But then - why marry Anne to Richard instead of Edward of Middleham?
Wars of the Roses, Edward V and Prince Richard survive?
- Thread starter noturaveragejoe0316
- Start date
If the POD is in 1481 then Mary of Burgundy’s accident is likely to NOT happen meaning who she will be still alive and married to Maximilian, while Elizabeth will marry Charles VIII in 1484 as planned. Anne of Brittany will marry either Edward V or Richard of York meaning his brother NOT his uncle. No way who both of them will be married elsewhereour POD is 1481, so she's alive as well for now at leastassuming we're talking about Mary of York at least
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IIRC Edwards was said to be a sickly child so I think Francis II would take no chance and choose a healthy husband for Anne.
True enough, I suppose Richard with Brittany would be less paranoid too
I agree but it is still kinda neat for a Richard of Gloucester and Anne of Brittany match. Edward V could marry a Spanish infanta and Richard of York might he marry Margaret of Clarence to get the Neville lands?
I know we're not meant to be discussing matches again, but I promised to add my version of the York family TTL to the thread, so, with a few titles tweaked, here it is:
Edward IV (1442-1485) m. 1464 Elizabeth Woodville (1437-1492)
1) Elizabeth, Holy Roman Empress (b.1466) m. 1483 Maximillian, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459)
3) Cecily, Queen of Scotland (b.1469) m. 1487 James IV of Scotland (b.1473)
6) Richard, Duke of York, Norfolk and Brittany (b.1473) m.1488 Anne of Brittany (b,1477) [2]
7) Anne, Duchess of Burgundy (1475-1511) m. 1493 Phillip, Duke of Burgundy (b.1478)
9) Katherine, Princess of Asturias and Girona (b.1479) m. 1496 Juan, Prince of Asturias and Girona (1478-1497)
[1] Isabella and Edward, Prince of Wales both die in the fire at Sheen in 1497
[2] Francis sends his daughter to England to keep her safe at the outbreak of the Mad War. Edward V promptly marries her to his brother to prevent the French from being able to control her marriage, although the match isn't consummated until 1491. And yes, I have given Anne all her OTL pregnancies, with a little more luck in the survival rate of the children
Edward IV (1442-1485) m. 1464 Elizabeth Woodville (1437-1492)
1) Elizabeth, Holy Roman Empress (b.1466) m. 1483 Maximillian, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459)
- Mary of Austria (b.1484)
- Maximillian of Austria (b.1486)
- George of Austria (b.1487)
- Stillborn daughter (1489)
- Elisabeth of Austria (1491)
- Ernest of Austria (1492-1495)
- Miscarriage (1493)
- Henry of Austria (b.1496)
- Miscarriage (1498)
- Eleanor of Austria (b.1499)
- Frederick of Austria (b.1503)
3) Cecily, Queen of Scotland (b.1469) m. 1487 James IV of Scotland (b.1473)
- Isabel of Scotland (b.1490)
- James, Duke of Rothesay (1493-1496)
- Alexander, Duke of Rothesay (b.1495)
- Margaret of Scotland (b.1498)
- Stillborn daughter (b.1500)
- Edward, Duke of Ross (b.1502)
- Elizabeth of England (b.1487) (a)
- Edward, Duke of Cornwall (1488) (a)
- Anne of England (b.1490) (a)
- Miscarriage (1491) (a)
- Edward, Prince of Wales (1492 - 1497) (a)
- Richard, Duke of Cornwall (b.1494) (a)
- Anthony, Duke of Gloucester(b.1496) (a)
- Cecily of England (b.1499) (b)
- Lionel, Prince of Taranto (b.1501) (b)
- Miscarriage (1502) (b)
- Charlotte of England (b.1504) (b)
- Edmund, Duke of Cambridge (b,1506) (b)
- Joanna of England (b.1509) (b)
6) Richard, Duke of York, Norfolk and Brittany (b.1473) m.1488 Anne of Brittany (b,1477) [2]
- Francis, Count de Montfort (b.1492)
- Edward (1493)
- Stillborn daughter (1495)
- Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk (b.1496)
- Stillborn son (1497)
- Stillborn daughter (1498)
- Anne of York and Brittany (b.1499)
- Jacquetta of York and Brittany (b.1501)
- Stillborn son (b.1503)
- Miscarriage (1507)
- Elizabeth of York and Brittany (b.1510)
- Stillborn daughter (1513)
7) Anne, Duchess of Burgundy (1475-1511) m. 1493 Phillip, Duke of Burgundy (b.1478)
- Charles of Austria (b.1496)
- Eleanor of Austria (b.1500)
- Mary of Austria (b.1503)
- Maximillian of Austria (b.1507)
9) Katherine, Princess of Asturias and Girona (b.1479) m. 1496 Juan, Prince of Asturias and Girona (1478-1497)
- Isabella of Spain (b.1497)
- Juan, Prince of Asturias and Girona (b.1498)
[1] Isabella and Edward, Prince of Wales both die in the fire at Sheen in 1497
[2] Francis sends his daughter to England to keep her safe at the outbreak of the Mad War. Edward V promptly marries her to his brother to prevent the French from being able to control her marriage, although the match isn't consummated until 1491. And yes, I have given Anne all her OTL pregnancies, with a little more luck in the survival rate of the children
Seconded on the Anthony Woodville/Richard Grey being prominent courtiers. Hastings and Dorset will also stick around, and their sons might well end up taking their places as they grow.
