TL-191: After the End

[Tom Kalbfus]

Tom, Japan hasn't conquered all or even the majority of China in this TL and what you just said is utterly contradictory to how Japan actually handled all of her conquests.

Even in Korea, where Japan had 40 years to moderate and work with the population, loyalty and sympathy for Japan was effectively nil.

The idea of the Japanese leadership from OTL 1895-1945 being more interested in improving the empire than in preserving the Japanese character of the empire isn't alternate history, it's ASB territory.

Either the Japanese have got to learn how to live with their conquests, or they kill them all and make those conquests meaningless. What would it mean for the Japanese if they killed all the inhabitants of Korea and move in Japanese citizens to replace them, would it be much of a conquest? What if they killed all the Chinese in the Chinese provinces they controlled at great cost in Japanese soldiers lives only in the end to conquer an land mass with a lot of skulls and corpses plowed into the dirt, would this sort of "victory" enhance the Japanese Empire in anyway other than giving it more land to occupy? More coal to mine perhaps?

I think the majority of the value of the conquests would be in the people they conquer, natural resources are meaningless without people to mine them, and in order to use the people they conquer, they have to make use of their talents, and some of those talents would naturally fall into the territory of administering their Empire, and in order to do that a sort of "working relationship" would have to be established so they are not constantly putting down rebellions all the time and costing Japanese soldiers their lives in putting down the insurrections. I think Chinese peasants work more efficiently if they are allowed to do so for their own sakes and economic benefit rather than requiring Japanese soldiers to point guns to their heads all the time. The Japanese soldier for his part would like to go home to his family once the war is over, and for that to happen the war and the constant fighting has to end or at least peter down to a more tolerable level. The majority of the Chinese will have to accept that they've been beaten and come to some sort of accomodation with their new rulers, and some of those Chinese will rise up within that system - without that happening the Japanese Empire will eventually fall apart. There is an inherent contradiction between conquering one's neighbors and retaining one's original character. If Japan's was to be a lasting Empire it would have to eventually absorb the cultural influences of those they have conquered, so the Japanese of the Japanese Empire won't be quite so "Japanese" as in OTL.

 

[vultan]

I've skimmed through this TL, and I have to say, IT'S FUCKING AWESOME!
But I have a question: if the population of the Republic of Haiti is majority-anglophone blacks who are refugees from Featherston's genocide, and they already have a "special relationship" with the USA, could there be a push for statehood in the future?

 

[Michael B]

Either the Japanese have got to learn how to live with their conquests, or they kill them all and make those conquests meaningless.

An alternative is to enslave them. That worked pretty well for empires from the Assyrians to the Japanese on OTL. As long as the masses work, provide tribute and troops, are their overlords going to care that them are not loved.

I think the majority of the value of the conquests would be in the people they conquer, natural resources are meaningless without people to mine them, and in order to use the people they conquer, they have to make use of their talents, and some of those talents would naturally fall into the territory of administering their Empire, and in order to do that a sort of "working relationship" would have to be established so they are not constantly putting down rebellions all the time and costing Japanese soldiers their lives in putting down the insurrections.

There will some who try to prosper by kowtowing with their overlords. In the process they get hated by their own people and despised as inferior by the overlords. It is remarkable not that there are so few of them, but so many.

There is an inherent contradiction between conquering one's neighbors and retaining one's original character. If Japan's was to be a lasting Empire it would have to eventually absorb the cultural influences of those they have conquered, so the Japanese of the Japanese Empire won't be quite so "Japanese" as in OTL.

Not really when you belong to a superior race/class. It is only right that there are peasants out there to toil to your benefit. The Ottomans did pretty well with such a view for several hundred years as distinct overlords as did Muslim rajas in majority Hindu realms.

There is no reason why the Japanese in TL191 could not continue to run their Empire on racist and oppressive means, except for the same reason that they ran afoul of on OTL, the West. Sooner or later they are going to run into the USA and the smart money is on the latter.

