The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery
- Thread starter CalBear
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The only way, IMO, that you get the sort of partnership that created the A4 is a war (or an alien invasion, maybe an ice age).
Ice age it is then
Between talking mammoths and The Day After Tomorrow I can only see good things coming from this!
...also a whole lot of deaths lol
I mean no disrespect to the author by any means but I personally think that the A4 would be unlikely to exist in any scenario, including this timeline, except as an alt-NATO. I think realistically that the appalling number of lives lost combined with a lack of an enemy ideology in the form of communism would dampen, not heighten, any appetite for interventionism.
If someone like Hitler never came to power then I have serious doubts that the A4 would ever emerge. The entire premise of the group was a strong military alliance (much stronger than even something like NATO) that would police the entire world in order to prevent the rise of an empire like the Nazis (after they caused massive devastation to humanity). Without the Nazis, I don't think something like the A4 would be under consideration even by the Allies unless the Soviets prove to be particularly heinous under someone like Stalin or Trotsky.
Yeah I figured that'd be the consensus and I dont disagree with it
Wonder if the answer would be different if this was the Pre-1900 forum though, considering how limiting sticking to 20th Century PODs can be, but I suppose it helps the discussion by avoiding "well with a ancient enough POD you can create anything" trope
Good explanation.
It appears that the AANW world is definitely more advanced than OTL, considering there are exosuits, orbital weapons, and bases on the moon. Bases on Mars and underwater cities are possible here.
I did read the TV Tropes page of AANW and it has a list of actors/celebrities that died or took on a different path:
So in some cases, OTL's "villains" like Saddam, Qaddafi, Castro, and Kim Il-Sung never becomes the dictators they were in OTL.
It looks like music and pop-culture will also develop differently here since the Beatles are butterflied away and Elvis Presley dies in the Warm War.
The loss of Paris to the Reich is definitely going to affect both academic and the fine arts society. Sad to say the Eiffel Tower did not make it beyond the 1950s, along with numerous landmarks that makes up the French cultural identity.
Once the A4 and India find out that Cabal China is developing biological weapons and is planning to do another "world domination" plan, it won't be long until atomic weapons and orbital weapons would rain down on them. Cabal China is the only thing uniting both A4 and India, whom are geopolitical rivals in this world.
Assuming my alt-self is born ITTL, I'd be in Cebu City, Philippines.
Since the Philippines became independent one-year later than OTL in the midst of the "ceasefire" between the Allies and the Reich, I assume it developed much differently than OTL. The Philippines did sent special forces and troops to Europe just like neighboring Vietnam. Most of these special forces saw action against the Japanese and they were able to apply to the Germans. But like their Vietnamese allies, urban warfare in the French climate hindered their progress since both were accustomed to fighting in the tropics.
I'd assume OTL Presidents of the Philippines such as Ferdinand Marcos (disputable), Manuel Roxas, Fidel V. Ramos (Was just a kid in WW2, but served in Korea and Vietnam in OTL), Ramon Magsaysay (resistance fighter before becoming the President in the 1950s), and Carlos P. Garcia probably saw action in Europe. 50/50 of their chances of survival.
The bases at Clark and Subic still remain to this day ITTL since Cabal China is close. Also, a MIRV launching site was placed in Malanao Island near Palawan, which drew protests from India.
Cebu City in 2023 OTL looks like this:
I'd assume Cebu City would look like this much earlier IITL, probably by the 1990s-2000s since cities would become alien to us in compared to OTL due to the development of tech.
For example, New York City in the Images thread for ANNW looks like this:
New York City, as of 2020 and it is one of the largest and most important city in the A4 group.
Is there any infighting within the A4? I read at one point, Britain and America had a disagreement after the Nazis killed the Royal Family in a bombing raid.
It does happen because the POD is in 1943. It even restarted in 1959 with the St. Patrick's Day raid.
Independence Day comes into my mind.
The A4 is basically NATO + U.S. Major Non-NATO allies combined.
The closest to OTL is NATO but the Soviets weren't crazy enough to turn a continent into a wasteland.
I think this world is overall worse because it is so imbalanced and therefore the possibility of a catastrophic future is higher than OTL.