Also, if Richard doesn't usurp his nephew, then that also takes out the 1483 rebellion, which means Buckingham keeps his head for a while longer, if not forever (the Staffords are going to do something stupid at some point...) and an awful lot of the Edwardian Yorkist gentry will also stay in place at Court. Lovell, Catesby and Ratcliffe, on the other hand, won't rise nearly so high, if their liege lord is never King.
And if Edward IV survives another couple of years, then Tudor might well be extradited to England and regain his lands as Earl of Richmond (Margaret Beaufort had managed to strike terms with Edward IV before his death, AIUI). He'll probably end up with a Herbert bride, or perhaps his stepfather will let him have a Stanley cousin or something.
The Stanleys also won't become Earls of Derby, so that's another title to play with for the Yorkist royals (though the Stanleys might continue to call themselves Kings of Mann TTL, rather than accepting a demotion to Lords as proof of their loyalty to Henry VII.)
@isabella had the title of Viscount Mohun dusted off for the Stanleys. They also have Baron Strange going for them. Not as "grand" as earl but its better than nothing
yeah, I've pretty much chosen Juana the mad for Edward V, whether or not he is unfaithful like her otl husband is up for debate, but hopefully she doesn't go crazy
Margaret of Clarence isn't a bad idea. I currently have him with Louise of Savoy, but that feels a little random anyway
alternate tree with Elizabeth of York marrying Charles VIII of France and Richard of Shrewsbury marrying Margaret of Clarence
Edward IV of England (b 1442 d 1485) married Elizabeth Woodville (b 1437), had:
1- Elizabeth (b 1466), married 1485 Charles VIII of France (b 1470)
1a- Elisabeth (b 1487)
1b- Charles Orlando (b 1489), Dauphin of France
1c- Francois (b 1490 d 1492)
1d- stillborn son, 1492
1e- Anne (b 1493 d 1496)
1f- Charlotte (b 1495)
1g- miscarriage, 1496
1h- stillborn daughter, 1497
1i- Anne (b 1498 d 1499)
1j- Francois (b 1500)
2- Mary (b 1467) married 1484 Francis II of Brittany (b 1433 d 1492), had:
2a- Marie of Brittany (b 1486)
2b- John of Brittany (b 1487 d 1490)
3b- Marguerite of Brittany (b 1489)
3- Cecily (b 1469) married 1487 James IV of Scotland (b 1473), had:
3a- Isabel of Scotland (b 1490)
3b- James (b 1493 d 1496), Duke of Rothesay
3c- Alexander (b 1495), Duke of Rothesay
3d- Margaret of Scotland (b 1498)
3e- stillborn daughter, 1500
3f- Edmund (b 1502), Duke of Ross
3g- Elizabeth of Scotland (b 1504)
4- Edward V (b 1470) married 1495 Juana of Aragon (b 1479), had:
4a- Elizabeth of England (b 1497)
4b- Edward (b 1499), Prince of Wales
4c- Richard (b 1502), Duke of Lancaster
4d- Anne of England (b 1503)
4e- Joanna of England (b 1505)
4f- Lionel of England (b 1507), twin of Margaret
4g- Margaret of England (b 1507), twin of Lionel
4h- John of England (b 1510)
4i- Ferdinand of England (b 1512)
5- Richard (b 1473), Duke of York, married 1488 Margaret of Clarence (b 1473), had:
5a- Edmund (b 1490), Earl of March
5b- Edgar of York (b 1492)
5c- Margaret of York (b 1494)
5d- Richard of York (b 1497)
5e- Isabel of York (b 1498)
6e- Mary of York (b 1500 d 1504)
6- Anne (b 1475), married 1493 Philip IV of Burgundy and Austria (b 1478), had:
6a- Charles of Burgundy and Austria (b 1496)
6b- Eleanor of Burgundy and Austria (b 1500)
6c- Mary of Burgundy and Austria (b 1503)
6d- Maximilian of Burgundy and Austria (b 1507)
6e- Anna of Burgundy and Austria (b 1509)
7- Catherine (b 1479), married 1496 Juan, Prince of Asturias and Girona, later King of Castile (b 1478 d 1510), had:
7a- Isabella of Castile (b 1497)
7b- Juan IV (b 1499), King and Castile and Prince of Girona
7c- Catalina of Castile (b 1502)
7d- Maria of Castile (b 1504)
7e- Alfonso of Castile (b 1508)
8- Bridget (b 1480), a nun
Richard, Duke of Gloucester (b 1452), married 1472 Anne Neville (b 1456 d 1488)(A), married 1494 Anne, Duchess of Brittany (b 1477) had:
1- Edward of Middleham (b 1474)(A)
2- Anne of Gloucester(b 1483)(A)
3- miscarriage, 1485 (A)
4- Richard of Gloucester (b 1487)(A)
5- Francis of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1496)(B)
6- Elizabeth of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1498 d 1500)(B)
7- Margaret of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1500)(B)