Of course they are not going to be a pushover, especially with sunbomb tipped rockets. One would thus expect the USA to have an ABM shield. The Germans certainly would have one to protect them from a strike by British IRBMs based in Scotland.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

An alternative is to enslave them. That worked pretty well for empires from the Assyrians to the Japanese on OTL. As long as the masses work, provide tribute and troops, are their overlords going to care that them are not loved.

And how are the Assyrians doing these days?
1) So long as you have slaves, you need someone to oversee them and make them work by threatening them.
2) Slaves are wealth, the more slaves one has, the wealthier one is.
2a) Hence the ruling class will want to encourage the reproduction of slaves

Where does this lead to?
1) If the ruling class limits their reproduction, and has fewer children then they can have more slaves waiting on them with more slaves per ruling class member the wealthier the individuals of a ruling class are.
2) Inevitably, you end up with something like 10 slaves per ruling class member, then 20, then 100.
3) The ruling class become a tiny minority within their own Empire, which makes them ripe for a fall.
4) Eventually the slaves realize that there are not enough overseerers to make them work, so then they rebell, and they find they outnumber the ruling class members by 100 to 1 so they slaughter them and the ruling class becomes extinct and the former slaves inherent the Empire of their fomer masters who are no more.

You see, you got to think long term when considering the implications of slavery.
Do you know for instance that South Africa used to be mostly white?
then the blacks came south and worked for them, the South African Whites got used to having an underclass and they lorded it over them, and eventually the blacks greatly outnumbered the whites, they had their revolution and the whites basically lost their country to their former servants, and I think that is what will eventually happen to the Japanese if they have a slave empire, the Chinese already outnumber them, it is hard to enslave one billion Chinese to one hundred million Japanese. When the ruled outnumber their masters then a place is ripe for a revolution and an overturning of class structure, a wise Japanese would realize that rather than thinking they can sustain a system of slavery indefinitely.

The Japanese have four choices:
1) Intergrate them into their society,
2) Let them go,
3) Exterminate them,
4) Enslave them and eventually the slaves will become the masters.

There will some who try to prosper by kowtowing with their overlords. In the process they get hated by their own people and despised as inferior by the overlords. It is remarkable not that there are so few of them, but so many.

The Russians Kow Towed to the Mongols, and many indeed did well by this, and look what eventually happened to the Mongols, they didn't stay on top did they?

Not really when you belong to a superior race/class. It is only right that there are peasants out there to toil to your benefit. The Ottomans did pretty well with such a view for several hundred years as distinct overlords as did Muslim rajas in majority Hindu realms.

And what happened to the Ottomans? There slave system did not last, maybe all their slaves did not free themselves, but their masters are no longer the Ottomans. Often when you have an overturning of the social structure, a revolution occurs and either the slaves free themselves or a subset of them become the new masters over the rest, and the former masters are either driven out, enslaved, or even worse exterminated!

There is no reason why the Japanese in TL191 could not continue to run their Empire on racist and oppressive means, except for the same reason that they ran afoul of on OTL, the West. Sooner or later they are going to run into the USA and the smart money is on the latter.

A nuclear Japan vs a nuclear America doesn't have a happy ending for either side, both countries have got to learn to live together if they are to survive. Japan can't expand much further without risking nuclear war, and the USA can't defeat them militarily without risking nuclear war. Japan doesn't have a rotten economic system like the Soviet Union did, so they can have a Cold War for a long time if they wish. Of course Japan can't sell very many Toyotas to the US so long as it maintains a hostile icy relationship with the US, it can't have much of an export driven economy either - it may make very good cars, but as long as Japan is seen as an Enemy, its going to have a hard time selling them in the US.

To improve relations with the US, its going to have to accomodate itself with its subject populations by giving them rights as citizens and ceasing their barbaric practices, and stop threatening their neighbors as well, then you can have a sort of "Glastnost" and an easing of relations.

