They are not even in Flanders. Closest Allies troops of Moscow currently are in Northern Sweden/Norway. Not greatest places to begin invasion to Russia. Them should even get good foothold on mainland Europe firstly and Germans have now more troops since they are not tied to Eastern Europe.
War makes for Strange Bedfellows – A Second World War timeline
- Thread starter BurkeanLibCon
- Start date
They are not even in Flanders. Closest Allies troops of Moscow currently are in Northern Sweden/Norway. Not greatest places to begin invasion to Russia. Them should even get good foothold on mainland Europe firstly and Germans have now more troops since they are not tied to Eastern Europe.
It's not just harder because going to Moscow is further than going to Berlin, it's going to be harder because the Soviets are going to have an enormous industry and almost none of the devastation of the OTL war, other than maybe a few bombing raids, which aren't likely to be all that effective because the Soviets are still likely to move most of their essential industry to Western Siberia. The rest will be covered in AA and probably with a cloud of interceptors. Unless they turn on the Germans, I can't really see a May 9 1945 ending to the European War, although Japan is now a fairly weak link and I could envision a Pacific First strategy, because fighting the 1st and 2nd largest armies 2nd and 3rd largest industrial powers (USSR and Germany respectively) for almost 3000 km is not only difficult, it's not a guaranteed success.
The fall of Japan would also open up an invasion of the Far East, but invading Russia starting in Vladivostok and ending in Berlin is probably even worse.
Invading Russia from Vladivostok would be indeed horrible idea. Already mother nature would be enough to screw all efforts of Allies. Only way would be capture France and Benelux and even then it would be long long way to Moscow.
The only positive for the Allies in capturing the City of Vladivostok and the surrounding flat area is that they now have a closer airport for bombers and airborne transports to take off from. The B-29 still can't reach major industrial centers (maybe the Novosibirsk aircraft plant? It would still probably be moved away towards the urals) and while the loss of the largest Far-East naval base hurts, even the most fanatic Stalin yes-man knows that the Soviet navy wouldn't put up an appreciable fight to the American navy anyway and bombing the American fleet is much easier since the Soviets will have many more and much better planes than they do ships.
Eh. Removal of Japan allows for arming up of China, which in this TL has to be squarely in Allies' camp. And those numbers are nothing to sniff at, particularly as Soviets themselves would have issues supporting large fighting force in the Far East - situation probably improved since 1939, but not by much.
Still, you need to remove Japan first, and such Far Eastern front wouldn't win you the war - it'd be more of a diversion.
Still, you need to remove Japan first, and such Far Eastern front wouldn't win you the war - it'd be more of a diversion.
The problem with arming China is that the USSR is also probably going in on China as well, and so the CCP may be ruling over much more of China than they did historically in the early 40's. The CCP were very popular with the rural peasants too, so it wouldn't be seen as liberation for most of China, especially inland and away from KMT strongholds. meaning even more partisans. I also disagree with the premise that "American Landing = Marching down Red Square" because I think the Soviets will have considerable industrial potential without the Great Patriotic War and their ability to equip their troops with the most modern equipment will be much greater than in real life.
Ok, so I’ve been quiet for a while and so, honesty being the best policy, I figured you deserved an update.
I’ve been doing better than I have in recent months but I’ve had to focus primarily on uni work over research for this. RL over AH and all that.
I’ve also passed a key threshold that’s held me back for the last 18 months. I don’t have a diagnosis, but I’m now fairly certain my symptoms match with OCD (of the Pure-O variety), and treating it in that manner is helping immensely. This isn’t a “Dr. Google” moment, my therapist also agrees.
This timeline is not dead, the next update is still in the pipeline but I still need to take care of myself first.
Thanks for your patience.
BurkeanLibCon
I’ve been doing better than I have in recent months but I’ve had to focus primarily on uni work over research for this. RL over AH and all that.
I’ve also passed a key threshold that’s held me back for the last 18 months. I don’t have a diagnosis, but I’m now fairly certain my symptoms match with OCD (of the Pure-O variety), and treating it in that manner is helping immensely. This isn’t a “Dr. Google” moment, my therapist also agrees.
