No Westland Lysander, Army gets two A/C types instead

[The Wooksta!]

Dagger was a horrible engine, over cooling on the ground and over heating in the air. The noise it made caused the crews intense discomfort. The only type that used it, the Hereford, was quickly relegated to training use.

And again, the Ministry *will* demand a change from Mercury due to their need for the obsolescent Blenheims, inexplicably seen as a "vital" type, so much so that machine tools used for Hercules production were switched to Mercury production (on Beaverbrook's orders) and slowed the introduction of the far superior engine by up to six months.

 

[yulzari1]

Senior officers in Bomber Command were trying to get the Battle cancelled almost as soon as it entered production. They only persisted with it because there was no alternative available in the numbers needed.

Yes, we agree.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Dagger was a horrible engine, over cooling on the ground and over heating in the air. The noise it made caused the crews intense discomfort. The only type that used it, the Hereford, was quickly relegated to training use.

Tha main user of the Napier Dagger was the Hawker Hector, the final aircraft in the venerable Hart family.

Hawker Hector - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

And again, the Ministry *will* demand a change from Mercury due to their need for the obsolescent Blenheims, inexplicably seen as a "vital" type, so much so that machine tools used for Hercules production were switched to Mercury production (on Beaverbrook's orders) and slowed the introduction of the far superior engine by up to six months.

They should really have switched Blenheim production to a mix of Beauforts and Beaufighters by the end of 1940.

 

[tomo pauk]

And again, the Ministry *will* demand a change from Mercury due to their need for the obsolescent Blenheims, inexplicably seen as a "vital" type, so much so that machine tools used for Hercules production were switched to Mercury production (on Beaverbrook's orders) and slowed the introduction of the far superior engine by up to six months.

Lysander was powered by Mercury engines, so all is fine and dandy there. Perseus engines can do, too.

BTW - do you have a good source detailing Beaverbrook's order that tooling for Hercules is to be switched for Mercury production? When he ordered the switch? Thanks in advance - I'm very interested in that kind of historical information.

 

[The Wooksta!]

Early ones had Mercuries, the engines were switched to US ones at some point.

I read about the Beaverbrook orders in Graham Warner's book on the Blenheim. I'm away from my references so I can't give the exact title.

 

[tomo pauk]

Early ones had Mercuries, the engines were switched to US ones at some point.

I don't think that any Lysander was ever powered by an US engine.

I read about the Beaverbrook orders in Graham Warner's book on the Blenheim. I'm away from my references so I can't give the exact title.

Roger that.

 

[tallthinkev]

Tha main user of the Napier Dagger was the Hawker Hector, the final aircraft in the venerable Hart family.

Hawker Hector - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 792967 View attachment 792969

Nothing wrong with a beefed up member of the Hind family. Different engine (if needed), stronger undercarriage, flaps for an even slower speed, enclosed cockpit

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

This was offered to the Air Ministry before WWII so if the choice had been made to split the observation and attack roles rather than order the Lysander it would be an option for the A.O.P.

Miles Whitney Straight - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Driftless]

Any good British candidates to do double duty combining the observation and flying ambulance role?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Any good British candidates to do double duty combining the observation and flying ambulance role?

Take any light touring aircraft and put a door in the rear fuselage and some clamps inside to hold a stretcher secure. Anything more than that and you need a small twin like the Airspeed Oxford or the Avro Anson.

 

[Driftless]

Any good British candidates to do double duty combining the observation and flying ambulance role?

Take any light touring aircraft and put a door in the rear fuselage and some clamps inside to hold a stretcher secure. Anything more than that and you need a small twin like the Airspeed Oxford or the Avro Anson.

Doh... I'm embarassed.... With a little Google-fu I did find a perfect Commonwealth candidate: the Noorduyn Norseman. God and and all of his Angels flew them before and during the war (and I think a few are still flying today). Tough as an old boot and highly adaptable. Being built in Canada, less strain on critical British production resources too.