The A4 have secured a worldwide peace ENFORCED BY NUCLEAR WEAPONS (tm), large genocides aren't allowed, and India is very prosperous, but then you've got Cabal-run China being a black hole of misery for 2 billion people and the leadership aiming to completely wipe out the other 5 billion or so or die trying.
To make matters worse, the Nazis "won" in a sense. They finished the Holocaust, basically finished Generalplan Ost, brought the twilight of the gods upon Europe and destroyed Germany beyond any chance of future greatness.
OTL can be infuriating, but at least it's somewhat stable.
And don't forgot how happy A4 is to using of WMDs. It just rocked Stettin due some armed mutiny and mercilessly killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. And only because these protesters wanted end of occupation.
And A4 is pretty hyporcritical. It says being against racism but it is 100% fine call all Germans as nazis. And it wants everybody having self-determination rights but German statelets are not allowed to be fully independent.
Gotta agree that there would be no point in those stories. They've already seen the effects of Nazism in reality. I reckon audience reception would be pretty hostile as a result.
Books about a more decisive Allied victory (without a Hot War) are more likely. As a likely example, I'm thinking of the fictional book A Grasshopper Lies Heavy (from The Man In The High Castle) where the world is split between the British and the Americans (because the Soviets got creamed in this timeline) and so it's a world where the A4 are actually divided and are locked in a Cold War against one another, which could make for an interesting scenario for ITTL alt-history enthusiasts.
I’d argue that the space monopoly they enforce is also a form of racism.
Not really. NATO has done a couple of "humanitarian" interventions but nothing like the A4 is presented in story.
That is a good point, you can easily argue that the A4 is genuinely racist against Germans.
I personally think that while the main story is pretty good I think the post war order is somewhat unrealistic, at least when comparing things to OTL. I said before that I don't think people ATL would want or be able to justify hard handed interventionism again after losing so many people in WWII, and perhaps this is the cynic in me but I think rather than shocking the Allies into being proactive against genocide or wars of aggression that Nazi atrocities would just desensitize people. I think this would have much worse implications for Germany than would be portrayed in the story and that while a fully fledged Morgenthau Plan probably wouldn't happen I think the post war order would turn Germany into a semi-permanent hovel, and considering that in-story they were willing to kill over a quarter of a million noncombatants as late as 2007 to ensure Germany stays disunited I think it's much more plausible then letting them accumulate any kind of wealth or good living standards. Keep in mind that in OTL's 2007 a large number of Americans were disgusted with abuses like Abu Graib while the A4's equivalent population seems less unsettled by a much worse crime.
Regardless as to how Germany would or wouldn't be treated, using OTL as any kind of guide suggests that in a more realistic setting the A4 wouldn't be more kinder and humanistic but assuming they would invest in overseas interventionism they would be lording it over almost the entirety of the globe with near impunity. One only has to look at British conduct in Kenya or the devastation wrought by America in Korea and Vietnam to see what kind of evils this would lead to.
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After seeing what the Nazi Germans did ITTL, it's fair to say the international community would never forgive Germany for the next 1000 years.
I mean who would not be horrified seeing a Wasteland Europe after 20 years of warfare.
An alternate history within an alternate history.
Many times did the U.S. and Britain have disagreements during the War Warm after the German bombing killed the Royal Family. After Germany was defeated, we could have seen an Anglo-American split rather than an A4 world order.
OTL 2007, I still remember watching on the news how angry Americans were at the ongoing war in Iraq. Hence, this is why Barack Obama rose to prominence earlier that year. Especially since he wanted to pull the U.S. out of Iraq and close Guantanamo Bay.
Our world is "fortunate" that WWII lasted only 6 years compared to 20 years of TTL. Because of that, we in OTL have different mindsets.
I could understand why the A4 population aren't sympathetic with the German stateless. One could never forget the horrors the Nazis did to Europe from 1939 to 1960 for TTL. So if the A4 used an orbital weapon to whipe Stettin off the face of the Earth, those for it would say "We're not giving those Germans another chance." To be fair, the people of the A4 were divided of the issue just like OTL Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Darkest? Am I understanding correctly that you consider AANW to be darker than Man in the High Castle (to pick one Axis complete Victory alternate TL)?