Is that on the Persian side because I don't really think that Guptas would allow the Persians to influence their subjects afterall there is a high chance that the newly converted populace may reel against their overlords.
A Light Shines East: The World of a Christian Persia
- Thread starter Merovingian
- Start date
I admit Indian history isn’t my speciality, but I’m tentatively having most of the Christian influence being around the Indus River. If this is too implausible, then I’ll change it.
Yeah I don’t think Christianity making inroads into India is implausible, Islam did as well centuries later. Who knows it may have even more success given how Buddhism is more common in India at present and can be syncretised with Christianity unlike Hinduism
LeoII
Banned
I like the inclusion of the Arascid Dynasty in Armenia and that they're still Zoroastrian/Pagan. I hope there's a reverasal of the Battle of Aravayr, where Zoroastrian Armenians under a Mamikonian bearing the torch fights against the Persians bearing the cross.
I would suggest to keep the Christian influence outside of the subcontinent proper. Guptas were followers of Hinduism and also patronized Buddhism but I doubt they would favor a religion that is so intricately linked with their possible enemies.
While the POD is with early Christianity, I doubt it has changed much in the subcontinent. The presence of Gupta Empire alone is the proof.
Islam made inroads in the subcontinent only when it was divided. Pratihara Empire kept the Caliphate and Islamic invaders at bay for 350 years. It was only after its fall that the Islamic invasions of northern India began. Even than the region did not become completely Islamic after 1000 years of Muslim rule.
The Islamic armies never faced the Gupta Empire, which is considered the golden period of Indian History. Gupta Empuire was one of the, if not the(although I think it was better than Chinese Empires of the time), richest and most prosperous empire of its time and stopped the Hephthalites at the HinduKush(same ones who once drove the Sassanids from the plateau itself).
Buddhism has a principle of reincarnation something I don't believe exists in Christanity. At the same time Buddhism itself was on a continuous downward spiral in India even with the imperial patronage while Hinduism was in constant rise.
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Yes I do not think a north india converted not possible. After Gupta harsha and other various dynasties stopped islam penetrating india for a long period of time. I think if dynesty after harsha continues then we can see revival of buddhism. With various Buddhist universities intact and Buddhist patronage allow buddhism to revive itself. Maybe we can see evolution of more lay buddhism like Pureland buddhism aka alternative bhakti movement in india?
I think a (persian) christian North India is very possible, the way India resisted Islam is not a guarantee of imperviousity to abrahamic religions
We saw a indo-greek and indo-parthian North India before, and the persians are just as capable as the parthians while Christianity is(or was here) a greek-jewish religion, therefore a indo-persian state as the analogue to the indo-parthian kingdom with Christianity as the analogue to Hellenism could happen if the persians became christians early on
But I agree with the other posters here that with the guptas around and not - you know - butterflied, Christianity spreading through India becomes incredibly implausible if not nigh-impossible
We saw a indo-greek and indo-parthian North India before, and the persians are just as capable as the parthians while Christianity is(or was here) a greek-jewish religion, therefore a indo-persian state as the analogue to the indo-parthian kingdom with Christianity as the analogue to Hellenism could happen if the persians became christians early on
But I agree with the other posters here that with the guptas around and not - you know - butterflied, Christianity spreading through India becomes incredibly implausible if not nigh-impossible
I’ll change it so that Christianity hasn’t made it into Northern India, at least not while the Guptas are still around.
You could have it spread through southern India and Ceylon, St Thomas would probably still exist after all
The Saint Thomas Christian still exist, but don’t have a much larger presence than OTL.
that and turkic invasions
the alchon huns defeated the guptas in multiple locations and the empire would dissolve not long after the Huns were kicked from India
The empire was already in a decline at the time, powerful vassals had formed in the western and southern regions, although they would still drive the White Huns before the dissolution of their empire.
Even if Harsha's successors are not that much better than the OTL, I think the Imperial Pratiharas who were staunch Hindu would still keep Christianity at bay(they kept Islam out for 350 years).
