Der Kampf: The Rise and Fall of the Austrian Führer
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Any suggestions then? Maybe the Japanese attack the British after the British are more aggressive in their stance to Japan, forcing Japan to feel like they have to declare war. We’re years away in-story from that point but I’d like the basics to ensure we get there.
Well Austria is a small country but I can add another couple of months to it.
Indeed, though I’d prefer a cold Coke myself.
I have been thinking about this, and I think I have a pretty good idea you could use. Basically:
[Note that I am assuming there will be additional prior build-up of tensions between UK and Japan due to a multitude of possible reasons such as Japanese war crimes, diplomatic incidents, espionage, whatever, before all of these events to further make the war more realistic]
Amidst its war in China, Japan unintentionally bombs and sinks a British/majority of passengers British civilian ship, and there are no survivors. The event causes a huge outrage, however; the Japanese quickly issue an apology, force the officer(s) responsible for the fiasco to commit seppuku (or perhaps something less extreme since a Western audience is watching closely) and vow they will ensure no such thing happens again. Families of victims are reimbursed by the Japanese government. Overall, the situation cools down and the Japanese actions are deemed adequate, with no sanctions or very few sanctions being placed on them by the British/collective West. Nonetheless, tensions do increase in the Pacific. Western opinion is degraded even further, already being very low what with the extreme Japanese war crimes and the expansionist policies of Tokyo. [OPTIONAL:] "With regards to the hostile and potentially dangerous situation in the Pacific-East Asia region", the British decide to grant a destroyer (or even smaller ship) escort to the larger civilian ships transitioning East Asian waters.
Days/weeks/months later, the Japanese once more sink a civilian ship, near Hong Kong [if you chose to add the British escort thing, you can say the Destroyer/other escort was also sunk or heavily damaged and retreated]. Now, obviously it's a little convenient and a bit unrealistic for a large British civilian ship to be sunk again within such a short timeframe especially with greater Japanese caution and the Chinese Navy hardly existing, so the following can be considered:
1. It was actually pirates/Chinese using Japanese flags as a cover (in which case the ship cannot have an escort)
2. It was not actually a civilian ship, it was being used by UK to smuggle weapons into China, but of course the British government can't admit that and publicly treats it as a civilian ship.
In all cases, Japan will deny its forces were involved, because it would be either deeply humiliating/genuinely true based on which option you go with above. If it was a weaponry smuggle ship, Japan has no reason to escalate the situation by naming UK specifically, but of course will claim it was a military vessel belonging to unspecified parties.
In all cases, it is a denial of some sort. Regardless of the reality of the situation, this outrage is of course far greater due to this and no one will believe Japan's claims. Japan has few choices, accepting blame after denial could worsen the situation, doubling down on denial could worsen the situation. Meanwhile, the British government does not want to go to war at all, but is under enormous pressure to react in some way. Sanctions are levied against the Japanese.
The Japanese government is now very concerned. A few paranoid factions within it even think the incident was a false-flag op by UK to launch a war against Japan, and most of the government at least sees some possibility of war with Britain. Meanwhile, the British government is looking for an off-ramp to dissipate tensions but there is none, with mounting public pressure and pressure by the opposition to do more than just sanctions. (but no one actually wants war still). Some more, minor military incidents could occur in the meanwhile, such as planes going slightly into the opponent's airspace or the such.
Finally, to 'protect core British interests' it is announced that the British naval garrison in the Pacific will be increased a mediocre amount/slightly, as will its land forces. This move is genuinely meaningless, and the British still have no desire for war. However, the increasingly paranoid Japanese think the British are going to increase their garrisons exponentially in preparation for launching a war, Japanese intelligence overestimates British forces and their manoeuvres (this actually happened in real life too, but with relation to the Soviets) and Japanese High Command goes into absolute panic. Finally, it is decided that the only way they can avoid destruction is to launch a pre-emptive strike first, and deal crippling damage on the British in one huge blow before immediately suing for peace. Japan is backed into a corner which exists only within its own imagination, and so strikes.
The British are shocked at the turn of events. War breaks out.
