“It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition.” Admiral Cunningham.
Optimize the Axis Navies for WW2
So, for me anyway, it seems that the USA had already decided, even before entering the war, that they were not happy with the UK throwing their weight around, and telling us who we could and couldn't trade with, as well as how much we could trade, with those we were 'allowed to' trade with, and this is what resulted in the building program that kicked off in 1916.
Before last month, I had never realized this had actually happened.
Also, while I knew that the Japanese had not really gotten all their wishes fulfilled, I never really put it all together with other things that happened in this time frame. Can anyone else give some input on what any of the three main navies were thinking, of their relations with each other?
The 'decisive battle' doctrine seems to be a plan for the USA to offer up a war in which, the US Pacific fleet was supposed to fight the IJN, and following their defeat, the USN was supposed to send the US Atlantic fleet into a second battle (exactly like what the Russians had done in the Russo-Japanese war in 1904-1905), but no thought seems to have been taken towards, what if, the USN combined the Atlantic and Pacific fleets, before coming out to play? I wonder what the response to the ending of the Anglo-Japanese alliance had on Japanese thinking, and how even that would have changed if the "Singapore Strategy" came to be known by the IJN.
Instead of the hypothetical 7 vs, 5 first round, followed by the survivors vs. the remaining 5, the IJN would be potentially facing a fight of 3 v. 5+5. When might this realization dawn on the Japanese leadership in TTL, and what might they conclude?
Before last month, I had never realized this had actually happened.
Also, while I knew that the Japanese had not really gotten all their wishes fulfilled, I never really put it all together with other things that happened in this time frame. Can anyone else give some input on what any of the three main navies were thinking, of their relations with each other?
The 'decisive battle' doctrine seems to be a plan for the USA to offer up a war in which, the US Pacific fleet was supposed to fight the IJN, and following their defeat, the USN was supposed to send the US Atlantic fleet into a second battle (exactly like what the Russians had done in the Russo-Japanese war in 1904-1905), but no thought seems to have been taken towards, what if, the USN combined the Atlantic and Pacific fleets, before coming out to play? I wonder what the response to the ending of the Anglo-Japanese alliance had on Japanese thinking, and how even that would have changed if the "Singapore Strategy" came to be known by the IJN.
Instead of the hypothetical 7 vs, 5 first round, followed by the survivors vs. the remaining 5, the IJN would be potentially facing a fight of 3 v. 5+5. When might this realization dawn on the Japanese leadership in TTL, and what might they conclude?
I'm not sure where my copy is right now, but let me recommend Vincent P O'Hara's book on the navies of World War 2
He and his co-authors go through the navies, their technology, weapons, tactics, etc. Very informative.
Regards,
Have them make more submarines and successfully take over as much of the French fleet as possible in 1940.
thaddeus
Donor
one would think Germany would run (or sail) as fast as possible away from a Jutland 2.0 battleship fleet?
build a second set of Scharnhorst-class BBs with some of the known problems eliminated, and five CAs off a modified panzerschiffe design. a carrier off a converted ocean liner for training.
they could build a large number of diesel powered TBs off the Bremse design with rudimentary radar as somewhat of flotilla leaders for enlarged S-boats (that could serve more effectively in the minelaying role)
my speculation would be a huge fleet of commercial ships, including tankers, that could cannibalize some of the market share, leading to the Allied side having less available ships, especially tankers at the onset of war.
they could also build warships for the USSR in exchange for oil and other materials.
build a second set of Scharnhorst-class BBs with some of the known problems eliminated, and five CAs off a modified panzerschiffe design. a carrier off a converted ocean liner for training.
they could build a large number of diesel powered TBs off the Bremse design with rudimentary radar as somewhat of flotilla leaders for enlarged S-boats (that could serve more effectively in the minelaying role)
my speculation would be a huge fleet of commercial ships, including tankers, that could cannibalize some of the market share, leading to the Allied side having less available ships, especially tankers at the onset of war.
they could also build warships for the USSR in exchange for oil and other materials.
Last edited:
Ok, so what I have so far is that the USA is done in 1916 with the UK dictating who we can trade with and who we cannot, what we can trade to them, and what we cannot, as well as how much. That was the historical basis for the fleet expansion program of 1916, which led to all the big plans from all three of the big nations/navies.
