AHC/PC: Women equal in Athenian democracy

Could democratic city states in ancient Greece (pre-philip of Macedon) have plausibly accepted women as citizens who could participate and vote?

Just curious as to how/why it might happen. It doesn't have to be Athens, it could be any of the Greek city states of the time.
 
Could we somehow get Spartan influence on democratic city states? From what I remember, Spartan women had some rights of there (training, property ownership).
Only by comparison.

However, Sparta was an absolutely awful state, so not really the best to draw influence from.

If anything, probably the best state to draw inspiration from would probably be...Egypt.

Before anyone says the Minoans, we really don't know enough about them to make any judgement on how well they treated women.
 
Could we somehow get Spartan influence on democratic city states? From what I remember, Spartan women had some rights of there (training, property ownership).
Women's rights in Sparta tend to be massively overstated. They were completely kept off the army and political decisions were very much a male-only affair, among other things. They didn't have citizenship in any recognisable form.

Moreover, and as someone else has alluded to, Sparta was its own weird thing: their whole economy was powered by helots and their whole political system was built on keeping them subjugated. Their system couldn't be really an inspiration for anyone else.

More broadly, I am afraid its not possible to have gender equality in anything recognisable as Ancient Greece, mysogony was just baked too deeply into their cultural framework, sadly. Can things be made somewhat better then OTL? Sure, but nothing even close to equal rights is really plausible.
 
Women's rights in Sparta tend to be massively overstated. They were completely kept off the army and political decisions were very much a male-only affair, among other things. They didn't have citizenship in any recognisable form.

Moreover, and as someone else has alluded to, Sparta was its own weird thing: their whole economy was powered by helots and their whole political system was built on keeping them subjugated. Their system couldn't be really an inspiration for anyone else.

More broadly, I am afraid its not possible to have gender equality in anything recognisable as Ancient Greece, mysogony was just baked too deeply into their cultural framework, sadly. Can things be made somewhat better then OTL? Sure, but nothing even close to equal rights is really plausible.

Yes I agree, Sparta was a mess. I only meant that they had 1 or 2 things better, which could possibly start changes going in the right direction.

To be honest, I don't expect anything close to modern equality, just improvement / moving towards equality.
 
Yes I agree, Sparta was a mess. I only meant that they had 1 or 2 things better, which could possibly start changes going in the right direction.

To be honest, I don't expect anything close to modern equality, just improvement / moving towards equality.
And even then its worth noting that this greater equality was only enjoyed by the women of the Homoios class. Those of the Perioicos were as discriminated against as elsewhere in Greece and those among the Helots were obviously facing the same horrible treatment then their male counterparts.
 
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And even then its worth noting that this greater equality was only enjoyed by the women of the Homoios class. Those of the Perioicos were as discriminated against as elsewhere in Greece and those among the Helots were obviously facing the same horrible treatment then their male counterparts.
Truly a shining example for the world.
 
Could democratic city states in ancient Greece (pre-philip of Macedon) have plausibly accepted women as citizens who could participate and vote?
The problem is that citizenship in ancient Greece was usually tied up with military service: basically, the idea is that the people whose lives are literally on the line defending the city should be the ones who get a say in how it's run. Since women didn't fight, in Greece or in virtually any other ancient society, there was no perceived reason to let them vote.

Now, you could probably get a few female voters with the right POD, but it would be easier to do with oligarchies than with a democracy like Athens. Citizenship in oligarchies was, of course, tied up with property qualifications, and polities with a property-based franchise have sometimes had female voters even if women as a sex weren't enfranchised (e.g., in colonial America). So if you change Greek customs such that women can own property in their own right (which they generally couldn't outside Sparta, IIRC), you might see a few rich women voting in the more oligarchical city-states.
 
Truly a shining example for the world.
I mean, there is a reason why basically all the leading experts in Ancient Greece are fonder of Athens and the few who do defend Sparta are usually specialising in studying Sparta specifically (and therefore are subject to the pitfall of liking your subject because its your subject like many historians do)...
 
The problem is that citizenship in ancient Greece was usually tied up with military service: basically, the idea is that the people whose lives are literally on the line defending the city should be the ones who get a say in how it's run. Since women didn't fight, in Greece or in virtually any other ancient society, there was no perceived reason to let them vote.

Now, you could probably get a few female voters with the right POD, but it would be easier to do with oligarchies than with a democracy like Athens. Citizenship in oligarchies was, of course, tied up with property qualifications, and polities with a property-based franchise have sometimes had female voters even if women as a sex weren't enfranchised (e.g., in colonial America). So if you change Greek customs such that women can own property in their own right (which they generally couldn't outside Sparta, IIRC), you might see a few rich women voting in the more oligarchical city-states.
I'm guessing it'd be impossible to get female military service to be accepted...? Moving on then,

How/why would an oligarchical city state add rights for women?
 
How/why would an oligarchical city state add rights for women?
If we look to Medieval Europe - the guild system was a way for women to gain a degree of political power.

Not all guilds allowed women to join, or restricted them in some other ways, but there were some all-female guilds.

So, basically, money. You could make an argument that "even if you don't/aren't allowed to contribute towards the defence of the city by being part of the army/navy, you can still contribute by paying to supply it".
 
The problem is that citizenship in ancient Greece was usually tied up with military service: basically, the idea is that the people whose lives are literally on the line defending the city should be the ones who get a say in how it's run. Since women didn't fight, in Greece or in virtually any other ancient society, there was no perceived reason to let them vote.
Would it be possible to extend "military service" so it includes noncombatants who are still directly aiding the war effort?
 
I'm guessing it'd be impossible to get female military service to be accepted...? Moving on then,

How/why would an oligarchical city state add rights for women?
You might get it to initially happen by accident and then it just becomes a political norm? Like the men are away for war but political necessity requires the political assembly to meet *now* so the wives of the property holders stand in their place, and then later husband's can be like "i can't join in because I'll be away on business but my wife can stand for me"
 
Would it be possible to extend "military service" so it includes noncombatants who are still directly aiding the war effort?
There are such things as baggage handlers and people who's job it is to transport siege equipment, etc.
You might get it to initially happen by accident and then it just becomes a political norm? Like the men are away for war but political necessity requires the political assembly to meet *now* so the wives of the property holders stand in their place, and then later husband's can be like "i can't join in because I'll be away on business but my wife can stand for me"
I believe "wife acts as proxy for a husband who isn't present for some reason" is fairly common, historically.
 
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