This timeline is not dead, the next update is still in the pipeline but I still need to take care of myself first.
Thanks for your patience.
BurkeanLibCon
I'm glad you know what your dealing with and are improving.dont worry about the timeline. you deserve the best health you can get
Thanks. The time off has given me more time to plan the general outline of where this world could go. My plan is to continue it up until at least the present day and I now know how I intend to end it.
RL before TL's I always say, take your time, we'll be here when it's ready.
NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My Norway chapter, it's gone!!!!!!!!
Thankfully, I had 80% of it saved elsewhere, will be out soon.
Thankfully, I had 80% of it saved elsewhere, will be out soon.
what a roller coaster of emotions thus comment cost.
but that's great ! take care of yourself mate
Sorry for another delay guys, OCD relapse got in the way.
I promise the next update is going to be out by the end of the coming week – it’s nearly done.
BurkeanLibCon
I promise the next update is going to be out by the end of the coming week – it’s nearly done.
BurkeanLibCon
Chapter 29 – Hunting High and Low
It’s finally here! Sabaton is a great motivator.
Chapter 29 – Hunting High and Low
Scandinavian Campaign (Part 8)
March – September 1940
Norway's story in the Second World War did not end after the Allied invasion of March 1940, far from it. The Anglo-French-Polish landings consisted of just over 38,000 troops, making the odds of success nearly impossible until you realise that Norway had just 56,000 men of its own to mobilise in six divisions in the event of war. Furthermore, the Allied landings were made easier by the fact they were concentrated in two areas (Narvik and Trondheim) and that many Norwegian officers and men actually welcomed the Allies ashore, preferring them to the Germans [1]. Additionally, the Norwegian Army was still being mobilising, and in an ineffective way through post, which meant that the Norwegian force facing the Allies numbered no more than 40,000, of which only around 30,000 were engaged in the 3-hour war [2].
After the ceasefire the Norwegian Army was not demobilised. The six divisions continued to report to their muster points, with the addition of British, French and Polish troops supervising. By the 18th of March, all 56,000 soldiers had been mobilised. Combining the Allied forces with the Norwegian Army came out to just 94,000 men. This would not be anywhere near enough to resist a German invasion. If only there was something like a really, REALLY big bomb that could make things simpler...
After a quick bit of house clearing – Defence Minister Ljungberg and Commanding General Laake replaced on the 13th by Oscar Torp and Otto Ruge respectively (the latter as "Chief of Defence" [3]) – the Norwegian government, with Anglo-French assistance began a crash course restructuring of the Norwegian Armed Forces.
Oscar Torp, Minister of Defence of Norway (1940-present)
The Norwegian Army was structured differently from their British counterparts. Norwegian divisions were little more than administrative units with the regiment being the primary fighting unit – at nearly 4,000 men in each [4], they were closer in size to a British brigade.
But again, the Norwegian Army was far too small to repel a German invasion (potentially with Swedish intervention). Taking inspiration from the British Territorial Army's expansion in 1939 [5], the new defence minister set to work when he presented his plan to the Storting in late March 1940
the existing 4th and 5th divisions were to recruit an extra regiment each (numbered 17th and 18th respectively). before all 6 divisions would be triplicated. The 18 divisions would then be divided into two army corps with 7 divisions each with 4 divisions remaining in reserve. Minus headquarters and supporting logistical and artillery units, the reforms would create an infantry force of over 200,000 men on paper.
The plan was ambitious, Norway did not at present have the supplies to equip the troops at present. In addition, some critics pointed out that Norway's defences may still be insufficient since neighbouring Sweden could call upon an army of 600,000 men, let alone any German buildup which almost certainly happening [6]. The defence of Norway would require additional backup from Britain and France, which was virtually impossible beyond topping up forces deployed at the start of the invasion. In Whitehall, Chamberlain quietly cursed being convinced that attacking Sweden as well was a good idea.