The UK perspective seems to have been, sign a treaty that gives the RN total European naval supremacy at least until France and Italy recover economically from WWI and start to build their own new BB. Is this essentially correct, or am I missing something?
Japan seems focused on fighting and beating the USA, but when will they realize the change from when they were allied to the UK, and now are not, and likely would have to fight both the UK and US, unless something can be done to drive a wedge between the two?
I'll leave this alone for a few hours, then, If no one objects, I'll make the next thread marked post, so we can go on to the next time period, from 1923 to 1926.
The UK perspective seems to have been, sign a treaty that gives the RN total European naval supremacy at least until France and Italy recover economically from WWI and start to build their own new BB. Is this essentially correct, or am I missing something?
Japan seems focused on fighting and beating the USA, but when will they realize the change from when they were allied to the UK, and now are not, and likely would have to fight both the UK and US, unless something can be done to drive a wedge between the two?
I'll leave this alone for a few hours, then, If no one objects, I'll make the next thread marked post, so we can go on to the next time period, from 1923 to 1926.
This would be of indirect benefit to the Kriegsmarine and has also been posted in the Optimise the Heer thread.
What if the Silesian plebiscites showed a clear majority in favour of remaining part of Germany and it wasn't partitioned? Upper Silesia produced 75% of Germany's zinc ore as well as 23% of its coal and also had lead deposits of considerable size. Most of this went to Poland. According to Poland's 1931 Census its portion of Silesia had a population of 1,298,352 which if they had been German citizens 1933-39 instead of Polish citizens would have provided the Reich Ministry of Finance with some extra taxpayers to ease the financial burden of German rearmament. Admittedly, it would only increase Germany's population (66,029,086 according to the 1933 Census) by 1.87%, but every little helps.
What if the Silesian plebiscites showed a clear majority in favour of remaining part of Germany and it wasn't partitioned? Upper Silesia produced 75% of Germany's zinc ore as well as 23% of its coal and also had lead deposits of considerable size. Most of this went to Poland. According to Poland's 1931 Census its portion of Silesia had a population of 1,298,352 which if they had been German citizens 1933-39 instead of Polish citizens would have provided the Reich Ministry of Finance with some extra taxpayers to ease the financial burden of German rearmament. Admittedly, it would only increase Germany's population (66,029,086 according to the 1933 Census) by 1.87%, but every little helps.
This would be of benefit to the Kriegsmarine and has also been posted in the Optimise the Heer thread.
According to its Wikipedia entry the Rhine–Main–Danube Canal was completed in 1992 but plans for it go as far back as 1917. Could the Nazis use some of the umpteen million unemployed they inherited on 30.01.33 to have it completed by 1939? It would appeal to them as a vanity project.
Its locks can accommodate vessels of up to 623 x 38ft (190.00 x 11.54m) which is enough to take all Kriegsmarine surface ships up to and including the small destroyers of the T-boat type and all of its submarines. That would help the Heer indirectly because it would be easier for the Kriegsmarine to send warships to assist the Romanian Navy in the Black Sea. Which might shorten the sieges of Odessa & Sevastopol and in 1942 enable the German armies fighting in the Caucasus to be supplied by sea, which wasn't possible IOTL due to the Soviet Black Sea Fleet.
@Naval Aviation Fan I know you're not up to 1933, but I wanted to post it before I forgot and there's nothing to stop the Weimar Republic making the plans which the Nazis will implement and at the same time take the credit. AFIAK that's exactly what happened with the autobahns.
According to its Wikipedia entry the Rhine–Main–Danube Canal was completed in 1992 but plans for it go as far back as 1917. Could the Nazis use some of the umpteen million unemployed they inherited on 30.01.33 to have it completed by 1939? It would appeal to them as a vanity project.
Its locks can accommodate vessels of up to 623 x 38ft (190.00 x 11.54m) which is enough to take all Kriegsmarine surface ships up to and including the small destroyers of the T-boat type and all of its submarines. That would help the Heer indirectly because it would be easier for the Kriegsmarine to send warships to assist the Romanian Navy in the Black Sea. Which might shorten the sieges of Odessa & Sevastopol and in 1942 enable the German armies fighting in the Caucasus to be supplied by sea, which wasn't possible IOTL due to the Soviet Black Sea Fleet.
