The eagle's left head

House Vatatzes would certainly be loath to let this happen. Not least since Messina was the center of Greek Sicily in the era, besides being the largest city in the despotate. Syracuse may be capital, not least due to chance in the original takeover by Alexandros and on account of its defensibility but Messina is economically much more important.
would catania eventually take over Messina or would Messina be the bigger city perpetually? Also would they move the capital from Syracuse or would they just stay in Syracuse/expand the usable area?
The east also happened to be largely royal demenses and smallholders. TTL Frederick does run two thirds of Sicily directly. How wel he'd do so given his proclivities in OTL is something of an open question. But one notes that the combination of his policies and the black death ended up with the population of Sicily dropping by two thirds. So affecting the demographic evolution of the island potentially could have major effects.
tbf its more what Alexandros does that may change things from otl. If Greek immigration picks up after the Ottomans strike and break the Empire there's a good chance the island becomes majority Greek due to the migrations triggered by the invasions. After all even if the Vatatzes have old Hellas there isn't enough space for everyone. We prob would have some lombards left tho.

Losing two thirds of your population is quite insane tbf.
I'm inclined to call him a more calculating and diplomatic version of his brother, he was raised in a much more difficult environment after all. And to remember Napoleon about his marshals... lucky of course. What this means for his relation with Frederick... Constance II was his first cousin which makes Frederick his nephew. Given he is personally loyal to his own, as seen by extricating Philanthropenos or for that matter the fate of Lauria, there is a good question on how he viewed leaving Calabria out of the treaty, though leaving Calabria out in OTL did not stop the Sicilians from refusing to remove their garrisons actually in Sicily, so a degree of subtlety can be expected here. The other interesting question is how Frederick views his Greek uncle. After all he had a fair degree of hero worship for his father and said father famously or infamously told Constance that her plans for marrying their daughter to Andronicus II would be demeaning to the house of Barcelona.
I think it makes the most sense that if Frederick moves against him Alexandros will react but otherwise Alexandros won't betray his nephew.
 
In Calabria also lead and mercury, the cinnabar mines are in use since the neolithic. And in eastern Sicily sulphur and asphalt as well.
I am under the impression that during byzantine times, Calabria had also some copper production. However, it seemed to have been much less important than e.g. iron and silver.

and what remains of the Greek service aristocracy from Norman times.
Actually this is quite interesting. They can form a bureaucracy firmly loyal to the Vatatzes dynasty and spread again greek education in the realm.

n. But one notes that the combination of his policies and the black death ended up with the population of Sicily dropping by two thirds. So affecting the demographic evolution of the island potentially could have major effects.
If Vatatzes takes over the rest of the island and he crushes the barons while establishing order, then there will be much reduced migration towards the cities. A population that is less concentrated in overcrowded cities and more evenly spread, will have somewhat losses from the plagues. Moreover, if Calabria and Morea are part of the Despotate in mid-14th century, then there will be a lot of highlanders who will have escaped the plague. They can repopulate the lowlands and the cities, up to a degree at least. An age-old story of mediterranean demography.

The other interesting question is how Frederick views his Greek uncle. After all he had a fair degree of hero worship for his father and said father famously or infamously told Constance that her plans for marrying their daughter to Andronicus II would be demeaning to the house of Barcelona.
This hero worship seems problematic. Vatatzes might be a kinsman, but he is the one that has stolen much of the thunder of Peter and James, along with a third of their realm. He has been overshadowing three monarchs of the House of Barcelona for 2 decades now. The fact that he is a schismatic Greek and thus beneath the dignity of his House must be quite grinding for Frederick.
 
Part 23
Syracuse, January 1303

Normally Andronicus II would had been loath to require help from the west in general and Alexandros Doukas Vatatzes in particular, given the... ambiguous status of the despot within the imperial hierarchy. In theory the polite fiction that Alexandros was under imperial authority was maintained. In practice Constantinople could not exert any actual power on the despot and Andronicus was wary of his relative since the time they were children. But the defeat at Bapheus and the collapsing Byzantine position in Asia Minor did not leave him much option. Byzantine ambassadors had reached Messina late the previous year. With Alexandros on campaign and then negotiating the treaty of Salerno, they had had to wait on Alexandros for several months. But now Alexandros was back and negotiations progressed apace...