I do not agree, there is a fundamental difference here, the pagan faiths whether they may be Asian or European do not say that only my god is real and all others are false, this is a special quality
openedeyewink of Abrahamic faiths. So, I don't think Christanity would find much acceptance in India, unless it is forced on sword point and even then well we have OTL as an example and Hindus still form a majority in the country.That is false and India itself is a evidence of that here since it was around this time that the Shaivist Huns who saw Shiva as their "One True God"(wheter they saw other deities as false or not depends on whom you ask) such as Mihirakula who persecuted buddhism with a high degree of success and led to the end of gupta rule
Compared to that a christian Indo-Persia emulating the OTL,hellenic Indo-Parthia is a rather easy pill to swallow
Specially since its rather unlikely that they'll go the crusader state route in these conditions as India is not perceived as "The Enemy" like Rome is and their main focus would be on serving as the sartrap in the region for the Persian Empire, so if anything they could actually serve as a buffer state against the huns which could at very least delay the collapse of the Indian Golden Age, but of course if we stick to following OTL because "abrahamic religion bad" under the pretense they're inherently aggressive and cant be pragmatic whatsoever what will happen is that the Alchons will - ironically enough - launch their Holy War and destroy the guptas as per OTL
now i dont know much about indian history but these events are really close Skandagupta was still a good emperor and the huns contributed to the decline as early as 455 as Skandagupta war cost a lot simply put the huns were instrumental on why the gupta empire collapsed and no new horde or power attacked them unlike in later history were t the Ghaznavids were succeeded by the ghurids and Delhi essentially giving the local indians states little breathing room
In canon timeline During the reign of Shapur II, the Sasanian Empire and the Kushano-Sasanians gradually lost the control of Bactria to these invaders from Central Asia, first the Kidarites from around 335 CE, then the Alchon Huns from around 370 CE, who would follow up with the invasion of India a century later, and lastly the Hephthalites from around 450 CE. It is not so in this timeline, Gupta are intact and all the centre for Buddhist scholarship flourishing.
In canon due to huns Indian urban culture was left in decline. Major traditional cities, such as Kausambi and probably Ujjain were in ruins, Vidisha and Mathura fell into decline. Buddhism, gravely weakened by the destruction of monasteries and the killing of monks, started to collapse. Great centers of learning were destroyed, such as the city of Taxila, bringing cultural regression. The art of Mathura suffered greatly from the destructions brought by the Hunas, as did the art of Gandhara in the northwest, and both schools of art were nearly wiped out under the rule of the Huna Mihirakula. New cities arose from these destructions, such as Dashapura, Kanyakubja, Sthaneshvara, Valabhi and Shripura.
Soon after the invasions, the Gupta Empire, already weakened by these invasions and the rise of local rulers, ended as well. Following the invasions, northern India was left in disarray, with numerous smaller Indian powers emerging after the crumbling of the Guptas. Many autonomous regional states rose to prominence following the dislocation of Gupta power: the Aulikaras, the Maukharis, the Maitrakas, the Kalacuris or the Vardhanas, all in a constant flux of rivalry.
The Huna invasions are said to have seriously damaged India's trade with Europe and Central Asia, particularly Indo-Roman trade relations, which the Gupta Empire had greatly benefited from. The Guptas had been exporting numerous luxury products such as silk, leather goods, fur, iron products, ivory, pearl and pepper from centers such as Nasik, Paithan, Pataliputra and Benares. The Huna invasion disrupted these trade relations and the tax revenues that came with them.
So I think without white huns gupta will continue to expand further and remain intact. Buddhism remain strong contender against Hinduism and we will a north india dominated by buddhism and Hinduism rather than christianity.
In canon due to huns Indian urban culture was left in decline. Major traditional cities, such as Kausambi and probably Ujjain were in ruins, Vidisha and Mathura fell into decline. Buddhism, gravely weakened by the destruction of monasteries and the killing of monks, started to collapse. Great centers of learning were destroyed, such as the city of Taxila, bringing cultural regression. The art of Mathura suffered greatly from the destructions brought by the Hunas, as did the art of Gandhara in the northwest, and both schools of art were nearly wiped out under the rule of the Huna Mihirakula. New cities arose from these destructions, such as Dashapura, Kanyakubja, Sthaneshvara, Valabhi and Shripura.
Soon after the invasions, the Gupta Empire, already weakened by these invasions and the rise of local rulers, ended as well. Following the invasions, northern India was left in disarray, with numerous smaller Indian powers emerging after the crumbling of the Guptas. Many autonomous regional states rose to prominence following the dislocation of Gupta power: the Aulikaras, the Maukharis, the Maitrakas, the Kalacuris or the Vardhanas, all in a constant flux of rivalry.
The Huna invasions are said to have seriously damaged India's trade with Europe and Central Asia, particularly Indo-Roman trade relations, which the Gupta Empire had greatly benefited from. The Guptas had been exporting numerous luxury products such as silk, leather goods, fur, iron products, ivory, pearl and pepper from centers such as Nasik, Paithan, Pataliputra and Benares. The Huna invasion disrupted these trade relations and the tax revenues that came with them.