@Naval Aviation Fan I know you're not up to 1933, but I wanted to post it before I forgot and there's nothing to stop the Weimar Republic making the plans which the Nazis will implement and at the same time take the credit. AFIAK that's exactly what happened with the autobahns.
- Does Italy really need carriers for Mediterranean operations? If I'm not mistaken they were building two of them at the beginning of the war, which was a waste of resources. Deciding to not build these frees up a good bit of resources.
- Improving Italian night fighting capabilities without radar, like the Japanese, would definitely helpful for the Italians.
- The Italians did really good with small attack crafts and their frogmen we're second to none, so I'd say double down on that.
- Increase the amount of marine brigades and utilize them in operations in Malta, Crete, N. Africa, etc.
- More submarines.
- Improving Italian night fighting capabilities without radar, like the Japanese, would definitely helpful for the Italians.
- The Italians did really good with small attack crafts and their frogmen we're second to none, so I'd say double down on that.
- Increase the amount of marine brigades and utilize them in operations in Malta, Crete, N. Africa, etc.
- More submarines.
1923 - 1926, the first changes.
Ok, health been a non-cooperative life partner lately, but here we go...
So, by the end of 1922, the Japanese need to start seeing the WNT in the light of "we cannot expand, because the US/UK are both against us", and so start looking at ways to alleviate/alter this new balance. Japan fought alongside Entente during the war, but then are not allowed to keep their gains. Particularly telling is the forced hand over of the former German concession of Tsingtao on 10 Dec, 1922, as well as being forced to evacuate it's gains in the Siberian intervention, and thus being prevented from the creation of a puppet state in the Soviet far east.
My point being, Japan should, at least by the end of 1922, be starting to look for ways to give the USA and UK other navies to worry about. The first thing I would have them look into is the ToV (which cost them Tsingtao) and how to undermine it, in a kind of "what's good for the goose, is good for the gander" type of thing. Going along with that, is helping German circumvent all ToV restrictions (and all other treaties like the IACC and such), by way of encouraging/inviting/allowing the Germans, post 1922, to invest in schools/factories/slipways for building experimental/prototypes of things Germany cannot do in Germany itself.
Some things that would help the future KM,
Naval Guns pits, built with German funds (or possibly part German part Japanese, as they are going to be built in Japan after all), so sometime in 1923 - 1926, Germany can start building naval guns of whatever size they like, but in Japan, and so the ToV/IACC have nothing to say, should they even discover what should be a very tightly kept secret. I see no reason for the Japanese to restrict private German companies from developing 15" & 16" guns in the 1923 - 1926 period on Japanese soil.
Aircraft factories that simply allow experimentation, design and development, testing of prototypes. After all, the Germans did work with the Swiss on seaplanes, and the USSR on military aircraft/airforce.
Slipway(s)
So the Germans can work uninterrupted on evolution of undersea warships, without a decade or two slipping by without design and construction messing things up for them, and this is legal, as the restrictive treaties only prevent the German government from having these things, not private companies doing these things outside of Germany, right? One thing I have a particular interest in, is if the Germans are asked to keep some of these submarines entirely without armament, so if rumors leak out, the commerce/transport subs could eventually be trotted out.
Additionally, for Marine engines, can the Germans develop powerful engines, suitable for say a long range, commerce raider, and just stick them into merchantmen, so as to be able to test out the designs and work out the bugs? This could mean building a handful of German merchant ships, in Japan, with engines that have no place on a merchant ship, but give at least some of the needed things for engine testing and bug fixing, as well as maintenance over time, and long range/duration voyages.
In addition to the above, we should also think about an inter-axis military and industrial cooperation setup during this time frame, so that we can have some ideas of what the future threadmarks unlock.
So, for the next week or three, let us discuss how to optimize all three axis navies, in the time frame of 1923-1926, with a mind's eye to the following 4 year blocks. I see this initial time frame as critical, as getting the (future) Axis navies into fighting trim is going to take time, and we need to get the idea firmly set, as soon after ToV as possible.
What are folks thoughts on things, in the 1923 - 1926 time frame, that they would like to see investigated/discussed here?
So, by the end of 1922, the Japanese need to start seeing the WNT in the light of "we cannot expand, because the US/UK are both against us", and so start looking at ways to alleviate/alter this new balance. Japan fought alongside Entente during the war, but then are not allowed to keep their gains. Particularly telling is the forced hand over of the former German concession of Tsingtao on 10 Dec, 1922, as well as being forced to evacuate it's gains in the Siberian intervention, and thus being prevented from the creation of a puppet state in the Soviet far east.