Of course they are not going to be a pushover, especially with sunbomb tipped rockets. One would thus expect the USA to have an ABM shield. The Germans certainly would have one to protect them from a strike by British IRBMs based in Scotland.

In the 1960s a missile shield would have to mean nuclear tipped interceptors that explode in the vicintity of their targets to vaporize them, guidance systems aren't very accurate in this era. A lot of EMP would fry many electronic gadgets with transistors, a rather inconvenience for the naecent electronis industry of both sides.

 

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

Ok.

lemmee think

1: If Japan wipes out everyone in their Conquered Territories they'll go 'More land for me! and none of those pesky inferior Races to get in our way!'

2: Slave labor, yes, and keep them in a way they cannot rise up. Japan is not stupid, the events of the Failed Communist Revolution during the Great War is something they would have notices; the poor mass of Peasents rising to overthrow the Rich Upperclass.

3: In OTL have all the Desendents of Former Slaves forgiven and made freinds with the Desendents of their Former Owners?
Yes and no, Some made the effort to, others have not. The chance of the 'Superior' japanese becoming Freindly with the 'Inferior' Koreans, Chinese, and which ever else they conquered are practicaly Nil.

4: Japanese Nukes. as far as I know, I have some doubts about where they can put their Nuclear Processing factories, and how long they will remain Unnoticed. Put in Japan it;ll run the risk of accidents, Put it in conquered Territory, it runs the risk of Sabotage.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Ok.

lemmee think

1: If Japan wipes out everyone in their Conquered Territories they'll go 'More land for me! and none of those pesky inferior Races to get in our way!'

The Japanese kill one billion people to claim their land? How many Japanese will be left when they finish killing them all? That's an expensive way to pay for land! Are you assuming the Chinese will be completely passive in this and will just let the Japanese walk up to them and chop off their heads, maybe pausing to sharpen their swords after they get dulled with all that neck chopping.

It doesn't seem rational or plausible. You expect the Japanese to kill a population that outnumbers them ten to one?

2: Slave labor, yes, and keep them in a way they cannot rise up. Japan is not stupid, the events of the Failed Communist Revolution during the Great War is something they would have notices; the poor mass of Peasents rising to overthrow the Rich Upperclass.

Most cultures have failed to keep others permanently enslaved, how would you suggest they do that if the slaves outnumber their masters 10:1? Is every Japanese citizen supposed to be holding a machine gun on their slaves at all times, all ten of them? What happens when they go to sleep? How do they know their food isn't being poisoned. All it takes is for a few Japanese citizens to let down their guard and you have a chain reaction, of slaves freeing other slaves and attacking their masters, this is a very unstable situation, some of those slaves will get a hold of some guns after they defeat their masters.

It may be less trouble for Japanese to do the work themselves rather than pointing machine guns at their slaves to get them to do all the work. Capitalism, where people work for their own money has a lot to recommend it, as opposed to point a gun at somebody and saying, "Get me my coffee!"

3: In OTL have all the Desendents of Former Slaves forgiven and made freinds with the Desendents of their Former Owners?
Yes and no, Some made the effort to, others have not. The chance of the 'Superior' japanese becoming Freindly with the 'Inferior' Koreans, Chinese, and which ever else they conquered are practicaly Nil.

But they are not, a desire to have slaves is an indicator of laziness. If Japanese do not wish to do their own work and need slaves to do their work for them, they will get fat, and soft, and weak, and guess what their slaves are going to do to them when they get so fat that they can't even get out of bed any more? They'll place a pillow over their masters' heads and smother them. Having slaves is really rather foolish business if you ask me.

4: Japanese Nukes. as far as I know, I have some doubts about where they can put their Nuclear Processing factories, and how long they will remain Unnoticed. Put in Japan it;ll run the risk of accidents, Put it in conquered Territory, it runs the risk of Sabotage.

I think long lasting Empires are ones that give their inhabitiants something they want to preserve, if its just one population that sits on another and forces them to be their slaves, that situation is not going to last long, it will resolve itself in a number of ways:

1) The Empire breaks up
2) The definition of Citizen is broadened as it was in the late Roman Empire
3) or one population gets rid of the other.