Rome, April 4th, 1303

The previous November, Boniface VIII had issued a bull proclaiming that both spiritual and temporal power were under his jurisdiction, and that kings were subordinate to the power of the church. That the French crown, which was the ultimate target of the bull was unimpressed, had been unsurprising. Now the pope doubled down excommunicating all persons who were impeding French clerics from coming to the Holy See. While this did not include king Philip IV by name, it was not deceiving anyone either. But this was not Boniface's sole problem. Charles II in Naples had dared to make not one but two peace treaties with the Sicilians on his own. Boniface did not approve. But some amends had to be made. And perhaps Charles in his incompetence had solved the problem of the king who held Sicily being too strong by accident since now Sicily was effectively split in two between Frederick and Vatatzes. This had potential. The interdict on the entirety of Sicily was lifted and papal nuncios would be sent to Palermo and Syracuse.

Anagni, September 7th, 1303


Boniface VIII had excommunicated Philip IV and his ministers. In response Philip had his keeper of the seal Guillaume de Nogaret and Sciarra Colonna lead a force of 2,000 mercenaries into Anagni, the pope's residence capturing the pope outright. The pope would be released after being maltreated for three days but would never manage to overcome the shock from his capture and mistreatment, in was no small thing when you claimed to be the political and spiritual leader of Christedom, for your flock to dare not just to disobey you but attack you directly. He would die in October 11th. On the 22nd Benedict XI would succeed him as pope. One of the sole two cardinals to stand by the late Boniface, Benedict would try to mend fences with the French king, but with mixed effects.

Constantinople, September 1303


The Grand Catalan Company, 5,000 foot and 1,500 horse marched through the streets of Constantinople Ioannis Doukas Vatatzes and Roger de Flor at the head of the column. Thirty nine galleys in the pay of the Despotate of Sicily had brought the company to the empire to take up service with the empire. If Andronicus was concerned by the presence of his grandnephew he gave no sign of it. Ioannis was after all in the Queen of Cities ostensibly bringing help and to be confirmed as despot. It was better to go along and hopefully see the troublesome brat return away to Sicily in a few months. Ioannis would be confirmed as despot and Roger as megas doux a few days later.

Cyzicus, October 1303

The company had begun its work for the empire by attacking the Genoese quarter of Constantinople. Soon after it had crossed to Asia Minor attacking and defeating the Turks near Cyzicus. Roger's orders were to relieve the siege of Philadelpheia. But it was too late in the campaign season to do so at the moment. Most of the Catalans would pass the winter quartered around Cyzicus while Roger returned to Constantinople and his new wife Maria Asen, a niece of the emperor.

Constantinople, December 1303


Just as the Catalans could not campaign in the middle of winter to the relief of Philadelpheia, so the Sicilian fieet could not sail back to Sicily till spring. Which mean that Andronicus had to contend with one Ioannis Vatatzes gallivanting around Constantinople. Some of the youngster's actions like buying manuscripts by the carload were not cause for concern, if his father wanted to waste his money on books why should that matter? Others like visiting John IV, a monk in a monastery near Constantinople for the past several decades, had been very concerning but had to be expected, after all Lascaris was his first cousin and Andronicus a very pious man could understand the familial sentiment. The Lascarid loyalists flocking Vatatzes way as soon as his fleet had brought the Catalans to Asia Minor and news that a Lascaris was leading said fleet were a different matter. Ioannis, closely followed around had maintained propriety at all times, perhaps calculating that he was in no position to threaten the emperor, perhaps out of genuinely not having any ambition to do so. But he hadn't turned back the people, for the most part refugees, coming to him. If things continued this way his fleet would be full to the brims when it sailed back to Sicily in the spring...
 
eBut he hadn't turned back the people, for the most part refugees, coming to him. If things continued this way his fleet would be full to the brims when it sailed back to Sicily in the spring...
Well, even if remembering to what OTL actions would results from his mistrust/fears, it gave very bad vibes for Ioannis life expectancy... But, perhaps Ionannis, could manage to convince, to the Emperor, or at least to somebody from his inner circle, that transporting these willing to leave... Would be in fact making a favor to the Empire,t hat wouldn't have to worry anymore for potential troublemakers/unrest...
 