My point being, Japan should, at least by the end of 1922, be starting to look for ways to give the USA and UK other navies to worry about. The first thing I would have them look into is the ToV (which cost them Tsingtao) and how to undermine it, in a kind of "what's good for the goose, is good for the gander" type of thing. Going along with that, is helping German circumvent all ToV restrictions (and all other treaties like the IACC and such), by way of encouraging/inviting/allowing the Germans, post 1922, to invest in schools/factories/slipways for building experimental/prototypes of things Germany cannot do in Germany itself.
Some things that would help the future KM,
Naval Guns pits, built with German funds (or possibly part German part Japanese, as they are going to be built in Japan after all), so sometime in 1923 - 1926, Germany can start building naval guns of whatever size they like, but in Japan, and so the ToV/IACC have nothing to say, should they even discover what should be a very tightly kept secret. I see no reason for the Japanese to restrict private German companies from developing 15" & 16" guns in the 1923 - 1926 period on Japanese soil.
Aircraft factories that simply allow experimentation, design and development, testing of prototypes. After all, the Germans did work with the Swiss on seaplanes, and the USSR on military aircraft/airforce.
Slipway(s)
So the Germans can work uninterrupted on evolution of undersea warships, without a decade or two slipping by without design and construction messing things up for them, and this is legal, as the restrictive treaties only prevent the German government from having these things, not private companies doing these things outside of Germany, right? One thing I have a particular interest in, is if the Germans are asked to keep some of these submarines entirely without armament, so if rumors leak out, the commerce/transport subs could eventually be trotted out.
Additionally, for Marine engines, can the Germans develop powerful engines, suitable for say a long range, commerce raider, and just stick them into merchantmen, so as to be able to test out the designs and work out the bugs? This could mean building a handful of German merchant ships, in Japan, with engines that have no place on a merchant ship, but give at least some of the needed things for engine testing and bug fixing, as well as maintenance over time, and long range/duration voyages.
In addition to the above, we should also think about an inter-axis military and industrial cooperation setup during this time frame, so that we can have some ideas of what the future threadmarks unlock.
So, for the next week or three, let us discuss how to optimize all three axis navies, in the time frame of 1923-1926, with a mind's eye to the following 4 year blocks. I see this initial time frame as critical, as getting the (future) Axis navies into fighting trim is going to take time, and we need to get the idea firmly set, as soon after ToV as possible.
What are folks thoughts on things, in the 1923 - 1926 time frame, that they would like to see investigated/discussed here?
thaddeus
Donor
there is a good book Reluctant Allies dealing with the relative lack of cooperation between Germany-Japan, for the 1920's it seems the only possible cooperation would be between Italy and Japan?
(Germany was a pariah state during the period, with almost no navy, whereas Italy was firmly anti-Communist and at least a putative member of the Stresa Front, a more appealing partner for Japan?)
For Germany I would accept the predreadnoughts without to much complaint, they arent going to effect my plans all that much. Now when it comes to the rest of the fleet is where there will be some changes.
1920-25
Build some small torpedo boats as was done historically to get rid of the prewar types left floating around, these ships should be centered around coastal defense work and be optimized for short range work in the baltic and north sea. I dont want to start building an oceagoing fleet if I dont have to as it will probably waste resources and scare the Entente more than it should.
When it comes to my light cruisers, which I would be able to begin building almost right off the bat I would opt to build a ship with twin turrets if at all possible. I know that the Entente blocked German efforts to do so early on, but if I delay the laying down of the ship for a year or so while I continue to demand that I be allowed twin turrets they should eventually cave in. My ship would probably be little better than a Arethusa class a few years early with less range, but will be better than nothing. Say 3x2 152mm guns, 32 knot speed and short range.
I would spend anything left of my budget expanding my minelaying capabilities to better defend the coasts of Germany, as well as try and establish shadow companies in neighboring countries like the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, and the USSR if possible to allow me to continue to keep up to date in submarine design, and also play with aircraft. The latter is so that when the Austrian takes over I can better demand that my fleet be allowed to keep its own aviation arm.
