Hard to imagine ANYTHING being worse than the irradiated hellscape that was Britain in Threads
Threads is a great film, depressing but great, I've watched it a few times. But it did concentrate on the nuclear aspect of WW3, they even choose Sheffield because the local council had declared it a 'nuclear free zone' and the local population was more anti nuclear than other major cities they could have used. So they could get lots of willing extras!

As for worse.....yeah some of the bio and chemical stuff both sides cooked up were horrible. What they could potentially do now would be even worse.
 
A new world order based in New Zealand (safe, isolated, defensible, and self-sufficient) has definitively banned nuclear weapons save for those under New-UN Security Council control to be used only for dire reasons.
New Zealand was very much part of the Western military alliance in 1970. Ie part of the old order. No new order would place a new UN in it.

If there is a new order it's going to be based on the Non Aligned Movement.

Also the UN is a meeting place not a shadowy world govt. So it needs to be accessible. You're more likely to see a new UN be in India or Indonesia.
 
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Exceedingly unlikely. No one would be capable of maintaining a military capable of that sort of power projection, nor would they have any interest in doing so.
Yeah either the old order is still around (US Navy) or we have very localized militaries who will be running out of replacement equipment.
 

marathag

Banned
Yeah either the old order is still around (US Navy) or we have very localized militaries who will be running out of replacement equipment.
If there is a new order it's going to be based on the Non Aligned Movement.

Also the UN is a meeting place not a shadowy world govt. So it needs to be accessible. You're more likely to see a new UN be in India or Indonesia.

I feel that even in a WWIII nuclear spasm, there would be surviving USN nuclear assets around, whom would not be rushing to go under the banner of some 3rd World country and declaring it to be the 'new' UN or NWO, rather than finding some Senator who survived an would now be the New President
 
I feel that even in a WWIII nuclear spasm, there would be surviving USN nuclear assets around, whom would not be rushing to go under the banner of some 3rd World country and declaring it to be the 'new' UN or NWO, rather than finding some Senator who survived an would now be the New President
Oh they aren't changing allegiance at all.

Which is why I asked earlier what's the status of NATO/WTO beyond "everyone is dead" and why I think any rebuilding will use the Non Aligned Movement instead of the UN.
 
Threads is a great film, depressing but great, I've watched it a few times. But it did concentrate on the nuclear aspect of WW3, they even choose Sheffield because the local council had declared it a 'nuclear free zone' and the local population was more anti nuclear than other major cities they could have used. So they could get lots of willing extras!

As for worse.....yeah some of the bio and chemical stuff both sides cooked up were horrible. What they could potentially do now would be even worse.
Especially the bioweapons. Imagine surviving a nuclear attack only to find, on emerging from your shelter, everyone around you driven insane with some hideous pathogen with no cure? Hyper smallpox, airborne rabies, plague, Ebola. Not sure if they had developed anything by 70, but if so the concept of meaningful societal recovery is even more laughable. Countries unaffected by the strikes would be swamped by reugees... some of whom would be infected with one smallpox, or bubonic plague or madeinasovietlabulus. The surviving military of the ussr, seeing europe a wasteland, would try to strike at remnants of the US, or become effectively pirates trying to establish a safe home somewhere.
 
Especially the bioweapons. Imagine surviving a nuclear attack only to find, on emerging from your shelter, everyone around you driven insane with some hideous pathogen with no cure? Hyper smallpox, airborne rabies, plague, Ebola. Not sure if they had developed anything by 70, but if so the concept of meaningful societal recovery is even more laughable. Countries unaffected by the strikes would be swamped by reugees... some of whom would be infected with one smallpox, or bubonic plague or madeinasovietlabulus. The surviving military of the ussr, seeing europe a wasteland, would try to strike at remnants of the US, or become effectively pirates trying to establish a safe home somewhere.
One of the first AH books I ever read ended with a gangrenous smallpox epidemic bringing a WW3 scenario to a very abrupt halt, as the surviving combatants had a 'oh crap we can settle this later' realisation. Total War 2006 I think, which just showed my age.

With stuff like Crisper DNA editing coming along since then the nightmare fuel can only get worse. Just with what the USA/USSR had in the 60-70s they could Anthrax to useless vast areas of farmland if they could deliver it.
 