I don't think there are any other possibilities.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Tom, constantly proclaiming and adhering to ideas which have absolutely no basis in reality is becoming a waste of time.

Basically you've decided that Japan must and will change how it handled all of Japan's colonies for generations, without any supporting evidence and hostile to the entire historical record, because you want them to. Then you take about how the Japanese could never be ruthless enough or efficient enough to hold the colonies. Except that they were.

Not to mention many of your comments are nonsense.

The Ottoman Empire did well for half a millenium and only went down when attacked repeatedly by one or more major powers, usually more. Nor was it ever a slave comparable to the American south or Brazil.

Whites were not a majority in South Africa.

Far from being harmed by slavery Assyria did so well that it lasted centuries and was only defeated by an alliance of Babylonians, Medes and Scyths which may have been historically unprecedented in scope.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Tom, constantly proclaiming and adhering to ideas which have absolutely no basis in reality is becoming a waste of time.

Basically you've decided that Japan must and will change how it handled all of Japan's colonies for generations, without any supporting evidence and hostile to the entire historical record, because you want them to. Then you take about how the Japanese could never be ruthless enough or efficient enough to hold the colonies. Except that they were.

Not to mention many of your comments are nonsense.

The Ottoman Empire did well for half a millenium and only went down when attacked repeatedly by one or more major powers, usually more. Nor was it ever a slave comparable to the American south or Brazil.

Whites were not a majority in South Africa.

Far from being harmed by slavery Assyria did so well that it lasted centuries and was only defeated by an alliance of Babylonians, Medes and Scyths which may have been historically unprecedented in scope.

But the Russians did enslave the Mongols under Communism in the end didn't they!

 

[Faeelin]

Even in Korea, where Japan had 40 years to moderate and work with the population, loyalty and sympathy for Japan was effectively nil.

The idea of the Japanese leadership from OTL 1895-1945 being more interested in improving the empire than in preserving the Japanese character of the empire isn't alternate history, it's ASB territory.

On the other hand, Taiwan was a model colony, and even today there are people who remember the Emperor fondly. And a Japanese puppet Filipino republic from the 1890s onwards is going to have a lot of effects on how Japan sees itself.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Tom, even by your standards that statement is asinine. Only eight and half centuries after the Mongols arrived and conquered much of Russia the USSR managed to occupy the last remnant of the long-extinct Mongol empire.





Faeelin, where did the books suggest Japan had seized the Philipines?

 

[David bar Elias]

Faeelin, where did the books suggest Japan had seized the Philipines?

IIRC, the "Hispano-Japanese War" is mentioned a number of times.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Tom, even by your standards that statement is asinine. Only eight and half centuries after the Mongols arrived and conquered much of Russia the USSR managed to occupy the last remnant of the long-extinct Mongol empire.





Faeelin, where did the books suggest Japan had seized the Philipines?

I still think people who keep slaves must be too lazy to do their own work, and that leads to moral degeneracy and decline as those fat and happy people atrophy and become weak due to their own reliance on their slave labor. The decline comes from within due to their own internal rot and laziness. So why do you consider that asinine? People who do not do their own work eventually become helpless and unable to do their own work due to lack of exercise.
Seems rather sensible to me.

 

[Nevermore]

Faeelin, where did the books suggest Japan had seized the Philipines?

Grimm - it was never specifically fleshed out upon in the books. However, the Hispano-Japanese war of TTL was briefly mentioned in the Great War trilogy I think. Due to a retcon I believe David hasn't put up yet, he's told me the Philippines are also a direct part of the Empire of Japan (as are Korea, its Siberian holdings, Guam, Palau, the Carolines, the Mariana Islands, Taiwan, and Hainan Island). It's implied that Spain handed over many of its Pacific colonies to Japan after they were victorious in the war.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Tom, in other words you admit that you have absolutely no historical/factual basis for anything you've posted the last few days on this thread and are reduced to declaring that Japan would embark on radical changes contrary to their entire imperial history...because you want them to.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Tom, in other words you admit that you have absolutely no historical/factual basis for anything you've posted the last few days on this thread and are reduced to declaring that Japan would embark on radical changes contrary to their entire imperial history...because you want them to.