8- Cecily of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1503)(B)
9- miscarriage, 1504
10- John of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1506)(B)
1- Elizabeth (b 1466), married 1485 Charles VIII of France (b 1470)
1a- Elisabeth (b 1487)
1b- Charles Orlando (b 1489), Dauphin of France
1c- Francois (b 1490 d 1492)
1d- stillborn son, 1492
1e- Anne (b 1493 d 1496)
1f- Charlotte (b 1495)
1g- miscarriage, 1496
1h- stillborn daughter, 1497
1i- Anne (b 1498 d 1499)
1j- Francois (b 1500)
2- Mary (b 1467) married 1484 Francis II of Brittany (b 1433 d 1492), had:
2a- Marie of Brittany (b 1486)
2b- John of Brittany (b 1487 d 1490)
3b- Marguerite of Brittany (b 1489)
3- Cecily (b 1469) married 1487 James IV of Scotland (b 1473), had:
3a- Isabel of Scotland (b 1490)
3b- James (b 1493 d 1496), Duke of Rothesay
3c- Alexander (b 1495), Duke of Rothesay
3d- Margaret of Scotland (b 1498)
3e- stillborn daughter, 1500
3f- Edmund (b 1502), Duke of Ross
3g- Elizabeth of Scotland (b 1504)
4- Edward V (b 1470) married 1495 Juana of Aragon (b 1479), had:
4a- Elizabeth of England (b 1497)
4b- Edward (b 1499), Prince of Wales
4c- Richard (b 1502), Duke of Lancaster
4d- Anne of England (b 1503)
4e- Joanna of England (b 1505)
4f- Lionel of England (b 1507), twin of Margaret
4g- Margaret of England (b 1507), twin of Lionel
4h- John of England (b 1510)
4i- Ferdinand of England (b 1512)
5- Richard (b 1473), Duke of York, married 1488 Margaret of Clarence (b 1473), had:
5a- Edmund (b 1490), Earl of March
5b- Edgar of York (b 1492)
5c- Margaret of York (b 1494)
5d- Richard of York (b 1497)
5e- Isabel of York (b 1498)
6e- Mary of York (b 1500 d 1504)
6- Anne (b 1475), married 1493 Philip IV of Burgundy and Austria (b 1478), had:
6a- Charles of Burgundy and Austria (b 1496)
6b- Eleanor of Burgundy and Austria (b 1500)
6c- Mary of Burgundy and Austria (b 1503)
6d- Maximilian of Burgundy and Austria (b 1507)
6e- Anna of Burgundy and Austria (b 1509)
7- Catherine (b 1479), married 1496 Juan, Prince of Asturias and Girona, later King of Castile (b 1478 d 1510), had:
7a- Isabella of Castile (b 1497)
7b- Juan IV (b 1499), King and Castile and Prince of Girona
7c- Catalina of Castile (b 1502)
7d- Maria of Castile (b 1504)
7e- Alfonso of Castile (b 1508)
8- Bridget (b 1480), a nun
Richard, Duke of Gloucester (b 1452), married 1472 Anne Neville (b 1456 d 1488)(A), married 1494 Anne, Duchess of Brittany (b 1477) had:
1- Edward of Middleham (b 1474)(A)
2- Anne of Gloucester(b 1483)(A)
3- miscarriage, 1485 (A)
4- Richard of Gloucester (b 1487)(A)
5- Francis of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1496)(B)
6- Elizabeth of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1498 d 1500)(B)
7- Margaret of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1500)(B)
8- Cecily of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1503)(B)
9- miscarriage, 1504
10- John of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1506)(B)
The Stanleys would get three baronies (Stanley plus Strange and Mohun from the wife of the OTL second Earl, who was also first cousin of Edward V from their mother’s side)
I think he was made a ward of Dorset during Edward IV’s reign? Presumably that situation would persist with Edward living longer and no Richard III coup.
Dorset would have some say over his marriage if so- Dorset doesn’t have any age appropriate daughters, but could probably turn up someone Woodville-affiliated?
Lady Anne Grey, daughter of the Earl of Kent? She's very young, but her father's first wife was a Woodville. Or maybe a FitzAlan girl, if one of the right age can be found?
Who told you who Dorset had no daughter of a compatible age to marry to Warwick? Dorset remarried to Cecily Bonville a year before Warwick’s birth and had seven sons and seven daughters and while we do not have the birth years of many children, Dorothy‘s birth year is given as 1480 (so five years younger) and the Eleanor/Elizabeth married to John Arundel must be born at the latest in the early 1480s as she had 4 children before dying in 1503 (and is likely who she was the eldest daughter). Elizabeth, Mary, Cecily and likely Margaret are all born in the 1490s and we have no date for Bridget, who died early, but the eldest daughter of Dorset (either Eleanor or Dorothy) has the right age for marrying Warwick.