If we go down the 50 calibre 47mm/HV 3 pounder route, it could also speed up development of shaped charges. The Italians developed HEAT and (accidentally) HESH rounds for their 47mm guns.
1937-42, yet another alt British Army what-if
- Thread starter tomo pauk
- Start date
And Sten gun as well as the Lanchester was in 9mm x 19 but that was war time expedient
Wasn't the proposed BSA- Kiraly SMG also Metric 9mm x 25 Mauser?
If you want an automatic rifle that can go into production in1939/40 then the Polish Kbsp wz. 1938M rifle is the one I would chose. Get the drawings and a few samples out in 1939 and then go from there. Changing to 303 rimmed would be a pain but the British did it with the Bren and the Browning machine guns so there is a precedence and experience there,
By all accounts this was a fine design, easy to field strip.
Personally if changing to 303 I would give it a detachable magazine interchangeable with the Bren. If this can be done and still use stripper clips with the rifle, then even better as it means each member of the squad can quickly refill the Bren guns magazines as well as their own.
Personally if changing to 303 I would give it a detachable magazine interchangeable with the Bren. If this can be done and still use stripper clips with the rifle, then even better as it means each member of the squad can quickly refill the Bren guns magazines as well as their own.
My go to is having a dedicated device to launch a larger than No 68 type Grenades (which itself would have to be arrived at earlier) further and more accurately than using a Mills Grenade Cup launcher on an SMLE.
Note the SMLEs in question were generally those deemed 'unfit for service' and used a special explosive round to 'send' the grenade and were not intended to be used as rifles except in an emergency.
So replacing a 4 + KG rifle with a 5 odd KG better RPG is not adding any burden to the unit.
Perhaps if the Mechanised force persisted into the 30s the need for small unit infantry (who are deemed to have been defeated by tank units by the umpires during exercises) to have the ability to take out tanks at closer ranges will expedite such weapons and drive innovation for ideas to defeat tank attack
The Polish Semi Auto Rifle had a fixed magazine, but changing it to a detachable one would mean more commonality with the Lee-Enfield number 4. Assuming you get the drawing and a few examples out of Poland in 1939, you might just about have it entering production in 1941 and in service in 1942.
Simplify the design for war production and it'll ruin any poor Farquhar's day.
Last edited:
Low hanging fruit for getting an SLR into service is the Vickers Pederson rifle as this came marginally close to being adopted in the early 30s
Have the British adopt the rifle and .276 round with its 10 round enbloc clip
The Bren is adopted also in this calibre upon its introduction
Known as the Number 4 rifle a lighter cut down 'cavalry carbine' variant officially known as the No 5 carbine is introduced in 1942 and by wars end 1946 production of the 'junglie' had exceed that of the 'long rifle' and became the main post war issued weapon to most commonwealth units (and the only one issued to Australian units)
While there was some concern about replacing .303 and delays in production running the risk of units using a mix of Bren gun and Vickers Pederson rifles alongside Lewis guns and SMLEs this was never actually an issue in practice and while some units did use a mix of weapons
Australian troops of the 2nd AIF did deploy to French Indo China armed with .303 weapons in 1941 but as one veteran of that campaign pointing out that they operated as a self contained formation and soldiers in his platoon alone were equipped with a range of weapons in other calibres such as US Tommy guns in .45, Owen guns and British BSA-Kiraly Machine carbines in 9x25mm and US M1 Carbines in .30 carbine.
And that was before they adopted the 'Junglie' SLR
Ammunition was issued in 10 round enbloc clips and supplied from factory in bandoliers each with 6 clips similar to the US ones show here
Note these were rarely carried 'slung' as they could easily catch on stuff and instead they would fold up and be placed in one of the soldiers chest pouches on their 37 Pattern webbing or later vests with another bandolier or 2 stashed in their pack - each soldier usually carried a pair of Bren gun magazines for the sections LMG (usually in their other chest pouch) and the majority of the rounds carried would be used to refill empty magazines as the sections LMG used them up.
Indeed it is said that if a section found itself down to 30 rounds or less they would all be in the last Bren gun magazine!
A clip or 2 was usually attached to the sling or later in the war to pouches added to the stock allowing for fast reloads
Have the British adopt the rifle and .276 round with its 10 round enbloc clip
The Bren is adopted also in this calibre upon its introduction
Known as the Number 4 rifle a lighter cut down 'cavalry carbine' variant officially known as the No 5 carbine is introduced in 1942 and by wars end 1946 production of the 'junglie' had exceed that of the 'long rifle' and became the main post war issued weapon to most commonwealth units (and the only one issued to Australian units)
While there was some concern about replacing .303 and delays in production running the risk of units using a mix of Bren gun and Vickers Pederson rifles alongside Lewis guns and SMLEs this was never actually an issue in practice and while some units did use a mix of weapons
Australian troops of the 2nd AIF did deploy to French Indo China armed with .303 weapons in 1941 but as one veteran of that campaign pointing out that they operated as a self contained formation and soldiers in his platoon alone were equipped with a range of weapons in other calibres such as US Tommy guns in .45, Owen guns and British BSA-Kiraly Machine carbines in 9x25mm and US M1 Carbines in .30 carbine.