New Norwegian recruits training, June 1940
Going into April and May of 1940, whilst many Norwegian soldiers-to-be were entering their training to be, it became clear that the army was still plagued by supply shortages which didn't look to be subsiding anytime soon. The supply problems were worsened in June 1940 with the Westman Affair and then the fall of France (leading to an unfortunate skirmish between British sailors and Norwegian coast guards skirmishing with French sailors on the cruiser Montcalm, killing two [7]). Towards the end of June 1940, many Norwegian soldiers were being trained on rifles they brought from home or from rifle clubs. Better than nothing I guess, but still not top-notch fighting force kinda stuff. Arms (including ammunition and artillery) were arriving from Britain – and to a lesser extent Canada – improving the situation somewhat but still not quite enough, with Britain being prioritised for equipment after the debacle of Dunkirk. Still, Norwegian soldiers made up for present material shortages with good discipline and morale. More guns, ack-ack guns, artillery pieces and even tanks and planes (albeit in smaller quantities) would arrive. If there was to be an invasion, the invaders would receive a bloody nose.
To the east, that invader was massing its forces.
Footnotes
- [1] See Chapters 5 & 6 for more.
- [2] Mobilisation by post can be so ineffective.
- [3] Ruge replaced Laake in 1940 in OTL, whilst Ljungberg remained in office until 1942.
- [4] 3,750 to be precise.
- [5] Pre-war plans from March 1939 to increase the TA field strength from 130,000 to 340,000 with a further 100,000 in the anti-aircraft section (see sources)
- [6] Despite technically being an ally of Germany ITTL, Sweden under Prime Minister Hansson is proving a rather annoying ally. The Westman Affair may have confirmed Stockholm's status as Germany's subordinate, but he is still able to grind Goring's gears by refusing Swedish troops for a general Norway invasion.
- [7] In OTL, the Montcalm served as the lead French ship in Scandinavia and participated in the Namsos evacuations. After French defeat, she was stationed in Algiers. After Operation Catapult, she was moved to Toulon. She then sailed to Dakar in September along with two sister ships, leading to the sacking of British commander Sir Dudley North. ITTL, she remains in Scandinavia. The skirmish was based on reported standoffs in Portsmouth and Alexandria after the Fall of France in OTL.
Sources
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_campaign_order_of_battle#Norwegian_Army
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristian_Laake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Torp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_...war_re-establishment_and_mobilisation_in_1939
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Norway
Announcements
Slightly shorter than I wanted. Apologies if it's not up to the standards you may have thought, waiting several months. I will follow it up with another Norway chapter soon but I needed to finish this bit before it got deleted again. I promise it won't take as long this time!!
Also, one of the sources I used was a video called "Churchill was an idiot". I'm sure there is some diversity of thought on that topic, but that's not what this thread is for. I didn't put the video up as a source to show my thoughts on that question but merely to show where I got the numbers for the Norwegian forces.
Comments?
Chapter 29 – Hunting High and Low
Scandinavian Campaign (Part 8)
March – September 1940
Norway's story in the Second World War did not end after the Allied invasion of March 1940, far from it. The Anglo-French-Polish landings consisted of just over 38,000 troops, making the odds of success nearly impossible until you realise that Norway had just 56,000 men of its own to mobilise in six divisions in the event of war. Furthermore, the Allied landings were made easier by the fact they were concentrated in two areas (Narvik and Trondheim) and that many Norwegian officers and men actually welcomed the Allies ashore, preferring them to the Germans [1]. Additionally, the Norwegian Army was still being mobilising, and in an ineffective way through post, which meant that the Norwegian force facing the Allies numbered no more than 40,000, of which only around 30,000 were engaged in the 3-hour war [2].
After the ceasefire the Norwegian Army was not demobilised. The six divisions continued to report to their muster points, with the addition of British, French and Polish troops supervising. By the 18th of March, all 56,000 soldiers had been mobilised. Combining the Allied forces with the Norwegian Army came out to just 94,000 men. This would not be anywhere near enough to resist a German invasion. If only there was something like a really, REALLY big bomb that could make things simpler...
After a quick bit of house clearing – Defence Minister Ljungberg and Commanding General Laake replaced on the 13th by Oscar Torp and Otto Ruge respectively (the latter as "Chief of Defence" [3]) – the Norwegian government, with Anglo-French assistance began a crash course restructuring of the Norwegian Armed Forces.
