The challenge is to make a Breton nobleman conquer England like William the bastard, the pod is from Alan I the great of britanny (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_I,_King_of_Brittany) onwards.
AHC: A Breton William the Bastard
- Thread starter Math
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dcharles
Banned
Idk that there's much to this.
William was just a lying psychopath with money, a good marriage, some military ability and charisma.
He didn't have a legit claim or anything, he had just been around Edward long enough that he could plausibly claim that Edward had promised the throne to him.
Which is about as valid as me claiming that I'm the legitimate president because Obama told me I was his boy.
So it's not crazy to imagine that a Breton instead of a Norman has all those characteristics.
William was just a lying psychopath with money, a good marriage, some military ability and charisma.
He didn't have a legit claim or anything, he had just been around Edward long enough that he could plausibly claim that Edward had promised the throne to him.
Which is about as valid as me claiming that I'm the legitimate president because Obama told me I was his boy.
So it's not crazy to imagine that a Breton instead of a Norman has all those characteristics.
Edward spent substantial portions of his life in Normandy and had lived for decades as an exile, he admired Norman culture greatly most evidenced by the construction of Westminster Abbey in Norman architectural style, his mother was a Norman and through her he was related to William. Being a distant cousin he was at least closer in relation than Harold who only owed his claim to his family's immense wealth, besides the right of conquest is a valid enough reason to rule in the period, perhaps Harold should have thought more carefully about his choice to go holiday in Normandy.
No real idea how to achieve this, but if it happens, Norman Yolk theory is replaced with Briton Revenge theory as historians blame the excesses of Breton William on a deep-seated desire for revenge against the English.
Interesting, how do you think the Welsh would react to this British conqueror in a hypothetical success scenario, even more so if the conqueror declares himself a descendant of Conan Meriadoc(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conan_Meriadoc)?
dcharles
Banned
It is interesting. FWIW, although the Breton lords were known to be gentler than the Normans, there doesn't seem to be much fraternal nationalist sentiment with the Cornish that gets passed down to us in written form.
There is this poem (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armes_Prydein) from the 10th century where the Welsh poet calls for an alliance between the British and non-English peoples against England, he quotes Meriadoc and the Britons of britanny (called llydaw).
Well a larger and more stable duchy of Brittany would be helpful, so i say begin with having Alan II's illegitimate sons die early. That way when Duke Drogo dies young, Judicael Berengar Count of Rennes becomes Duke of Brittany with little dispute.
From there though the history of France looks really messy and I'm not sure how to best position Brittany to be able to act in England
From there though the history of France looks really messy and I'm not sure how to best position Brittany to be able to act in England
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William had no realistic claim to the English throne not being a blood descendant of an earlier King, one of the qualifying criteria to be a King in Anglo-Saxon England. Even his wife, Matilda of Flanders, had a better claim being descended from Alfred the Great.
As to being Edward the Confessor's preferred successor that was a thing of the past since Edward's nephew, Walter of the Vexim, son of Edward's sister Goda, died in a Norman dungeon in 1063 alongside his missus. Their "crime"? Count Walter was invited to succeed Count Walter II of Maine by the local nobles despite William's claims that Count Walter had promised the County of Maine to him.
Sounds familiar
Edward the Confessor was known, despite his later saintly reputation, to bear grudges for ill deeds committed against his family. His feud with Earl Godwin, Harold's father over the death of the Atheling Alfred, his (Edward's)brother being a case in point. In fact I could believe that Edward nominated Harold as his successor as an act of spite against both William and Harold!
We should also consider that Count Walter was imprisoned at about the time that Harold is reputed to have made his ill-fated visit to Normandy. As Edward the Confessor's right hand man with a reputation for diplomacy he would be the ideal intermediary to be sent to neither negotiate the release of Count Walter or else advise William that due to the death of Walter and his wife that the deal was off!
Harold Godwinson would argue otherwise.
England had nearly 30 years of Danish rule before the Confessor, who was more Norman than Anglo-Saxon, and the only male-line descendant of Alfred still alive was more Hungarian than anything else. At the end of the day, William had as much claim to the throne as anyone else because frankly no one had a good claim.
dcharles
Banned
No, he didn't, because he wasn't elected, and the Saxons elected their kings.
Doesn't matter how many personal connections someone has to Emanuel Macron, if they aren't elected, they're not the legitimate French president. Conversely, it doesn't matter if someone's a weak candidate. If they win the election, they win.
That's putting it a bit strongly, I think. Yes, Saxon kings were elected, but there was a strong preference for electing a close relative (usually a son) of the deceased king, in a way that isn't the case in modern democracies.
A better analogy, I think, would be ancient Rome, where emperors were technically elected but in practice the empire was hereditary unless the emperor died without heirs. William the Conqueror would then be analogous to one of those provincial generals who managed to get declared emperor by his troops and seize power in Rome.
Said Hungarian had the best claim. He’s called an Aetheling for good reason. It doesn’t matter what culture he is, it’s his paternal descent that mattered the most.
dcharles
Banned
I mean, that's true about relatives of the king getting preference, but they had an electoral system for cases just like these. It's the major advantage of elected monarchy. But it was their system, William did not participate in it. He overturned it. The Roman analogy is weak. William did not seek continuity with the old system. He was a foreigner who spoke a foreign language and imposed a foreign system of government and foreign rulers. It's much closer to the barbarian invasions of Rome than a Roman civil war.
No William the Conqueror very much tried to tie his rule to that of the in his eyes legitimate predecessor Edward the Confessor. Not the rule of the in his eyes usurper Harold Godwinson.
Harold too made some dubious moves, combining his coronation with the burial of his predecessor, indicates he too needed to move quickly in his powergrab.
Edward the Confessor, son of Emma of Normandy, spend his long exile at the ducal court of Normandy. As an exile it’s not inconceivable he made such a promise to William. Though as king he had sent for Edgar the Atheling, if he would have been a bit older, then I sure Edward preferred him over either Harold, William or Harald.
William had a troubled childhood, he had become duke as a child, one of his guardians was murdered. He often had to fight a few times to assert his control over the duchy, by the time of the conquest he was in control. William’s conquest was brutal, but not unlike the force he used to regain control over Normandy.
Initially he tried to also work with the existing structure, while also rewarding his followers. The latter was partially solved, by seizing the lands of those, who took up arms against him their new king for high treason.
We’re not yet at the scale of The harrying of the North, that was a gradual process. Each revolt was crushed using an increasing amount of force.
Harold too made some dubious moves, combining his coronation with the burial of his predecessor, indicates he too needed to move quickly in his powergrab.
Edward the Confessor, son of Emma of Normandy, spend his long exile at the ducal court of Normandy. As an exile it’s not inconceivable he made such a promise to William. Though as king he had sent for Edgar the Atheling, if he would have been a bit older, then I sure Edward preferred him over either Harold, William or Harald.
William had a troubled childhood, he had become duke as a child, one of his guardians was murdered. He often had to fight a few times to assert his control over the duchy, by the time of the conquest he was in control. William’s conquest was brutal, but not unlike the force he used to regain control over Normandy.
Initially he tried to also work with the existing structure, while also rewarding his followers. The latter was partially solved, by seizing the lands of those, who took up arms against him their new king for high treason.
We’re not yet at the scale of The harrying of the North, that was a gradual process. Each revolt was crushed using an increasing amount of force.
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