Optimize the RN for WWII

Aye hence the twin and quad Pom's getting fielded and hopefully earlier adoption of the 20mm. Also I saw folks saying that the Nelsons were too slow. In her chase of the Bismark the Rodney was hitting 25 knots, the way the Nelrods engines were done, they could push a fair bit more power through them than was official, and this wasn't a case of screwing every valve shut to their minimums either to try and force the guts out of the engines, and it was on a ship that was in dire need of an overhaul and refit.

And if we've gone back to 23, the Nelrods are under construction, there's nothing stopping us doing what the Yanks did with the Saratogas and adding an extra 3,000 tons of stuff to them. If you could do that with the engines to get a knot or two out of them, as any more you'd have to alter the hull, that could help.
 
Start building fast destroyers and escort carriers. Convert some merchant ships if necessary. Try to get Canada to take up some of the load. Send some of those ships to do heavy patrolling in the North Sea and turn it into a graveyard for u-boats.
 
Is this enough budget to start developing a new way to power ships using the splitting of atoms and have it ready by 1927?:)
1 no
2 no
3 no
Etc.
1 nuclear fission wasn't discovered iotl until 1938. Having the 3rd sealord try to convince scientists that atoms aren't would be... difficult. (Atom =a-tomos = unsplitable/ indivisible. Heck, the neutron wasn't even discovered until 1934.
2 making a useful ship power reactor is harder, much harder, than building an Abomb. Note that the latter took 10 years longer than the former.
3 the OP proposes a modest increase in the RN budget - not Manhattan level funding.
Etc.
 
Start building fast destroyers and escort carriers. Convert some merchant ships if necessary. Try to get Canada to take up some of the load. Send some of those ships to do heavy patrolling in the North Sea and turn it into a graveyard for u-boats.

Problem here is the FAA is tiny, and even if you get it off the RAF (not a sure fire bet) You've got to expand the pilot pool, the facilties on land to train and support the crews and get them the aircraft. The RAF gave the FAA the bare minimum to survive and deploy and buggered up aircraft design.

To get more crews, you need the infrastructure in place to support them and allow the FAA/RNAS to grow again first. So once independence is won (lets say 25 by the time the treasury, naval and air ministries have stopped trying to strangle one another) what's needed is laying the fields for the future crops of pilots and aircraft to grow, churning out escort carriers etc in the early 20's to 30's will probably net you a number of ships that will be of little use by the late 30's because aircraft will have rapidly moved on and anything you've built in the 20's won't be big enough to take anything you're producing now as aircraft, possibly including Swordfish.

You'll need to get independence but not burn bridges either, maybe work out some kind of facility sharing for training and then have the FAA/RNAS guys go onto specialist training that the RN would provide facilities for. You'll also want to try and do joint stuff with aircraft and aircraft engines and let the FAA/RNAS work out its doctrine without the RAF going "You can't navigate over water unless you have two crew!"

And baring in mind this is well before radar is a thing, so the air wing of any carrier will largely be a mix of short range fighters, and longer range TBR type aircraft, at least until monoplanes start getting mature enough and aircraft manufacturers start coming out with suitable designs, all of which takes time.

I will say that I think that pre war, the FAA/RN's doctrine on aircraft use was correct. At the time, aircraft didn't really carry the weight of ordinance and there simply wasn't enough aircraft for the strikes for them to be decisive. Instead they would be used to scout, and slow the fleet, allowing for the surface ships to catch them.

The RN did this in the Med in WW2, and it worked out pretty well.

Otherwise fighters would protect the fleet and more importantly, deny enemy scouting aircraft the chance to spot the friendly fleet and get away, or to shoot down enemy aircraft that might be spotting for the enemy fleet and helping plot fall of shell etc. Which was another role the FAA had as they were also gunnery directors.

Whilst in the 30s the RN did practice putting Fisher's follies together as a full group, the lack of available carriers and putting all your eggs in one basket was generally seen as very risky. This could have given the FAA the numbers it needed if it was to conduct a massed strike, but here again the FAA instead operated even like this as waves so lots of smaller attacks but keeping the enemy spotted and keeping them under pressure was the goal.
 