You know now that I've written it, it does still sound like your original 'a scuffle that gets out of control' idea, so now I've ended up sounding smug, condescending and idiotic all in one go. But still, I think this is a bit more elaborate and makes more sense... but it's just an idea, so let me know if it's really stupid/unrealistic. Best I could come up with though. Maybe to make the history more interesting you could have it so it is never actually known, not even by us, the readers; whether the second ship sunk was sunk by the Japanese, by pirates/the Chinese, or if it was a British/other military smuggling vessel.
Haha, no problem, sorry for being a bit too fussy I'm just a bit of a perfection Sozinat
EDIT:
"Maybe the Japanese attack the British after the British are more aggressive in their stance to Japan, forcing Japan to feel like they have to declare war."
I forgot to mention what you said, yep; exactly this is my idea also.
Yo I've been catching up on this AH and it's been great, specially reread it it flows wonderfully.
One thing that caught my attention has been Lutjens progression into apoliticalness/inaction in contrast's to Hitler's rabid nationalism. I quite like in a an age of revolutionaries and reactionaries having a ''everyman'' POV helps show how biased all the sincere believers are in contrast.
On the reread though one thing that stood out to me was while Hitler very much is meant to show the price of war in that all the blood he will spill that accomplishes little , Lutjens shows the price of peace if that makes sense.
His inaction is not just in politics it infects everything, I can't imagine Hitler ever blindly just hoping a roommate would come along otherwise he's going to be kicked and freeze to death. From him leaving Austria to rot all the way to his relationship with Ursula, not fighting her on naming the daughters ideological names while living in a country that cracks down and see's communist's killed all the time for it. We know at some point Germany's going to erupt in a civil war that see's Austria intervene and use their influence as a result to have a strong client state and I can't see Lutjen's family ending up well as a result.
Though I suppose that's the point in a way, just he represents a more everyone compared to the ideologues he in turn will pay the price for going with the flow like so many normal people will for Hitler's dreams.
One thing that caught my attention has been Lutjens progression into apoliticalness/inaction in contrast's to Hitler's rabid nationalism. I quite like in a an age of revolutionaries and reactionaries having a ''everyman'' POV helps show how biased all the sincere believers are in contrast.
On the reread though one thing that stood out to me was while Hitler very much is meant to show the price of war in that all the blood he will spill that accomplishes little , Lutjens shows the price of peace if that makes sense.
His inaction is not just in politics it infects everything, I can't imagine Hitler ever blindly just hoping a roommate would come along otherwise he's going to be kicked and freeze to death. From him leaving Austria to rot all the way to his relationship with Ursula, not fighting her on naming the daughters ideological names while living in a country that cracks down and see's communist's killed all the time for it. We know at some point Germany's going to erupt in a civil war that see's Austria intervene and use their influence as a result to have a strong client state and I can't see Lutjen's family ending up well as a result.
Though I suppose that's the point in a way, just he represents a more everyone compared to the ideologues he in turn will pay the price for going with the flow like so many normal people will for Hitler's dreams.
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A great alternative. Respect and honor to the author. Although I can't yet understand why France and Britain (even if Britain is at war with Japan) to fight against Sozinat? I just don't see any reason for that. Sozinat is not going to attack France. Their interests lie on a completely different side. The interests also do not intersect with Britain. If Sozinat is at war with the USSR, why don't France and Britain just stand aside or even help them? The same with the war between Britain and Japan. I just don't see any reason for that. Japan is already overwhelmed with war with China, why should they just start a war with Britain. "Random" war (bea mistake or misunderstanding) seems stupid to me, I just can't remember wars between large countries in the 20/21st century because of this, when one of the parties itself does not want to start a war and is just looking for a formal reason. But I will follow the updates with interest.
This sentence is genuinely still 100% true if you replace 'Sozinat' with 'Nazi Germany'.
Germany was not going to attack France, their interests lie on a completely different side. Hitler had no ambitions in the West, he was mad-intent on destroying the 'evil Judeo-Bolsheviks' of the East. In fact, he was very honestly hoping France and Britain would help him against the Soviets, even to the last days of the war when he was deluded that the Allies' unity was about to collapse. His interests also did not intersect with Britain's as he re-affirmed multiple times. So indeed, why didn't France and Britain 'just stand aside or even help him'?