1926-1930
Well now I will be able to build some larger ships to replace my predreadnoughts, I would pass a program in say 1927 calling for three new large ships and two new light cruisers to replace three predreads and two scout cruisers, basing the light cruisers off the improved Emden. My large ships, Panzerschiff, would be similar in concept to the OTL Deutschland's, but I would go for oil fuel to allow for higher speeds, even if I sacrifice some range.
The main departure is that these three ships would be built to a standard design which would not change all that much across the ships. I would begin researching a light gun for dual purpose use if possible as it would benefit my future construction. The Panzerschiff would be well over the treaty terms, Germany got away with it OTL so why not exploit it here but to better effect. Say 12-13k which would allow the ships to get a proper armor belt, say 100-150mm and decent deck armor.
I would also lay down another batch of torpedo boats, these ships would probably be in the thousand ton range and not really capable per se, but good enough for use as a coastal defense force. Try and get some designs built by my foreign proxies for standard submarines which can be built quickly. Also work with civilian industry to build some ships which in peacetime can be capable freighters and transports, but in wartime can become supply ships for surface raiders and/or surface raiders themselves.
1931-1935
This would be probably the most difficult period to pull off. I would start by planning a further trio of panzerschiff, but not lay them down for a bit. These ships would feature a dual purpose gun, and an improved tripple 280mm turret. I would delay the construction of these ships for a bit, ordering them but then making alterations to the design before they could make much progress. This would be so that once the treaty restrictions are ripped apart by the Austrian I could switch to building some proper battleships Scharnhorst style using the guns and turrets I had from my never built pocket battleships.
I would build a further trio of light cruisers in the period, building bigger ships with more powerful triple turrets, and better seakeeping thanks to just straight up lying about their displacement. Say 9,000 ton ships in total. When the treaty terms are thrown aside I would order a further trio of these ships in place of my pocket battleships. I would have a full sized destroyer, in the 1,600 ton or 1,800 ton range but hold off on laying them down until the treaty is ripped apart, at which point as many as possible would be laid down to quickly get large numbers into service. These destroyers can be a bit smaller than average as I just need numbers, no sense building mini light cruisers like the Germans did historically, and I would also use the dual purpose guns which I had developed earlier.
And as soon as the treaty is torn apart I would begin building a group of small submarines, nothing huge, clearly defensive in nature. These boats would help the navy to get experience in operating submarines while larger ships are built in the coming years, though the initial focus of submarine construction would be to build up a corps of a sub force with designs which could be built in large numbers when war begins. But the main focus is not going to be on subs as I want a capable surface force if possible.
1936-1940
This will be the final peace time building period, so I want to spend it as well as possible. I would lay down a trio of battleships similar to the OTL Bismarck class, though smaller if possible as they were rather bloated. On that note I would want to have more modern armor schemes for my battleships overall. I would also lay down an aircraft carrier, only if I have control of my own air arm though. If not then I would lay down another heavy cruiser, speaking of which I would lay down eight or nine of them in the period. These ships would be armed with 4x2 8in guns with an effective belt of 150-100mm if possible.
I would lay down a further group of destroyers in the period as well, based on the ships of the prior period. Submarines would take a major boost in priority this year as well as I would begin building a standard design of mid range sub suitable for use in the Atlantic. Also begin working on some large flying boats, even if I dont have my own aviation force long ranged flying boats will be useful for the battle of the Atlantic.
This would give me a force of about the following if everything goes right. All my ships would be meant to enter service in 1940-41.
x2 15in batleships (x1 building)
x1 aircraft carrier entering service
x3 pocket battleships
x4 heavy cruisers (x4 building)
x9 light cruisers
x24 destroyers (x24 building)
x36 torpedo boats
x48-96 submarines
loads of minelayers and merchant raiders.
Once war began my construction would focus on completing the large units building, getting my cruisers, battleships, and carriers into service. I would then begin building a simplified destroyer design, some small torpedo boats, and loads of submarines. My surface fleet would only engage in operations into the Atlantic in force with several capital ships escorted by lesser cruisers and destroyers. The exception to this would be the panzerschiff which are meant for independent surface raiding. This would ensure that the RN spends more resources matching me, and should cut back our losses significantly. I would take part in the Norwegian campaign, but would place all my ships on high alert to hopefully avoid the worst of the losses suffered during the OTL campaign.
Will this be enough to win me the war? No, Germany is still screwed. But it should make things more interesting on the high seas, and present a tougher nut for the allies to crack.