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Congratulations you've been made 3rd Sea Lord at the beginning of 1923 and will hold the post till the beginning of 1939.
Your objective is to optimize the RN especially its new designs and refits of existing ships for WWII. Assume you get around a 10 to 15% larger budget than otl and slightly less moronic politicians as related to at least the 2nd LNT if not 1st LNT.
So what would you do?
Yes future knowledge is allowed to be used
Alas can't ditch 1st LNT just make it a bit less stupid.
The real Q is how early and how hard can we go? People are talking late pods, but the OP is 1923...... and says 1st LNT

I will simply remove both the scarping clause to the 1st LNT and not remove the capital ship replacement tables of the WNT....... POD........WNT ship CD, can be laid down in 1931 and RN can start to replace its old Battle fleet with fast ships in 30s all ready for action by 39.... This will blow the budget, but it will also blow everybody else, so it doesn't matter.


I want something with more anti-surface punch than just a 4” for destroyers.
Im not sure if you have plenty of CLs without hard treaty limits (even old WW1 CLs if you dont have to scrap old excess C/D class due to no 2LNT limits....) then building lots of cheap small 4" DDs (ie something like 6x4" 4x6pdr (Bofors 57mm) +ASW) might be a good idea for RN?

I'd also like to see an emphasis on forming a strike capability like the ijn in 1941, usn in 1943 and rn in 1944. Imagine a TF of 2 or 3 fleet carriers at Norway or offshore with OConnor, or 4 or 5 against Nagumo in the Indian Ocean.
Did RN not do multi CV pre WW2 they just then ran out of CVs to actually do it after losing 2 of the limited number C&G very early on and having to fight in too many places at once?

Based on the information provided by @tomo pauk and @steamboy might it be better if the Army sticks to the pom-pom instead of adopting the Bofors so we can reduce the types of gun that way?
Does the army not want the lighter and better Bofors, and with hindsight do we not anyway want to take it and redesign it for mass production and scale it to 6pdr/57mm...... (ie the hindsight ideal cold war AA weapon if you can't yet build prox fuses in numbers agreed by everybody in 50/60s...?)
 
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Riain

Banned
Did RN not do multi CV pre WW2 they just then ran out of CVs to actually do it after losing 2 of the limited number C&G very early on and having to fight in too many places at once?

The RN was using fast fleet carriers on ASW patrols, Ark Royal was attacked in 14 Sept 39 and Courageous lost to a uboat on 31 Sept 39
before this stupid task was stopped.

As for fighting in too many places at once, Norway didn't coincide with any other great sea campaign. Its a matter of priorities, for example after the fall of France every possible fast fleet carrier goes to the Eastern med to attempt to kick goals, rather than spreading them all over to defend.
 
Aye hence the twin and quad Pom's getting fielded and hopefully earlier adoption of the 20mm. Also I saw folks saying that the Nelsons were too slow. In her chase of the Bismark the Rodney was hitting 25 knots, the way the Nelrods engines were done, they could push a fair bit more power through them than was official, and this wasn't a case of screwing every valve shut to their minimums either to try and force the guts out of the engines, and it was on a ship that was in dire need of an overhaul and refit.

And if we've gone back to 23, the Nelrods are under construction, there's nothing stopping us doing what the Yanks did with the Saratogas and adding an extra 3,000 tons of stuff to them. If you could do that with the engines to get a knot or two out of them, as any more you'd have to alter the hull, that could help.
Given the Nelson's were under the 35000 ton limit by 1700 tons...you'd get 4700 extra tons to play with that way
 
The RN was using fast fleet carriers on ASW patrols, Ark Royal was attacked in 14 Sept 39 and Courageous lost to a uboat on 31 Sept 39
before this stupid task was stopped.

As for fighting in too many places at once, Norway didn't coincide with any other great sea campaign. Its a matter of priorities, for example after the fall of France every possible fast fleet carrier goes to the Eastern med to attempt to kick goals, rather than spreading them all over to defend.
I was just saying there were pre-war plans to use multiple CVs together, such as in the Med to strike Italians, it's just that early war stupid things were done to throw ships away...... and not being willing to strip any fleet complete of CVs and having ships in port at any time as the other side got to decide the time to start the operations generally....
 