And that was before they adopted the 'Junglie' SLR
Ammunition was issued in 10 round enbloc clips and supplied from factory in bandoliers each with 6 clips similar to the US ones show here
Note these were rarely carried 'slung' as they could easily catch on stuff and instead they would fold up and be placed in one of the soldiers chest pouches on their 37 Pattern webbing or later vests with another bandolier or 2 stashed in their pack - each soldier usually carried a pair of Bren gun magazines for the sections LMG (usually in their other chest pouch) and the majority of the rounds carried would be used to refill empty magazines as the sections LMG used them up.
Indeed it is said that if a section found itself down to 30 rounds or less they would all be in the last Bren gun magazine!
A clip or 2 was usually attached to the sling or later in the war to pouches added to the stock allowing for fast reloads
Not really
The ZB 53 only went into production in 1937 in Czechoslovakia
BESA was ordered in 1938 and in serial production in 1939 replacing the Vickers as the AFV machine gun in all British made tanks
The trick was to change the name of the gun from 'ZB 53' to BESA.......and with minor modifications otherwise not fuck with the design allowing for a rapid adoption.
The larger 15mm weapon was not as successful as the BESA but they still made 3000 odd for light tanks and armoured cars from 1940
Relatively limited production compared to rifles. New tooling, separate to mainstream.
Been was a bit different
Bren took ages, through false starts, mods, drawing and tooling
Contributor: C. Peter Chen
ww2dbaseIn
1930, the British Army tested the Czechoslovakian light machine gun ZB vz. 27 (which was a direct successor of the ZB vz. 26) and gave the design satisfactory results; although it was ranked superior to entries such as the US-made BAR and the locally made Vickers-Berthier weapons, the peacetime stance and the stagnant 1930s economy led to little progress by ways of the adaptation of these new light machine guns. Nevertheless, subsequent designs of ZB vz. 30, ZB vz. 33, and ZB vz. 34 were rechambered for the British .303 inch ammunition, and trials continued until it was finally accepted shortly after the final trial in Aug 1934. To prepare for production in Britain, metric units on the drawings were converted to imperial units in Jan 1935. The first example was produced in Sep 1937 at the Royal Small Arms Factory in the London Borough of Enfield in southern England, and this production location gave the Czechoslovakian-British weapon its amalgamated name: By taking the first two letters of its place of design, the city of Brno, and the first two letters of its place of production, the borough of Enfield, the name Bren was born.
ww2dbaseIn
1930, the British Army tested the Czechoslovakian light machine gun ZB vz. 27 (which was a direct successor of the ZB vz. 26) and gave the design satisfactory results; although it was ranked superior to entries such as the US-made BAR and the locally made Vickers-Berthier weapons, the peacetime stance and the stagnant 1930s economy led to little progress by ways of the adaptation of these new light machine guns. Nevertheless, subsequent designs of ZB vz. 30, ZB vz. 33, and ZB vz. 34 were rechambered for the British .303 inch ammunition, and trials continued until it was finally accepted shortly after the final trial in Aug 1934. To prepare for production in Britain, metric units on the drawings were converted to imperial units in Jan 1935. The first example was produced in Sep 1937 at the Royal Small Arms Factory in the London Borough of Enfield in southern England, and this production location gave the Czechoslovakian-British weapon its amalgamated name: By taking the first two letters of its place of design, the city of Brno, and the first two letters of its place of production, the borough of Enfield, the name Bren was born.
Adopting a rifle calibre autoloader that can share magazines with the Bren is a real advantage for troops, hence my comment above. Having every section member using magazines (even if they have reduced capacity, of say ten rounds) that can be used by your LMG as well as their individual weapon works both ways, as the large capacity lmg magazine can if needed be used in the rifle.
Regarding the time taken to get the Bren into series production it is worth reminding ourselves that when the WD adopted the Bren in 1935 there was no imperative to get it into production quickly. this only really began to change in 1937 and it was only the Munich Crisis in 1938 that really ceased peace time production thinking.
Regarding the time taken to get the Bren into series production it is worth reminding ourselves that when the WD adopted the Bren in 1935 there was no imperative to get it into production quickly. this only really began to change in 1937 and it was only the Munich Crisis in 1938 that really ceased peace time production thinking.
Oh I see where you are coming from
You however replied to a comment about the BESA (both the 7.92 and 15mm) machine guns - which because they were not conversions and developed from a 7.92mm weapon to a .303 one and because of the political environment and the purse strings being opened did not take long about a year and they made enough to equip all British made tanks which was its only purpose.
My answers were only referring to those 2 weapons
Regarding the Bren gun - this was during peace time and straddled the great depression and I suspect lack of funding drove a large part of the delays - just look at the Garand - it took 12 years until adopted in 1936 and even then arguably not really issued in numbers until 1942.