1920-25
Build some small torpedo boats as was done historically to get rid of the prewar types left floating around, these ships should be centered around coastal defense work and be optimized for short range work in the baltic and north sea. I dont want to start building an oceagoing fleet if I dont have to as it will probably waste resources and scare the Entente more than it should.
When it comes to my light cruisers, which I would be able to begin building almost right off the bat I would opt to build a ship with twin turrets if at all possible. I know that the Entente blocked German efforts to do so early on, but if I delay the laying down of the ship for a year or so while I continue to demand that I be allowed twin turrets they should eventually cave in. My ship would probably be little better than a Arethusa class a few years early with less range, but will be better than nothing. Say 3x2 152mm guns, 32 knot speed and short range.
I would spend anything left of my budget expanding my minelaying capabilities to better defend the coasts of Germany, as well as try and establish shadow companies in neighboring countries like the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, and the USSR if possible to allow me to continue to keep up to date in submarine design, and also play with aircraft. The latter is so that when the Austrian takes over I can better demand that my fleet be allowed to keep its own aviation arm.
1926-1930
Well now I will be able to build some larger ships to replace my predreadnoughts, I would pass a program in say 1927 calling for three new large ships and two new light cruisers to replace three predreads and two scout cruisers, basing the light cruisers off the improved Emden. My large ships, Panzerschiff, would be similar in concept to the OTL Deutschland's, but I would go for oil fuel to allow for higher speeds, even if I sacrifice some range.
The main departure is that these three ships would be built to a standard design which would not change all that much across the ships. I would begin researching a light gun for dual purpose use if possible as it would benefit my future construction. The Panzerschiff would be well over the treaty terms, Germany got away with it OTL so why not exploit it here but to better effect. Say 12-13k which would allow the ships to get a proper armor belt, say 100-150mm and decent deck armor.
I would also lay down another batch of torpedo boats, these ships would probably be in the thousand ton range and not really capable per se, but good enough for use as a coastal defense force. Try and get some designs built by my foreign proxies for standard submarines which can be built quickly. Also work with civilian industry to build some ships which in peacetime can be capable freighters and transports, but in wartime can become supply ships for surface raiders and/or surface raiders themselves.
1931-1935
This would be probably the most difficult period to pull off. I would start by planning a further trio of panzerschiff, but not lay them down for a bit. These ships would feature a dual purpose gun, and an improved tripple 280mm turret. I would delay the construction of these ships for a bit, ordering them but then making alterations to the design before they could make much progress. This would be so that once the treaty restrictions are ripped apart by the Austrian I could switch to building some proper battleships Scharnhorst style using the guns and turrets I had from my never built pocket battleships.
I would build a further trio of light cruisers in the period, building bigger ships with more powerful triple turrets, and better seakeeping thanks to just straight up lying about their displacement. Say 9,000 ton ships in total. When the treaty terms are thrown aside I would order a further trio of these ships in place of my pocket battleships. I would have a full sized destroyer, in the 1,600 ton or 1,800 ton range but hold off on laying them down until the treaty is ripped apart, at which point as many as possible would be laid down to quickly get large numbers into service. These destroyers can be a bit smaller than average as I just need numbers, no sense building mini light cruisers like the Germans did historically, and I would also use the dual purpose guns which I had developed earlier.
And as soon as the treaty is torn apart I would begin building a group of small submarines, nothing huge, clearly defensive in nature. These boats would help the navy to get experience in operating submarines while larger ships are built in the coming years, though the initial focus of submarine construction would be to build up a corps of a sub force with designs which could be built in large numbers when war begins. But the main focus is not going to be on subs as I want a capable surface force if possible.
1936-1940
This will be the final peace time building period, so I want to spend it as well as possible. I would lay down a trio of battleships similar to the OTL Bismarck class, though smaller if possible as they were rather bloated. On that note I would want to have more modern armor schemes for my battleships overall. I would also lay down an aircraft carrier, only if I have control of my own air arm though. If not then I would lay down another heavy cruiser, speaking of which I would lay down eight or nine of them in the period. These ships would be armed with 4x2 8in guns with an effective belt of 150-100mm if possible.
I would lay down a further group of destroyers in the period as well, based on the ships of the prior period. Submarines would take a major boost in priority this year as well as I would begin building a standard design of mid range sub suitable for use in the Atlantic. Also begin working on some large flying boats, even if I dont have my own aviation force long ranged flying boats will be useful for the battle of the Atlantic.
