I don't really think it'd make much difference, as instating hereditary monarchy=immediate civil war.
WI: Bona Sforza doesn't fall of her horse.
- Thread starter Mccdtk
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I don't really think it'd make much difference, as instating hereditary monarchy=immediate civil war.
I wonder if Sigismund could pull through that.
Though a civil war in Poland (regardless of outcome) means they'd probably stay out of the Russian Troubles. Sweden might have a try at their own Tsar.
And then there's Thirty Years War. I wonder if the Habsburgs and the Catholic League can deal with the protestants if both Sweden and Poland are neutral in the conflict.
1) In Poland name Mary was at the time reserved for Virgin Mary, girls were not given this name, as it was seen as blasphemy (just like name Jesus is in most of Christian world).
2) Bona's second son would be Albert II. His uncle John Albert (who used mostly his second name) would be counted as Albert I.
As long as Jagiellons have hereditary Lithuania there is no need to risk a civil war. At this point it is already unthinkable that someone other than Grand Duke of Lithuania could be elected anyway.
Noted.
So it's something like what happened with the numbering of Sigismunds and Augustuses, where Sigismund II Augustus is also counted as Augustus I?
At the time of POD it's not a give ToT is not a given.
Well, they had hereditary Lithuania but they still tried for example vivente rege election of Sigismund II.
Do you'd think the jagiellons give up on it then, or do think that they'd go for it anyways? Because sometimes monarchs just pursue a goal regardless of if it actually makes good sense to do so.
Well, people are not always acting rational.
For example different Livonian War and one of Ivan IV's other sons surviving would butterfly it.
For the sake of simplicity I don't think ToT would be butterflied. I mean, obviously every event determines the future, but I just don't see any specific POD so to speak that could for example change the outcome of the Livonian War
Well, it's hard to argue with what author wants, so yeah, full blown civil war would probably hinder any Polish involvement in ToT and probably Godunov dynasty would stay in power.
I have to agree with @Zygmunt Stary, an attempt to introduce hereditary monarchy at this time (16-17th century) = civil war
You *could* maybe get away with doing some sort of "elective but within a family" thing sorta like tanistry, maaaybe?
You *could* maybe get away with doing some sort of "elective but within a family" thing sorta like tanistry, maaaybe?
I retract my previous statement. The Livonian War absolutely could have gone differently, I'm just an ignorant buffoon. It turns out all the same as Albert is a competent leader ITTL, but this just shows how much I still have to learn.
Talking about Godunov, is it certain he'd hold on to the throne? He was quite unpopular towards the end of his reign
It is certainly somewhat of an option.
What I am curious about is if Sigismund could win in case he were to act "irrationally" and push for hereditary.
No need to be harsh on yourself (or ironic, I don't know what your intentions are), and Godunov himself held on until he died, the difference is with Polish magnates being embroiled in civil war, his son Fyodor II, might be not deposed and retain the throne.
Pulled an all-nighter today so that was me being harsh. I could have at least read the wikipedia page before posting (so that I'd know Stephen Bathory played a major role in winning the war)
The Swedish aren't unlikely to get involved, are they? I know John IV isn't his uncle but I'm sure he'd be interested in snatching Karelia and Novgorod, even if through a proxy monarch.
Only issue I could see is that Sweden might go through their own trouble over John III's coversion and getting rid of Charles and his opposition.
Who is John IV? Did he exist IOTL (if you mean the son of John III and Gunnilda Bielke, he'd have his half brother, OTL Sigismund III ahead of him, that is if Catherine is still married to John III).
And Sweden wasn't really much of a military powerhouse prior to Gustav II's reforms.
At this point I am heavily referring to the family tree I produced with the much appreciated help (the intermingling of ruling houses in Europe gives me a headache sometimes, honestly) of the members of this discussion . John IV, ie. TTL's John III's oldest son by Anna of Poland, Albert (II)'s daughter.
They still managed to reach Novgorod. The boyars even asked them to give them a tsar.