Well, even if remembering to what OTL actions would results from his mistrust/fears, it gave very bad vibes for Ioannis life expectancy... But, perhaps Ionannis, could manage to convince, to the Emperor, or at least to somebody from his inner circle, that transporting these willing to leave... Would be in fact making a favor to the Empire,t hat wouldn't have to worry anymore for potential troublemakers/unrest...
Young Vatatzes himself has three life insurance policies that Roger did not have... the Sicilian fleet in the docks, his father back in Syracuse and his father in law to be back in Naples. Attacking him would be an act of war... which does not necessarily mean Andronicus might not do it if he felt sufficiently afraid, only that it would have FAR more serious consequences than just offing a mere mercenary commander.
 
Does the Vatatzes legally hold any land courtesy of the emperor?What is with the expectation that their were nominally still subject to the imperial throne?

Also, if Young John were to seize Constantinople with that 6.5k army they’ve got does Andronikos II even have the means of fighting back? Awfully confident to let them into the city.That is a force larger than anything Andronikos could raise.
 
Last edited:
Does the Vatatzes legally hold any land courtesy of the emperor?What is with the expectation that their were nominally still subject to the imperial throne?
I think they're called despots because of the emperor, so no really other than legal fiction. Normally the emperors would have more power on whatever is happening in Sicily but andronikos took down his own navy soooo. You know it's bad when your vassal has a navy and you don't.
Young Vatatzes himself has three life insurance policies that Roger did not have... the Sicilian fleet in the docks, his father back in Syracuse and his father in law to be back in Naples. Attacking him would be an act of war... which does not necessarily mean Andronicus might not do it if he felt sufficiently afraid, only that it would have FAR more serious consequences than just offing a mere mercenary commander.
I don't like the fact that ionnias is in the ERE, it feels like he would have to fight for his life to get out, because if he acknowledges the power of alexandros' navy once more he literally is showing why he's weak asf. I could see him killing ionnias out of that need.
 
I think they're called despots because of the emperor, so no really other than legal fiction. Normally the emperors would have more power on whatever is happening in Sicily but andronikos took down his own navy soooo. You know it's bad when your vassal has a navy and you don't.

I don't like the fact that ionnias is in the ERE, it feels like he would have to fight for his life to get out, because if he acknowledges the power of alexandros' navy once more he literally is showing why he's weak asf. I could see him killing ionnias out of that need.
The thing is that killing young John won't do Andronikos II any good since young John has a large family in Sicily who could invade. They are not a mercenary group that could potentially just dissolve once you kill their leader. The Big Man who has the real claim to the throne is still in Sicily itself and he has other sons. The question is why he thought it would be a good idea for someone with a better claim to the throne than himself to have a large army operating within his borders.
 
Last edited:
The thing is that killing young John won't do Andronikos II any good since young John has a large family in Sicily who could invade. They are not a mercenary group that could potentially just dissolve once you kill their leader. The Big Man who has the real claim to the throne is still in Sicily itself and he has other sons. The question is why he thought it would be a good idea for someone with a better claim to the throne than himself to have a large army operating within his borders.
He was desperate and asked for mercenaries. Along the mercenaries received more than he expected for, again, in the form of younger Vatatzes. In the immortal words of admiral Shannon Foraker, Republic of Haven Navy... oops.
 
He was desperate and asked for mercenaries. Along the mercenaries received more than he expected for, again, in the form of younger Vatatzes. In the immortal words of admiral Shannon Foraker, Republic of Haven Navy... oops.
Does he have to let them into Constantinople though? Not the first time a Latin army caused massive problems, and they are led by a claimant to his throne nonetheless.That part was weird.Not even the Komnenians dared to let the Latin soldiers into the city, and even then they had a massive army stationed in the city itself just to keep an eye on the Latin army.
 