This would give me a force of about the following if everything goes right. All my ships would be meant to enter service in 1940-41.
x2 15in batleships (x1 building)
x1 aircraft carrier entering service
x3 pocket battleships
x4 heavy cruisers (x4 building)
x9 light cruisers
x24 destroyers (x24 building)
x36 torpedo boats
x48-96 submarines
loads of minelayers and merchant raiders.
Once war began my construction would focus on completing the large units building, getting my cruisers, battleships, and carriers into service. I would then begin building a simplified destroyer design, some small torpedo boats, and loads of submarines. My surface fleet would only engage in operations into the Atlantic in force with several capital ships escorted by lesser cruisers and destroyers. The exception to this would be the panzerschiff which are meant for independent surface raiding. This would ensure that the RN spends more resources matching me, and should cut back our losses significantly. I would take part in the Norwegian campaign, but would place all my ships on high alert to hopefully avoid the worst of the losses suffered during the OTL campaign.
Will this be enough to win me the war? No, Germany is still screwed. But it should make things more interesting on the high seas, and present a tougher nut for the allies to crack.
I'll put that on my list of things to do. I remember reading that the Japanese thought highly of the Germans for their conduct of the land defense at Tsingtao, so I don't think that it is impossible for the Germans and Japanese to work together.
Perhaps, but the Germans have a known capacity to build a Navy, have fought the UK/RN in the recent past, and might just be worth the effort of 'helping' to once again become a threat/distraction for the British/RN, as some point in the future. What ways could the Japanese help out the Italians? Germany is going to be desperate for the things the Japanese can off them, because of the ToV restrictions, which Italy isn't suffering under, so I doubt that the Italians will be so interested in investing in infrastructure in Japan, when they could just build their own in their own country. Could the Japanese secure Italian cooperation by opening up a naval gun production line in Italy, perhaps as a joint venture? The IJN already has 16" guns in service in 1923, so some limited gun building facilities built in Italy can function to get the Italians bigger guns, earlier.
What things could the Germans and Italians benefit from by working closely with the Japanese? Bigger naval guns, earlier than historically, so perhaps 15" guns are available for Scharnhorst class? If Germany can build and test engines for CA, BC, and BB sized ships, and put them in merchantmen looking hulls, and test them to destruction through constant use, for a decade before laying down the twins in this ALT, would they have worked out many of the problems their heavy ships engines had historically?
Naval aviation is another huge area where both the Italians and Germany could and should be working closely with the Japanese.
Italy too is another nation that the Japanese will want to work with, but what other nations could be of concern to the the USN or RN? I'm looking at Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Peru.
What other nations might the Japanese start looking at in 1923, that they could stand up later on as a potential ally/trade partner. Trade partners (that stay out of any war) should be of great value
Not necessarily, the attacking planes were very flammable and unescorted.
The Bf-109 is extremely limited as a carrier fighter (even more than the Spitfire) and the RN is likely to attack at night if there's a German carrier present. With no command experience of operating carriers and a fighter that did its best to kill a lot of pilots on dry land where the runway generally doesn't move by tens of feet in three dimensions, I wouldn't put money on the Germans killing many RN aircraft even if they are unescorted.
Me neither.
What I was talking about was the PoW and Repulse sailing with a British carrier, so they got aircover when attacked by the Japanese. This started with my comment that although the Tirpitz lying in the Norwegian fjords tied up some British battleships and a carrier, this didn't help the Germans at all, but only the Japanese.
Guys, can we follow the rules and keep the discussion focused, right now, on the 1923 - 1926 time period? I'm attempting to make the thread easily followable by using the threadmark feature to guide the discussion along the path, because we are attempting to achieve a thread where we end up with optimized navies for all three axis nations, right?
Lets hold off on talk beyond 1923 - 1926 until we get to that place. Me 109T will not make an appearance in TTL, because of the differences in the development in the German armed forces, and this stems from active cooperation and codevelopment with the other two axis navies, and this process needs everyone's help by keeping posts within the threadmark posts time period.
So, to get back to the time frame of 1923 - 1926, what are some things that the three Axis navies could do, to work together and optimize themselves and each other's forces?