Oscar Torp, Minister of Defence of Norway (1940-present)
The Norwegian Army was structured differently from their British counterparts. Norwegian divisions were little more than administrative units with the regiment being the primary fighting unit – at nearly 4,000 men in each [4], they were closer in size to a British brigade.
But again, the Norwegian Army was far too small to repel a German invasion (potentially with Swedish intervention). Taking inspiration from the British Territorial Army's expansion in 1939 [5], the new defence minister set to work when he presented his plan to the Storting in late March 1940
the existing 4th and 5th divisions were to recruit an extra regiment each (numbered 17th and 18th respectively). before all 6 divisions would be triplicated. The 18 divisions would then be divided into two army corps with 7 divisions each with 4 divisions remaining in reserve. Minus headquarters and supporting logistical and artillery units, the reforms would create an infantry force of over 200,000 men on paper.
The plan was ambitious, Norway did not at present have the supplies to equip the troops at present. In addition, some critics pointed out that Norway's defences may still be insufficient since neighbouring Sweden could call upon an army of 600,000 men, let alone any German buildup which almost certainly happening [6]. The defence of Norway would require additional backup from Britain and France, which was virtually impossible beyond topping up forces deployed at the start of the invasion. In Whitehall, Chamberlain quietly cursed being convinced that attacking Sweden as well was a good idea.
New Norwegian recruits training, June 1940
Going into April and May of 1940, whilst many Norwegian soldiers-to-be were entering their training to be, it became clear that the army was still plagued by supply shortages which didn't look to be subsiding anytime soon. The supply problems were worsened in June 1940 with the Westman Affair and then the fall of France (leading to an unfortunate skirmish between British sailors and Norwegian coast guards skirmishing with French sailors on the cruiser Montcalm, killing two [7]). Towards the end of June 1940, many Norwegian soldiers were being trained on rifles they brought from home or from rifle clubs. Better than nothing I guess, but still not top-notch fighting force kinda stuff. Arms (including ammunition and artillery) were arriving from Britain – and to a lesser extent Canada – improving the situation somewhat but still not quite enough, with Britain being prioritised for equipment after the debacle of Dunkirk. Still, Norwegian soldiers made up for present material shortages with good discipline and morale. More guns, ack-ack guns, artillery pieces and even tanks and planes (albeit in smaller quantities) would arrive. If there was to be an invasion, the invaders would receive a bloody nose.
To the east, that invader was massing its forces.
Footnotes
- [1] See Chapters 5 & 6 for more.
- [2] Mobilisation by post can be so ineffective.
- [3] Ruge replaced Laake in 1940 in OTL, whilst Ljungberg remained in office until 1942.
- [4] 3,750 to be precise.
- [5] Pre-war plans from March 1939 to increase the TA field strength from 130,000 to 340,000 with a further 100,000 in the anti-aircraft section (see sources)
- [6] Despite technically being an ally of Germany ITTL, Sweden under Prime Minister Hansson is proving a rather annoying ally. The Westman Affair may have confirmed Stockholm's status as Germany's subordinate, but he is still able to grind Goring's gears by refusing Swedish troops for a general Norway invasion.
- [7] In OTL, the Montcalm served as the lead French ship in Scandinavia and participated in the Namsos evacuations. After French defeat, she was stationed in Algiers. After Operation Catapult, she was moved to Toulon. She then sailed to Dakar in September along with two sister ships, leading to the sacking of British commander Sir Dudley North. ITTL, she remains in Scandinavia. The skirmish was based on reported standoffs in Portsmouth and Alexandria after the Fall of France in OTL.
Sources
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristian_Laake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Torp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_...war_re-establishment_and_mobilisation_in_1939
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Norway
Announcements
Slightly shorter than I wanted. Apologies if it's not up to the standards you may have thought, waiting several months. I will follow it up with another Norway chapter soon but I needed to finish this bit before it got deleted again. I promise it won't take as long this time!!
Also, one of the sources I used was a video called "Churchill was an idiot". I'm sure there is some diversity of thought on that topic, but that's not what this thread is for. I didn't put the video up as a source to show my thoughts on that question but merely to show where I got the numbers for the Norwegian forces.
Comments?