Does he have to let them into Constantinople though? Not the first time a Latin army caused massive problems, and they are led by a claimant to his throne nonetheless.That part was weird.Not even the Komnenians dared to let the Latin soldiers into the city, and even then they had a massive army stationed in the city itself just to keep an eye on the Latin army.
Well as it happens he DID let the Catalan company in OTL and even let it attack the Genoese of Galata. Which granted Andronicus disliked but letting a mercenary army attacking segments of the empire's capital on its own volition is... shall we say problematic?
 
Well as it happens he DID let the Catalan company in OTL and even let it attack the Genoese of Galata. Which granted Andronicus disliked but letting a mercenary army attacking segments of the empire's capital on its own volition is... shall we say problematic?
Tbf if anything we'd just see the empire crumble by the hands of andronikos and his descendants, there's no way the empire stays put after such humiliating defeats and poor leadership.
 
Something that popped in mind is the possibility of peasant revolts in Val di Mazara. In contrast to OTL, the rural communities of western Sicily have close by a different paradigm - the lascarid one, where free holders are supported by the state and are actively encouraged. In TTL they can compare this system to the baronial one, especially a baronial system with lots of feuds and petty wars errupting all around the place.
 
Something that popped in mind is the possibility of peasant revolts in Val di Mazara. In contrast to OTL, the rural communities of western Sicily have close by a different paradigm - the lascarid one, where free holders are supported by the state and are actively encouraged. In TTL they can compare this system to the baronial one, especially a baronial system with lots of feuds and petty wars errupting all around the place.
tbf I can see peasant revolts eventually being the reason why the Vatatzes take over the whole island with a select few nobles from the former baronial system staying and becoming loyal servants of the Despotate.
 
Part 24
St. Nicola di Pergario Abbey, Sicily, March 1304

The abbey belonged to the Basilian order and was close to baron land.This could be a potentially lethal combination. Honorius IV had proclaimed the Basilian archimandrite deposed, it went of course without saying that he had not recognized any of the Basilian bishops installed by Alexandros, and had stripped the Basilian church of all its holdings. That Honorius proclamation was completely ignored within the despotate had been a polite description, covering more extreme reactions. The same should had been normally expected over hostile papal declarations in the rest of Sicily. But in this case the Sicilian barons thought otherwise. If the Basilians had been stripped of their holdings, it mean that said holdings were up for grabs. What after all could a bunch of Greek monks do about it? And thus the barons near St Nicola had gone on the warpath, or the chicken thievery path if someone was less charitable, raiding and pillaging the abbey's land. Furious complaints had flown from Syracuse to Palermo. Admonitions had flown from Palermo to the barons, Frederick was pious and did not want to alienate the despot, and promptly ignored, the barons knew the king depended on them. And thus one more raiding party came to visit the abbey. A single raider would come back to report the fate the Cretans who had ambushed them had dealt to the rest. Not every baron would understand the lesson from its first iteration. Some would go complain to Palermo in turn when the stradioti did not just limit themselves to beating back the raids but returned them with interest. But it would be learned sooner rather than later. Asia Minor and Crete had been a rather harsher school than Sicily in the petty warfare business after all...

Hagia Sophia, April 6th, 1304


Ioannis Doukas Vatatzes was prominent behind Andronicus II and Michael IX in the Easter mass. The young despot had not been in a hurry to return to Sicily in the middle of winter but had promised his hosts he would be sailing back after celebrating Easter in Constantinople. Preparations were in full swing and if Michael IX in particular could not wait for Vatatzes to be gone in order to begin his campaign against the Bulgarians, as his father wanted Michael's army in Constantinople till Vatatzes left he did not show it in public or even to Vatatzes in person. How much Ioannis was fooled by this was anyone's guess, but when his fleet finally sailed of at the end of the month it was on friendly terms with the imperial family.