Last edited:
Near as I can tell Indomitable had an air group in April 1942 with.
800 Squadron: 12 Fulmar
880 Squadron: 9 Sea Hurricane
827 Squadron: 12 Albacore
831 Squadron: 12 Albacore
I don't know if that was what she was carrying in December 41, but just say she was. That gives you a max force of 21 fighters. I know people will say that's enough to destroy the whole Japanese force of 88 aircraft engaging that morning, but it's not. How many fighters were up as CAP that morning, and how many more could be launched on short notice? When the Japanese saw a carrier with Force Z Indomitable would become the focus of the attack. So, what is likely to happen?
You probably have a CAP of 4 Sea Hurricanes up and circling Force Z at say 20,000 ft. If radar is working right, and not down because of tropical conditions like on Price of Wales you may have 20 minutes warning of an incoming strike. Indomitable turns into the wind and prepares to launch the rest of her Hurricane's. Only the forward elevator could handle Hurricane's, so they have to arm, and fuel them, lift them to the flight deck, muscle them aft and get them off. By the time the first Japanese group gets there you might get 4 more into the air, (say 1 isn't airworthy), but they've had no time to climb to altitude.
The first group to attack were 8 Nell's that came in at 1118 OTL they attacked Repulse, and hit her with 1, 250 KG bomb, which did minor damage. 5 attackers were damaged. Let's say the 4 top cover Hurricane's go after the Nell's, and shootdown 4, and Indomitable takes a bomb hit on the armored flight deck, that does little damage.
The next attack comes at 1140 with 17 Nell's in 2 squadrons of 8, and 9 torpedo bombers. OTL they attacked both POW, and Repulse, hitting POW in the port shaft ally, seriously reducing her speed, and causing major flooding in machine spaces, effecting ships systems. In this TL they launch a hammer & anvil attack on Indomitable. She fights back, and makes evasive turns, and the 4 Hurricane's on the deck shoot up 4 Nell's, but 1 torpedo hits the port shaft ally causing serious flooding, and a list to port. By this point the first 4 Hurricane's have to land to refuel and rearm. They start coming down stairs at 1200 and manage to land despite the list.
At around 1220 an attack by 26 Betty's comes in, and attack from multiple directions with torpedoes. OTL, they went after POW, and hit her with 3 torpedoes which left her crippled. In this TL the 4 Hurricane's chase some Betty's at wave top height and shoot up 4, so Indomitable takes only 2 torpedo hits. One in the bow like POW, the other near a bomb magazine, like POW being hit under Y turret. Indomitable is in serious trouble, fighting fires, and suffering from loss of power, and flooding.
At about the same time another group of Betty's attack Repulse in an anvil attack hitting her with for 1, then 3 more torpedoes, which proved fatal. At 1241 a group of high-level bombers attacked the crippled POW in the OTL. In this TL they attack the crippled Indomitable. The Hurricane's are on the deck so they can't reach the high level attackers. They straddle her a number of times springing plates, and causing more flooding, and 1 bomb hits the flight deck putting a hole in it and causing damage on the upper hanger deck. Indomitable is now in a sinking state, and the captain orders abandon ship.
Now POW is undamaged, and fully fit for action, except for her rotting AA ammo, and radar problems, but Indomitable, and Repulse have sunk. OTL the Japanese scored 8 torpedo hits and lost 4 aircraft. In this TL they scored 7 torpedo hits and lost 16 aircraft, and I was being generous in having the Hurricane's shootdown all the bombers they attacked, rather than only damaging a few. It's not like they blowup every time you shoot at them. 4 fighters just aren't enough to break up the attacks by so many aircraft. Their only so fast and have so much ammo, and they can't see everything that's happening. At this point in the war fighter direction is nowhere near what it was later in the war, and with so many attackers, and so few defending fighters the controllers would be overwhelmed.
As the final attack group was heading home another wave was being prepared but the attack was canceled when they received the report that both ships had sunk. In this TL the attack proceeds, and would go in about 3 hrs. With her radar, and ammo problems POW's chances would be slim. 10 Buffaloes arrived over POW at 1318 just in time to see her sink. In this TL they see her steaming along and watch Indomitable sink. By the time the next wave comes in at about 1630 hrs. the Buffaloes would've left to refuel. The Japanese would find POW and her consorts picking up survivors and start their attacks. In the end she's probably not getting back to Singapore.