There was no perceived rush for the Bren gun
I note that during wartime weapon development is rapid - the development and adoption of the M1 Carbine for example is case in point.
Garand had a couple of issues.
First the persistence of using a gas trap,
And
Converting from .276 to .30-06. bending the operating rod around the bigger "magazine" messed up garand's original mechanism.
With .276 it could have been in service much sooner.
M1 carbine had no gas trap 🙂
Reloading using enbloc clips is faster than using a magazine and unblock clips are easier to carry etc
Also Magazines are a risk and historically are responsible for the majority of jamming issues
Good ones such as the Bren Gun mags are also heavy
I would stick with the encloc clips and have the section carry the 25 odd Bren gun mags across the section (that's 750 rounds or more accurately 700 rounds as the mags were only loaded to 28 rounds ready to go) and that should be enough for the sections needs
Low hanging fruit for getting an SLR into service is the Vickers Pederson rifle as this came marginally close to being adopted in the early 30s
Have the British adopt the rifle and .276 round with its 10 round enbloc clip
The Bren is adopted also in this calibre upon its introduction
Known as the Number 4 rifle a lighter cut down 'cavalry carbine' variant officially known as the No 5 carbine is introduced in 1942 and by wars end 1946 production of the 'junglie' had exceed that of the 'long rifle' and became the main post war issued weapon to most commonwealth units (and the only one issued to Australian units)
While there was some concern about replacing .303 and delays in production running the risk of units using a mix of Bren gun and Vickers Pederson rifles alongside Lewis guns and SMLEs this was never actually an issue in practice and while some units did use a mix of weapons
Australian troops of the 2nd AIF did deploy to French Indo China armed with .303 weapons in 1941 but as one veteran of that campaign pointing out that they operated as a self contained formation and soldiers in his platoon alone were equipped with a range of weapons in other calibres such as US Tommy guns in .45, Owen guns and British BSA-Kiraly Machine carbines in 9x25mm and US M1 Carbines in .30 carbine.
And that was before they adopted the 'Junglie' SLR
Ammunition was issued in 10 round enbloc clips and supplied from factory in bandoliers each with 6 clips similar to the US ones show here
Note these were rarely carried 'slung' as they could easily catch on stuff and instead they would fold up and be placed in one of the soldiers chest pouches on their 37 Pattern webbing or later vests with another bandolier or 2 stashed in their pack - each soldier usually carried a pair of Bren gun magazines for the sections LMG (usually in their other chest pouch) and the majority of the rounds carried would be used to refill empty magazines as the sections LMG used them up.
Indeed it is said that if a section found itself down to 30 rounds or less they would all be in the last Bren gun magazine!
A clip or 2 was usually attached to the sling or later in the war to pouches added to the stock allowing for fast reloads
The Vickers-Armstrong Pedersen Rifle was approximately 44-inches long, weighing 9 lbs. While an exquisitely designed rifle it suffered from a number of shortcomings including the need for a special process of lubricating ammunition and the action’s inherent momentary blocking of the sight picture. The downfall of the Pedersen was its complexity, inability to chamber the larger .30-06 round and the need for lubrication of ammunition in order to function.
That is all true
But the real reason was that the original 1923 contract stated that the US Government would have to pay Pederson royalties for every unit delivered while there was no such agreement for the Garand
At the end of the day it was mainly down to $ deciding the Garand was the winner which was made before the decision to switch to 30-06 - by which point Garand was the only gun left in the competition having already been deemed the winner
Both weapons worked very well during the earlier trials in .276 and the extra complexity of the Pederson along with the toggle lock ("It's so fast you don't notice it" - Ian McCulloc) and lubricated ammunition was not a real issue.
As no such contract existed with the British government it would not necessarily be the case that Pederson would get Royalties on every unit made.
Yes its likely to be more expensive than a No4 Lee Enfield, but then pretty much any SLR of the day is going to be and it was more complex than a Garand - but it worked and the manufacturing of the weapon already existed in the UK.
There are never ‘enough’ rounds but the Bren was the principal section weapon and having the riflemen use the same round adds to the possible resource to draw upon. Not to mention the reloading Bren magazines from the bandoliers carried by the riflemen, from which they reload their rifles. Having said that the Sten was replacing some of the rifles later in the war.
The comparison British use of Mannlicher en bloc or Mauser chargers is the cumbersome nature of the Mannlicher in a cloth bandolier compared to the thin Mauser chargers. The Americans kept their en blocs in their webbing, but then they did not have pouches full of Bren magazines. Individually I prefer the Mannlicher mode but the British army was Bren lead and demanded the pouches be full of Bren magazines (and grenades) so needed a thin charger for the rifles so as to be able to wear the cloth bandolier as the standard reload resource.
Later, with the L1A1 and L4, they could use each others magazines. There may be a lesson in that. With the L7A2 I recall much filling of ‘57 Pattern pouches with coiled GPMG belts as the GPMG reserve supply and ending up with reloading magazines in the field from chargers in cotton bandoliers and squeezing magazines into pockets.