I don't think that needs an answer, and I believe I have made my point.
No, it really isn't. Nazi Germany kept on gobbling more land from different nations despite them telling the allies it would be the last. It's extremely telling after the Munich agreement that the Allies started to take a much harder line against Germany due to its constant betrayals. Sozinat Austria is going to be a different beast altogether.
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it.
Yeah that is kind of the scenario I was angling for. I do like the slowly escalating event. Makes me think our friendly neighborhood MI6 agent Garth Culpepper is smuggling weapons and other stuff into the Republic of China and it gets attacked by a Japanese submarine or dive bombers. And I like the Japanese feeling like they are being backed into a corner (in their imagination). Good points.
Thank you for the kind and insightful words! I never realized that but that’s pretty accurate. Both Lutjens and Hitler will go through a lot of shared events but from opposite sides.
And while Sozinat Austria won’t be the threat Nazi Germany was, France and Britain won’t take it kindly that countries in Southeast Europe are being swallowed by the rising tide of Fascism. I will say the Allies aren’t “serious” about the war until the USSR is invaded and the Axis expand in terms of members and occupied territory.
That will happen some here but not as much. Austria is more than happy with economic domination and protectorships rather than wasting half its military in occupation.
Thank you! Yes, I do also like the idea that it is in fact weapons being smuggled, and Japanese attempts to actually tell the truth about it end up being more escalatory as they are seen as lies and steps to escalate the situation. Could make a good section of a chapter too. Yep, the Japanese thinking they are backed into a corner is the only scenario in which they will willingly launch a war against a UK that is not embroiled in a major war already.
I am loving the TL, I have to say. Completely different campaigns and the such for WWII... how much in detail will you go regarding battles and operations in the Pacific compared to Europe? (As in, will this be very Euro-centric or more balanced?)
Yes, but that doesn't falsify my statement? I said THAT sentence would be true if applied to Nazi Germany. What you are talking about is not even mentioned in any way in the sentence. In fact, your reply is essentially proving my point- answering the question UrbanMen asked: "Why don't France and Britain stand aside, or even help Austria?". When I say "I don't think I need to answer that", I was referring to essentially what you are saying.
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Because Napoleon and Hitler wanted to take over Europe. But Sozinat is first much weaker than Germany (and Napoleonic France), secondly, there is Germany and France in Europe, because of which Sozinat can't even dream of capturing Europe, and thirdly, Sozinat's reputation and credit of trust are an order of magnitude higher than Hitler's Germany (and even after the war and loss of Sozinat' reputation will be an order of magnitude higher than that of the Nazis after the war, most likely like Turkey (due to the massacre of Armenians)). In my opinion, Britain and France could be more concerned that in case of their loss, the USSR will begin to capture countries in Europe, weeks Sozinat itself and its actions.
I think you could see a war occur against Austria, ironically because of it's weakness and slow but steady increase negativity associated with them like Japan.
By that people associate the Austrian empire as basically a German puppet by the end existing as it's weaker partner, if say Hitler was carving out Ukraine, Baltics ect the widespread assumption will be they at best will very close to Austria's closest partner and neighbor at worst just entered Germany's sphere for almost free with Austria bleeding for it.
France for example given how WW1 turned out feels it can't beat Germany on it's own and has a result needs allies to fight Germany, these include Romania, Yugoslavia, Poland Czechoslovakia ect given Hitler seeks to cripple and make vassals or destroy the later I can see why and how France could start intervening against Austria that escalates into a war.
Same time though, as depressing as it sounds I actually think if you saw something like the allies form it would be to try and have a ''status quo'' goal, Hitler's targets are very much ignorable, they don't want a complete Austrian victory as it would portend very badly long term. However if the USSR and Eastern Europe a whole was wrecked and it enables other powers like the USA or Britain to control them much better well that's far better than fighting all the way Vienna and they would never let the USSR win if Austria flopped.
