I'd like to think that slowly the perception of him would change from "the reason for 80 years of conflict" to "the only man who tried to keep the nation together when seemingly the whole world was against the USA"...but that's just me
I can see the historiography of the period going though a similar development to our preceptions of people such as Chamberlain. We would have the Orthodox perception of Lincoln as a simple ideological warmonger towards a more sympathetic and revisionist view of him as a man committed to abolitionism and the establishment of a more just society for all Americans (leaving aside his own white-supremacist views that is...)
Thomas Brackett Reed perhaps? I believe he stopped a Confederate threat to invade Haiti. So basically anyone who stepped up to the British, French, and Confederates would be up there, but i doubt there were many of them.
And I agree that it depends on when its made, but if it was made in the same time as OTL, which was 1927-1941, i would doubt it would include Washington.
If made around the same time as OTL's it might include Reed, Mahan, (if they are as successful as people are saying) TR, and Sinclair. (The last one is not as probable since he might still be in power at the time of the building and/or it might be too soon. Though most would agree his administration was quite good). Another possibility would be McCellan as the first "only-Union President" (but also unlikely).
If done later than OTL's after the end of the Great War it should include LaFollette but Reed and Mahan would be most likely irrelevant to the enlarged US. So my guess is it would have Washington and Jefferson (maybe Jackson) as a way to show unity. It would need a northern president (after those two) and LaFollette, to show the new union.
Also, (I mentioned this in a thread about art,architecture, and society in TL 191 a while back) art in TL191 might be way different than OTLs. In this case, due to the absence of the Soviet Union and the fact that many communist sympathizers, intellectuals, artists, etc. probably moved or fled to the socialist friendly USA, art in TL191's US might actually resemble OTLs Soviet art. Not because the US is communist but because that is where that talent ended. So maybe not Mt. Rushmore but newer (post GWII) monuments might resemble Soviet monuments. One I can think of would be, a Roosevelt or LaFollette monument where OTL's Lincoln memorial stands. Imagine this huge statue of Roosevelt "rallying" the American spirit, while looking towards the Washington monument and Congress.
I actually think that that statue is a good approximation of the one in New York Harbor ITTL.
What was Mahan supposed to have done in this TL that made him such a great president?
If this Mount Rushmore has a similar start date TR was probably the last of the four in terms of when he served.
jycee, in this TL McClellan lost the Battle of Antietam which effectively ended the war so I really doubt he was ever elected president.
Just imagine the alternate history websites of this TL when someone suggests a much happier and more peaceful world if only Lincoln had succeeded in putting down the South in the early 1860s.
If this Mount Rushmore has a similar start date TR was probably the last of the four in terms of when he served.
jycee, in this TL McClellan lost the Battle of Antietam which effectively ended the war so I really doubt he was ever elected president.
Just imagine the alternate history websites of this TL when someone suggests a much happier and more peaceful world if only Lincoln had succeeded in putting down the South in the early 1860s.
What was Mahan supposed to have done in this TL that made him such a great president?
If this Mount Rushmore has a similar start date TR was probably the last of the four in terms of when he served.
jycee, in this TL McClellan lost the Battle of Antietam which effectively ended the war so I really doubt he was ever elected president.
Just imagine the alternate history websites of this TL when someone suggests a much happier and more peaceful world if only Lincoln had succeeded in putting down the South in the early 1860s.
In 1894 TTL, a diplomatic crisis erupted over the CSA possibly building a canal in Nicaragua. Mahan, who had continued the Prussian reforms to the military (and extended the Navy I believe), threatened the CSA with war if they went along with the plan. At this point Richmond had not yet begun to reform like the USA had, so they played it safe and backed down. I guess you can say Mahan gave the nation a much needed morale boost...
of yours
On that final point of yours Grimm, it would be really interesting to think up how people in TTL would interpret our world...
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I always thought Lady Remembrance looked something more like this (also a soviet statue):
While such a question is, of course, always interesting, I think they might actually view our world as something of a dystopia. Sure, Turtledove's original works and even some of Dave's stuff paint the world darkly: the six and a half million to eight million African-Confederates killed in the former C.S.A. (Dave, have you figured an exact number for this...?), the Germans even being worse than the Belgians in the Congo colony, the U.S.'s persecution of the Mormons (and their counterattacks against the government), the Ottomans and the Armenians...Just imagine the alternate history websites of this TL when someone suggests a much happier and more peaceful world if only Lincoln had succeeded in putting down the South in the early 1860s.
On the other hand, TTL seems like it's ultimately going to be more prosperous. A large political power in South America has made the continent far wealthier than OTL, eastern Europe isn't a mess, Islamic extremists have been marginalized to the point they're a virtual non-entity, no real arms race means far, far less nuclear bombs than in our world, and the American right and left really aren't really filled with crazies and seem to actually be able to work together on issues; there also seems to be far fewer wars than in OTL as well from a post-WWII/SGW standpoint when comparing. India and Pakistan are seemingly going to be settle their differences far more peacefully than OTL as well and any future conflicts that happened in OTL over certain issues may be nipped in the bud earlier with the I.M.'s guiding hand. The only real 'questions' I think are Africa and Asia, where they're headed in comparison to OTL.
one question, What happened to Clarenca Potter and his book? I think you give the USA to easy a time in the old CSA. but thats just me. otherwise great TL and I wait eagerly for the update
I actually felt TL-191 wound wind up with a FAT vibe to the post-war years. Think about it - there's no UN, numerous atomic bombs were used by both sides before the war was over, there's no stigma against using chemical weapons, terrorism (as we know it) becomes fashoinable amongst extremists a good half-century early, and people are shown to be completely unable to compromise on anything. It certainly looks like TL-191 is heading for a "For All Time" style conclusion.
As do I!
One thing that's been buzzing in my head lately is how different the major cities in the world will be seen as. For example, after OTL WWII you see London and Paris as the main major cities of Europe, but in TTL you have Berlin and Vienna replace them.
I've also been thinking of what Austria Hungary looks like. Assuming whatever route the Empire took to reform, what would it look like politically and socially...?
Probably far better then OTL since one of the reasons all of the former parts of the Austro-Hungarian empire did so bad economically post-war OTL was because several of the post war countries lacked the resources to function. Before the war if say for example Galicia needed coal it would get some from Transilvania. But after the war places that lacked certain resources formerly could obtain them from other parts of the Empire but now couldn't. Since TTL AH never collapsed I'd imagine that it would be far more industrialized with more infulstructure to bring the country together and other things to help break down the various barriers and achive some sort of homogenious feeling. Beyond this I can't speculate further.
Socially I'd imagine that it would be how it was for people in the US before the ACW with people seeing themselves as Hungarian/Austrian/Slovakian/Slavic first and Austro-Hungarian second.
As for politically I'd imagine that the Empire would resemble a sort of Federal union with each of the the ethnic groups having a equal say in things. Of course there would be seperatist groups but how effective they would be with a reformed AH and with no fourteen points (which really had a major impact of the non Austrian and Hungarian ethnic groups) I have no idea.
Interesting info Saladan, I'd imagine that Austria Hungary might adopt a governmental system akin to Germany's, considering the ties both nations have (you have the Emperor holding more of a symbolic position, a Chancellor/Prime Minister and a Legislature which has more power...).
I agree with you that most people in the Empire would view themselves as Croatian or Galacian or Czech as opposed to members of a united empire...is there any conseivable event post Great War that could change the perception of the majority of the Empires population to view themselves as Austro-Hungarian or some equivalent?
Hm...I don't know, maybe it's just me, but after the superbombing of Paris, Vienna strikes me as its successor in terms of art and culture...or is it just me...?