Why is it then that people keep slaves?

Is it because they are hard working?

Or is it because they are lazy and unwilling to do their own work?

The Japanese have had a reputation for being hard workers, so what is the effect of having slaves that do their hard work for them, going to have on their hard work ethic?

Nothing good, I'll tell you that.

So what is it your trying to tell me, that having slaves will make the Japanese work even harder?

 

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

Why is it then that people keep slaves?

Is it because they are hard working?

Or is it because they are lazy and unwilling to do their own work?

The Japanese have had a reputation for being hard workers, so what is the effect of having slaves that do their hard work for them, going to have on their hard work ethic?

are we going with sterotypes now?

So what is it your trying to tell me, that having slaves will make the Japanese work even harder?

No, but they will give the very dangerous Jobs to the slaves, I.E. mining, certian types of Construction, maybe food Harvesting and mass production, while they work on other Jobs.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

are we going with sterotypes now?




No, but they will give the very dangerous Jobs to the slaves, I.E. mining, certian types of Construction, maybe food Harvesting and mass production, while they work on other Jobs.

If slaves are 90% of the population, they will do 90% of the work.

Now a Japanese Empire that has conquered China and used all of the Chinese as slaves would have 90% of its population as slaves. Now don't tell me that the 90% figure wouldn't give the Japanese pause or worry. The Japanese would basically be a minority in their own country, and 90% of the work isn't dangerous or life threatening, and how is they typical Japanese citizen supposed to find work if he's competing with slave labor? The only viable job would be the military, and the military's job would be to oversee slave labor, being in the Army is often like being a slave, you can't really quite and you always have to follow orders, so pretty much everybody in the Japanese Empire is a slave of one kind or another.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Tom, unable to defend the nonsense you consider historical fact you change the subject and demand I defend a position I never took outside your own mind.

I understand being repeatedly and almost constantly proven wrong can be upsetting but your last 'question' to me, claiming that pointing out Japan's historical record of treating the colonies is tantamount to endorsing slavery, is just pathetic.

 

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

If slaves are 90% of the population, they will do 90% of the work.

can we get any sort of Historical Proof to back up your claims? Like say...acctual OTL numbers?

Now a Japanese Empire that has conquered China and used all of the Chinese as slaves would have 90% of its population as slaves. Now don't tell me that the 90% figure wouldn't give the Japanese pause or worry. The Japanese would basically be a minority in their own country, and 90% of the work isn't dangerous or life threatening, and how is they typical Japanese citizen supposed to find work if he's competing with slave labor? The only viable job would be the military, and the military's job would be to oversee slave labor, being in the Army is often like being a slave, you can't really quite and you always have to follow orders, so pretty much everybody in the Japanese Empire is a slave of one kind or another.

I just love how you assume there will be No colaberators, and they will give Slaves All the Jobs.
And so what if 90% of jobs aren't dangerous? the Japanese will Just make them work on the dangerous Jobs only, saving the Less Dangerous/More Vital jobs for themselves.

Now this argument has really gone no where, and seems to be more Self Full-filling fantasy with absolutly nothing in OTL or TTL to back it up.

 

[Hnau]

Japan wouldn't take the ENTIRE Chinese population as slave labor. There will be a huge Japanese version of the Gulag Archipelago, consisting of prisoners convicted of everything from petty theft to thought-crime, but I'm thinking most of the Han Chinese will merely be relegated to second-class citizens. The Japanese might even want to cultivate favor with them that they will try to make them feel like an important part of the Great Fraternal East Asian Union. That's going to be hard after the horrors of the last war, though.