 

[tallthinkev]

Wouldn't the Norseman be a little too big and too slow for both roles

 

[sonofpegasus]

The Norseman is a bit bigger (fuselage wise) than the Lysander, its only real advantage is the cabin capacity. I would keep the Norseman in it's OTL role and suggest for the British Army a combination of the Bristol 148 and the Auster. An alternative would be either the Henley or a two seat turretless Hotspur. This has the advantage that they would fit within the RAF supply chain making working from RAF airfields when necessary much easier.

 

[tomo pauk]

Wouldn't the Norseman be a little too big and too slow for both roles

The Norseman is a bit bigger (fuselage wise) than the Lysander, its only real advantage is the cabin capacity. I would keep the Norseman in it's OTL role and suggest for the British Army a combination of the Bristol 148 and the Auster.

Norseman is probably the best used as a light transport and medevac? Indeed it will be a clunky for the artillery spotting, and even an easier target for enemy fighters and AAA.

An alternative would be either the Henley or a two seat turretless Hotspur. This has the advantage that they would fit within the RAF supply chain making working from RAF airfields when necessary much easier.

A two-seat Hurricane perhaps? Can double as priority and urgent transport, backseater can operate a radio or the cameras, aircraft can lug bombs and a hefty guns battery.
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Granted, this means fighting with RAF for resources, both for airframes and engines.

 

[sonofpegasus]

I give you the two seat Hawker Hotspur. Why fly a compromised Hurricane when you can have this,

same armament as the Hurricane and in a production version fitted with a canopy in line with that of the Hawker Henley, their bigger brother.

Ideally in my book the RAF would field Henley's instead of Battles with the BEF and the Army would have their own Squadrons of ground attack Hotspurs.

 

[tomo pauk]

I give you the two seat Hawker Hotspur. Why fly a compromised Hurricane when you can have this, same armament as the Hurricane and in a production version fitted with a canopy in line with that of the Hawker Henley, their bigger brother.

Hotspur does not fit to what is specified:
The combat type is limited to under 900 HP engine, again made in UK. These power values are for 1935-36, by what time the winners will get the contract, 300 aircraft for each type. Expected is that prototypes fly before 1937, with production start before 1939.

Nor does the Hurricane that I've suggested:
Army also has no dibs on the modern monoplanes the RAF is ordering or it is about to order, like the Battle, Hurricane or Spitfire, even with the lower-powered engines.

The "under 900 HP engines" and "no dibs on modern monoplanes" limitation are stipulated for good reason: Army has far better chance to actually receive aircraft what they signed the contracts from in the time UK is trying to prepare for the upcoming aerial aggression, while the deployment to the Continent is not yet a done deal.

Ideally in my book the RAF would field Henley's instead of Battles with the BEF and the Army would have their own Squadrons of ground attack Hotspurs.

Henley is indeed a much better choice than the Battle - the extra 40+- mph is a crucial thing.
(we can also wonder how good the bomber based on a Spitfire would've been...)

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Back to my suggestion for adapting the Kestrel/Master for the Army Co-Operation attack role. I think it inevitable that at some point they'd try fitting the Rolls Royce Peregrine to it, which is likely to push it over 300mph and allow for armour and self-sealing fuel tanks. I also think it likely that they'd investigate fitting the Bristol Taurus engine, though this will push it above your 900hp limit. By that time though the aircraft would be approaching the limits imposed by its very thick wing roots.

 

[Driftless]

Back to my suggestion for adapting the Kestrel/Master for the Army Co-Operation attack role. I think it inevitable that at some point they'd try fitting the Rolls Royce Peregrine to it, which is likely to push it over 300mph and allow for armour and self-sealing fuel tanks. I also think it likely that they'd investigate fitting the Bristol Taurus engine, though this will push it above your 900hp limit. By that time though the aircraft would be approaching the limits imposed by its very thick wing roots.

By those later stages, the aircraft has probably been farmed out to secondary or tertiary theaters (anything still flyable, that is)

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

By those later stages, the aircraft has probably been farmed out to secondary or tertiary theaters (anything still flyable, that is)

And as training aircraft for the Empire Air Training Scheme, which means the RAAF would end up using them as emergency fighters instead of the Commonwealth Wirraway.