Geronimo : What if Osama Bin Laden was killed prior to 9/11?

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Scorpius72

ahmedali said:
To solve this problem, you need Morgan Tsvangirai to make him president.
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I'd forgot about him, isn't he in prison at the moment?

ahmedali said:
This is a bit difficult because the party is of Shona ethnicity and these are the majority in Zimbabwe
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Good point however the men under Mugabe who enabled his corrupt rule and committed many crimes including the massacring of their opens in the 1980s (They had training from North Korean agents) need to be held to account in this scenario and there'd be no peace while they remain free and unpunished.

ahmedali said:
All you need is to weaken ZANU-PF and give a democratic alternative to the Shona.
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The weakening part should be easy however setting up a viable democratic alternative might be a lot harder as Mugabe and ZANU-PF went out of their way in the 1980s to destroy any opposition root-and-branch.

ahmedali said:
South Africa does not want a refugee crisis and damage to their interests
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Yeah and currently don't they already have OTL several million Zimbabwean refugees causing a lot of problems in South Africa?
 

ahmedali

Banned
Scorpius72 said:
I'd forgot about him, isn't he in prison at the moment?



Good point however the men under Mugabe who enabled his corrupt rule and committed many crimes including the massacring of their opens in the 1980s (They had training from North Korean agents) need to be held to account in this scenario and there'd be no peace while they remain free and unpunished.



The weakening part should be easy however setting up a viable democratic alternative might be a lot harder as Mugabe and ZANU-PF went out of their way in the 1980s to destroy any opposition root-and-branch.



Yeah and currently don't they already have OTL several million Zimbabwean refugees causing a lot of problems in South Africa?
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He died two years ago

They account, of course

Exactly this is the problem

Yes, and the invasion will lead to the same situation previously
 

KingSweden24

ahmedali said:
They wanted to overthrow him to establish a friendly democracy

And liberate the country and stop the expulsion of whites
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Color me extremely skeptical that New Labour in the wake of “the end of history” drums up a random campaign in Zimbabwe on the behalf of reactionary white farmers. Nobody likes Mugabe but a Saddam figure of Western loathing, he ain’t
CarlosTheAltHistoryGuy said:
Zimbabwe is a successor state of Rhodesia, who declared independence illegally
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The UDI was made by Ian Smith’s white minority government
 

ahmedali

Banned
KingSweden24 said:
Color me extremely skeptical that New Labour in the wake of “the end of history” drums up a random campaign in Zimbabwe on the behalf of reactionary white farmers. Nobody likes Mugabe but a Saddam figure of Western loathing, he ain’t

The UDI was made by Ian Smith’s white minority government
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Mugabe is hated as much as Saddam

Saddam, despite his brutality, turns out that some of the rumors about him are a lie

Whereas Mugabe is correct

In fact, why was there random support for the invasion of Zimbabwe?
 

Mynock

There is not going to be an invasion of Zimbabwe. Going into a landlocked country without the support of a coastal neighbour in order to occupy it with only the British military is a recipe for disaster. You knock out Mugabe, you'll get anarchy for a while and Britain will have to keep a lid on that. And for an aspiring Zimbabwean strongman, the allure of painting the British occupation as neocolonialism is too enticing to resist...
 

ahmedali

Banned
Mynock said:
There is not going to be an invasion of Zimbabwe. Going into a landlocked country without the support of a coastal neighbour in order to occupy it with only the British military is a recipe for disaster. You knock out Mugabe, you'll get anarchy for a while and Britain will have to keep a lid on that. And for an aspiring Zimbabwean strongman, the allure of painting the British occupation as neocolonialism is too enticing to resist...
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There is the option of invading through Namibia and Botswana (the first needs aid and will not mind the invasion if Britain promises to increase aid, and the second is hostile to Mugabe).

I really don't think so. Did Idi Amin support his people and stay when he was overthrown by Tanzania?
 

Mynock

ahmedali said:
There is the option of invading through Namibia and Botswana (the first needs aid and will not mind the invasion if Britain promises to increase aid, and the second is hostile to Mugabe).
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Namibia was close to Zimbabwe, their ruling parties were sympathetic since independence on the basis of both being anti-colonial. They won't side with their former colonial overlord against their fellow Africans. Why Botswana would want to invite a refugee crisis is beyond me. South Africa allegedly rejected the idea OTL.
ahmedali said:
I really don't think so. Did Idi Amin support his people and stay when he was overthrown by Tanzania?
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1) Tanzania was not a former colonial power and newly installed government was overthrown anyway.
2) Idi Amin had come to power by military coup, Mugabe had been a revolutionary leader. One type of leader tends to command more popular support than the other.
3) There literally were pro-Amin resistance groups for decades, that he funded.
 

ahmedali

Banned
Mynock said:
Namibia was close to Zimbabwe, their ruling parties were sympathetic since independence on the basis of both being anti-colonial. They won't side with their former colonial overlord against their fellow Africans. Why Botswana would want to invite a refugee crisis is beyond me. South Africa allegedly rejected the idea OTL.

1) Tanzania was not a former colonial power and newly installed government was overthrown anyway.
2) Idi Amin had come to power by military coup, Mugabe had been a revolutionary leader. One type of leader tends to command more popular support than the other.
3) There literally were pro-Amin resistance groups for decades, that he funded.
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With regard to popular support, it can be said that it has faded or often exists because of the fear of Zanu

(The elections that brought Zanu to power were marred by violence and voter intimidation)

I may agree that they have close relations with Zimbabwe, but I doubt that being colleagues in the struggle may mean that they do not accept greater British investment in their economy just because they are allies of Zimbabwe.

But it is still an external force

Just as Blair was able to participate in the invasion of Iraq, although the opposition within Britain was great

I think he will do for Zimbabwe
 

ahmedali

Banned
About video games

The character of Tommy Verste could have appeared in the game Grand Theft Auto San Andreas

But the problems between Rockstar and Ray Liotta, the voice actor of Tommy, aborted the matter

So can these problems go away and we see Tommy back in the game?
 
JCC the Alt Historian

JCC the Alt Historian

ahmedali said:
About video games

The character of Tommy Verste could have appeared in the game Grand Theft Auto San Andreas

But the problems between Rockstar and Ray Liotta, the voice actor of Tommy, aborted the matter

So can these problems go away and we see Tommy back in the game?
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You mean Tommy Vercetti.

I'm not sure what would have happened if he did appear in GTA: San Andreas, but he probably would've had a minor role.
 

ahmedali

Banned
JCC the Alt Historian said:
You mean Tommy Vercetti.

I'm not sure what would have happened if he did appear in GTA: San Andreas, but he probably would've had a minor role.
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yes

Attorney Ken Rosenberg has appeared in the game so Tommy may appear without the problems with Ray Liotta

Add also that Rockstar has plans to add earthquake, fuel shooting, skateboarding, Liberty City as an extra city, chasing after that mafia member, usable car washes, buying furniture, drinking beer and driving the streetcar.

And many things that were not added to the final version, but they are present in the game files themselves

It would have been so cool
 
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