Cyzicus, May 1304


Roger de Flor at the head of an army of 7,000 men begun his campaign to relieve the siege of Philadelpheia. Roger would successfully relieve Philadelpheia and advance east before falling back to the city but his abuse of the people on his own side, including beheading the commander of the fortress of Kula and stabbing with a sword one of his fellow generals would gain him few allies...

Chios, June 1304


Ioannis Vatatzes had sailed out from Constantinople in the end of April. His fleet, reinforced by a number of hired merchant galleys had not been particularly fast as it treaded south and made a stop to support Ephesus which had come under Turkish attack. It was at Ephesus that Ioannis had received the news that Benedetto Zaccaria was attacking Chios. For whom the old Genoese was working for, was somewhat fuzzy on paper, he had been made admiral by Philip IV of France two years earlier, but all to clear in practice, he was out to grab territory for himself. But if Chios, one of the richest islands in the Aegean was to fall to a Genoese adventurer why not fall to an ambitious young despot instead? And thus the Sicilians instead of sailing west had sailed north again. Zaccaria's small fleet, taken by surprise had been dispersed and the Chians had thrown open their gates for Vatatzes who had followed his takeover of Chios by seizing the nearly deserted island of Kos and Samos settling Asia Minor refugees on both. Back in Constantinople Andronicus unable to do anything without a fleet and with bigger troubles close to home, where Michael IX had been defeated by Theodore Svetoslav of Bulgaria had pretended to accept Ioannis excuses granting Ioannis Chios as a fief for two years. Soon the two years would be made ten years...

Andravida, Principality of Achaea, July 1304


The news of Charles II making the principality of Achaea the dowry of his youngest daughter had not been taken well by princess Isabella and her third husband Philip of Savoy. Thus Philip had come with a plan. If he defeated the Greeks of Mystra and recovered their territory, the barons of the principality would come firmly on his side and make his position on the throne unassailable, hopefully even Charles would change his mind at news of his success after all he couldn't be very happy about giving the principality to Vatatzes. But warring against the imperial army in Mystra needed money. So taxation within the principality had sharply gone up to finance Philip's campaign to be. When the barons had balked at this Philip had been forced to call a parliament in Andravida.Of course said parliament did nothing to assuage the Greek peasantry which crushed by taxes and baronial demands kept grumbling...

Syracuse, August 1304


Ioannis Vatatzes was finally back to his hometown, while born in Constantinople he had been raised in Syracuse. The grilling he had received from his father and uncle, and his grandmother for that matter, was probably to be expected. But both Alexandros and Philanthropenos didn't have any reason to be unhappy with him. They had unburdened themselves from their bothersome mercenary problem, let Andronicus deal with the Catalans now and secured his title of despot. The settlers brought back to Sicily were a nice boon, loyal people with skills that could be useful particularly in the aftermath of two decades of war. And his action in Chios while perhaps rash had been a nice and totally unexpected boon. The little domain carved out in the Aegean had revenues of 120,000 hyperpyra a year, sufficient to keep two dozen war galleys in operation...

Syracuse, December 25th, 1304


Robert of Anjou was back in Syracuse, this time as a guest accompanying his sister on behalf of his father. The marriage of the 24 year old Ioannis Doukas Vatatzes and Maria of Anjou, 10 years his junior would take place in Christmas eve...
 
The little domain carved out in the Aegean had revenues of 120,000 hyperpyra a year, sufficient to keep two dozen war galleys in operation...
And, also, they would be an excellent Aegean naval bases close to Constantinople and, perhaps most important, they would if necessary, form, (if adequately fortified) near ideal staging points near the Anatolian coasts for eventual campaigns there...
 
This whole chapter is really good for the Vatatzes as a whole, and I like it.

First, we have the degrading stability of Frederick's reign, which will little by little destroy the kingdom until Alexandros has the ability to quite simply stablish himself as defacto leader due to the overwhelming disunity of the rest of the Island.

Ioannis conquering the islands in the Aegean is extremely nice, and I just know those two dozen war galleys will make a massive difference when we get to the next war. And there is also the chaos of Achaea and its attempt at expansion, that if it works will make the price higher and if it fails will make the conquest a breeze.

Thank you for the chapter.
 
Top