By that people associate the Austrian empire as basically a German puppet by the end existing as it's weaker partner, if say Hitler was carving out Ukraine, Baltics ect the widespread assumption will be they at best will very close to Austria's closest partner and neighbor at worst just entered Germany's sphere for almost free with Austria bleeding for it.
France for example given how WW1 turned out feels it can't beat Germany on it's own and has a result needs allies to fight Germany, these include Romania, Yugoslavia, Poland Czechoslovakia ect given Hitler seeks to cripple and make vassals or destroy the later I can see why and how France could start intervening against Austria that escalates into a war.
Same time though, as depressing as it sounds I actually think if you saw something like the allies form it would be to try and have a ''status quo'' goal, Hitler's targets are very much ignorable, they don't want a complete Austrian victory as it would portend very badly long term. However if the USSR and Eastern Europe a whole was wrecked and it enables other powers like the USA or Britain to control them much better well that's far better than fighting all the way Vienna and they would never let the USSR win if Austria flopped.
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Apologies for the month-late response. Honestly thought I responded. So yes, as of now, the Anglo-Japanese War will begin in 1940 and will be due to escalating tensions between Japan and Britain that essentially gets out of control and leads to outright war. Maybe the British decide to send a small fleet to bolster their positions in the Pacific and the Japanese take it as a war fleet for a future conflict that Britain would start so they decide to attack it and war officially breaks out. We are years away from this so much can be changed/modified as we go along to make it more believable. While Europe will be the focus, as we get closer to WW2 we will have more characters and their perspectives, one being a Japanese soldier we’ve already met (Yuuki Nakano) and an American or two, as well as maybe an Australian Royal Marine and maybe another character somewhere in the mix. I will try and make it balanced but it’ll be like 2/3 - 3/4 Europe and 1/4 - 1/3 Pacific.
Hitler here doesn’t want to take over Europe. He knows that is infeasible with Austria’s population, resources, location and industry. What he wants to do is influence a large area and create a single trade market that revolves around Austria, as well as establish a military alliance against ‘Judeo-Bolshevism’ and Western democracies. Also resolving a few of the border issues they have would be key to Hitler. I’ve already hinted that Slovenia will be given to Austria and South Tyrol will have a strange dual-governance to appease both sides. Some of OTL Germany’s allies will be Sozinat Austria’s allies, but others will not while countries that were not OTL allies will be allies here.
Western (French) Appeasement towards Austria is to counter Germany but emboldens and empowers Sozinat Austria. I will say Austria will not be Germany’s puppet. The Allies will try and make sure a post-WW2 Europe will be shielded from the Soviets. I’ve also hinted that the post-war world will see Communism not as fr-reaching with strong democracies / anti-Communist governments in power in more of Europe Post-WW2 than OTL.
Update on the story: I am starting to work on the next chapter. I have already finished one section, am aiming for five or so as of now for chapter 37. I was focused on work, video games and a submission to Black Library hence the delay.
I also want to say thank you to those who have nominated this story for a Turtledove. That really means a lot to me. I am glad a story I have created entertains so many of you, and has created such thoughtful and informative discussions on this thread.
I am aiming to have the next chapter posted by next Sunday. Fingers crossed I can keep to that.
Absolutely no problem.
Yeah, of course I understand you cannot have a perfect 50-50 split between the Pacific and Europe as the war is just significantly more centred in Europe, so I will be quite happy with a 2/3 Europe and 1/3 Asia-Pacific "balance".
Enjoy your day!
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t ITTL Hitler not as much of an anti-Semite as his OTL counterpart and views the Serbs as OTL Hitler viewed the Jews?
Hitler is very much a rabid anti-Semite, he is just not anti-Slavic with the Serbs being a notable exception. Like when the USSR gets invaded a lot of Russians will be shot and sent to camps but not because of their ethnicity but rather their politics
On that note, any interesting ideas Hitler has regarding Romanians or Albanians with that in mind? I assume he hates Romanians, but I am not sure on his view on Albanians, not that it matters with how Albania is Italy's responsibility.