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Riain

Banned
I was just saying there were pre-war plans to use multiple CVs together, such as in the Med to strike Italians, it's just that early war stupid things were done to throw ships away...... and not being willing to strip any fleet complete of CVs and having ship in port at any time as the other side got to decide the time to start the operations generally....

Ideally with the extra money available and a bit of vision the RN will work up to the treaty limits, to replace experimental carriers etc, and have 5 or 6 fast fleet carriers by 1939, and another 4 in 1940-41 started when the LNT expired. A strike doctrine should mean they aren't stupidly thrown away in 1939-40 so are available to do some damage in 1940-42.
 
Ideally with the extra money available and a bit of vision the RN will work up to the treaty limits, to replace experimental carriers etc, and have 5 or 6 fast fleet carriers by 1939, and another 4 in 1940-41 started when the LNT expired. A strike doctrine should mean they aren't stupidly thrown away in 1939-40 so are available to do some damage in 1940-42.
Since 1st LNT expires on 1 Jan 37, and we get to write 2nd according to OP (and change 1st a bit...) why not simply allow keeping any ships replaced in reserve as 2nd & 3rd class ships.... like pre WW1....

We should also build a large run of fast motor oilers in the late 30s that just happen to have one designated to be converted on the stocks as an aircraft ship, pity for others if all the rest also had the same basic design and could also be converted fast?
 
I was just saying there were pre-war plans to use multiple CVs together, such as in the Med to strike Italians, it's just that early war stupid things were done to throw ships away...... and not being willing to strip any fleet complete of CVs and having ship in port at any time as the other side got to decide the time to start the operations generally....
You can blame Churchill for the anti-submarine carrier sweep stupidity.
 
You can blame Churchill for the anti-submarine carrier sweep stupidity.
Yes and Guy D'Oyly-Hughes for the other one of two of the RNs 4 large fast pre-war CVs lost early in the war due to stupidity. 50% of the big fast (pre I class) ships lost in first year!
 
How about something completely different? Dieselize the railroads. License US diesel electrics if possible. Prevent the laws preventing lorries competing with rail.
This usually comes up regarding tanks lacking decent engines. I am after the same engines, for pumps, etc, but the rail engines synergize nicely with submarines. You can't justify a fleet in the 20s, but you can find dual purpose infrastructure.
 
The only 2 things I would do is

1) not reduce the navy's man power in the early 30s

IIRC it was allowed to stagnate by 10% from roughly 100,000 in 1928 to 90,000 officers and men in 1933

Given that the nation very quickly just a few years later went 'oh shit, mad bloke in Berlin, and all sorts of mischief going on around the world' and sought to start expanding again, this extra 10% would pay massive dividends on the late 30s rebuilding of the navy.

You might be able to train a soldier in 6 months but the navy is much more technical and many of the roles require years.

And the OTL savings in wages might have paid for a single battleship over 3 years!

That extra 10,000 odd officers and trained men would pay massive dividends in what was to come

I am not so much interested in the size of the gun or the thickness of the armour - it was the chaps manning the ships that won it.

2) Invest in modernising the nations ship yards as well as introducing a buy back scheme for older ships (so long as the ship owner bought a modern fast freighter/Tanker from one of the new modern ship yards.

The Government would keep the better ships in 'ordinary' and scrap the rest (and guarantee not to sell them)

One of the issues with ship yards modernising was the large amount of vessels built during WW1 while of a old design were all relatively new - so who wants to buy a newer ship, and therefore why would ship yards modernise and increase slip lengths and train more men in modern building techniques if no one is buying ships?

This achieves several things.

  • Modernises ship yards and practices allowing for larger, faster and more modern vessels to be made
  • Keeps more ship yards and associated businesses in business - and by extension more men in work this increasing the tax's gained and decreases the burden on government and communities impacted
  • Allows for a merchant ship reserve for times of war
  • During a time of war allows the nations ship yards to build more ships, faster than OTL
Again the peacetime dividends alone is huge, the wartime dividend priceless (and not just for ship building with a larger core of people trained in modern wielding techniques for example lends itself to the expansion of AFV production for example)
 
Is there anywhere online where I could find a list of "scrapped UK Vessels" due to the Naval Treaties?
 
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