So I think without white huns gupta will continue to expand further and remain intact. Buddhism remain strong contender against Hinduism and we will a north india dominated by buddhism and Hinduism rather than christianity.
There is no evidence of Guptas favoring one Hindu deity over other, while it is true that the emperors themselves where followers of particular deities, they never persecuted the followers of other ones. The Shaivist you are talking about belong to the post-Gupta period, particularly during Harsha's reign. as for Huns themselves, well Mihirkula was a staunch Shaivist, true but we are talking here about Gupta rule.
By the time of Skandgupta, the empire was already standing at the edge, he himself is considered the last major Gupta emperor.
According to Chinese sources the first ruler of Gupta dynasty Maharaja Gupta or Sri Gupta founded a Buddhist monastery and offered with a gift of twenty four villages to the Buddhist monks from China for maintenance. This Buddhist monastery situated at Mrigasthapana in Varendra, North Bengal. This is not connected with the region of coastal Bengal but it‟s very important to understand that, if this Sri Gupta is to be identified with the founder of Gupta Dynasty, then there does not seem to be any doubt that Buddhism had its heyday in Bengal during the early days of the Guptas. Inscriptional sources from Gupta dynasty, a direct evidence of the patronage of Gupta king Vainya Gupta, of whom a single record has been discovered at Gunaigarh copper plate near Comilla in Bangladesh (507 CE). This is the earliest evidence to show that a centre of Buddhism was emerging in the Mainamati region of Samatata.
The inscription mentioned that a gift of land from the camp of victory at Kripura by Maharaja Vainya Gupta made at the request of his vassal Maharaja Rudradatta in favour of Buddhist monastery that is called Ashrama vihara, dedicated to Avolokitesvara by Acharya Santideva, a follower of Mahayana Buddhism. Other purpose of the gift was to provide fund for the supply of food, beds, seats, garments, medicine and other requisites to the inmates of the monastic establishment and meet the expenses for repairing the building of the Ashrama vihara. On the basis of the charter of Vainya Gupta, it‟s clear that he was a great patron of Buddhist establishment. The epigraphic records provides information not only about the gift of some land and other things to the Buddhist monastery and monks for the maintenance of the Ashrama vihara, but also specifically mentions Avalokitesvara, who seems to have been the installed deity in the temple attached to the monastery.
The Chinese pilgrim Fa-hien had visited India during the Gupta period, seen twenty four Buddhist monasteries. In the later part of 5th century C.E. Ratnagiri became a famous Mahayana Buddhist centre. According to Taranath, the vihara on the top of the mountain at Ratnagiri in Orissa created in the time of Buddhapaksha, who has been identified the king Narasimhagupta Baladitya and Mahayana Buddhist scriptures were stored here. It may have been built in the later part of 5th century or the early part of the 6th century C.E. The remains of large number of Buddhist establishment dating from Gupta King Narasimhagupta Baladitya revealed here in excavation and large number of Buddhist scriptures recovered at Ratnagiri, Lalitgiri and Udaygiri, indicate that these caves were an important Mahayana Buddhist centre in the coastal Orissa with the royal support of Gupta dynasty. The Buddhist ruins at Ratnagiri, Lalitgiri and Langudi in the district of Jajpur and Cuttack, (the coastal district of Orissa) and Jajpur respectively provide some evidences to show that the monastic establishment flourished during the Gupta periods. During this period we could know from copper plate grants that there were some local rulers ruling over different parts of Orissa, constructed viharas and given donations to Buddhist institutions. Guptas were similarly sympathetic to buddhism as well.
Kumaragupta I (455 CE) is said to have founded Nalanda. Some later rulers however seem to have especially promoted Buddhism. Narasimhagupta Baladitya, according to contemporary writer Paramartha, was brought up under the influence of the Mahayanist philosopher, Vasubandhu. He built a sangharama at Nalanda and also a 300 ft (91 m) high vihara with a Buddha statue within which, according to Xuanzang, resembled the "great Vihara built under the Bodhi tree".
According to the Manjushrimulakalpa (c. 800 CE), king Narasimhsagupta became a Buddhist monk, and left the world through meditation. The Chinese monk Xuanzang also noted that Narasimhagupta Baladitya's son, Vajra, who commissioned a sangharama as well, "possessed a heart firm in faith".
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