Japan was hit with nuclear bombs and its civilization did not collapse
It did collapse. But because it was the only place hit with nuclear weapons (okay, Germany and Japan both suffered severe damage from conventional weapons) the rest of the world was in place to provide support so to allow it to recover. The aftermath of a nuclear war would be more like the fate of Japan if it didn't surrender, there was no invasion, and the blockade continued for years.
Japan got rebuilt from a power that hasn't had been hit by bombs in the mainland whatsoever, for any power or even a part of said power to recover from nukes, it would take the South (provided if some of the nations there are interested in helping out) or at least some other survivor state that has some resources, at the very best, if said group receiving the resources are lucky, very lucky.
Except, of course, that most of the resources were in the developed countries, which just got flattened. So any surviving countries have limited resources, even more limited ability to transport them, and are themselves staring a food shortage in the face thnaks to climate effects. Remember, in the 1966-1970 era, much of the world was far less food-secure than it is today. Nuclear winter, or even just a nuclear autumn, could cause major issues.

And that's assuming that none of the nuclear powers start chucking obsolete weapons at undeveloped countries to make sure that (say) Brazil doesn't decide to make itself a world power before they can 'recover'. Both the US and the USSR had some nuclear platforms intended to wait out an exchange, partly for this role and partly to deal with anything of the other side's that survived.
 
It did collapse. But because it was the only place hit with nuclear weapons (okay, Germany and Japan both suffered severe damage from conventional weapons) the rest of the world was in place to provide support so to allow it to recover. The aftermath of a nuclear war would be more like the fate of Japan if it didn't surrender, there was no invasion, and the blockade continued for years.

Except, of course, that most of the resources were in the developed countries, which just got flattened. So any surviving countries have limited resources, even more limited ability to transport them, and are themselves staring a food shortage in the face thnaks to climate effects. Remember, in the 1966-1970 era, much of the world was far less food-secure than it is today. Nuclear winter, or even just a nuclear autumn, could cause major issues.

And that's assuming that none of the nuclear powers start chucking obsolete weapons at undeveloped countries to make sure that (say) Brazil doesn't decide to make itself a world power before they can 'recover'. Both the US and the USSR had some nuclear platforms intended to wait out an exchange, partly for this role and partly to deal with anything of the other side's that survived.
Mass scale area denial through nuclear bombing, in essence. Was chatting to a colleague on this topic, we guessed that from 3.5bn people in the 60s, with a nuclear exchange late 60s or in 70, the population of hte world goes down to about 500m after immediate and secondary effects of war, almost all in Africa, south America, India, and a few in Aus/NZ.
 
Mass scale area denial through nuclear bombing, in essence. Was chatting to a colleague on this topic, we guessed that from 3.5bn people in the 60s, with a nuclear exchange late 60s or in 70, the population of hte world goes down to about 500m after immediate and secondary effects of war, almost all in Africa, south America, India, and a few in Aus/NZ.
That seems broadly right. Figure 1 billion immediate casualties, then 80% of the rest are taken care of by famine, disease and conflict. Because of course people will start fighting over what's left.
 
That seems broadly right. Figure 1 billion immediate casualties, then 80% of the rest are taken care of by famine, disease and conflict. Because of course people will start fighting over what's left.
Agreed. The destruction of the major world power blocs would probably cause a violent realignment, as othr countries try to take control, plus famine, disease etc as you say, the effects of fallout, and violent clashes with remnant militaries of the world powers. I imagine India is faced with war with the relict Chinese state trying to secure safe land, as mentioned elsewhere, area denial style nuclear bombs hit lot sof suurviving states.

Tech would be jury rigged, patched up and rusting, with newer products being lower quality to do the same job - so going from a wealthy person in south america having a car to them having a basic jeep/truck/citroen C1 knockoff (ie a car thats easy to repair), going from small portable radios back to bigger heavier ones, TVs becoming basically useless as time wears on as there's no expansion of tv networks as they cant build many new ones, but cinemas still exist, showing old films - but i imagine old american films are reviled, with the us being blamed as part of the people ended the world. Think cuba, in a way - old cars maintained as long as possible, buildings in disrepair, everything being secondhand or older and people making a living repairing things, with authoritarian governments rationing food, drafting civilians into 'land armies' to farm whats useable, but with added issues - cancer even more commonplce, birth defects more common even in non directly targetted areas, horses and donkeys being used for much transport. Locally made alcohol, an old gramophone, and some bread and bland vegetable stew made from the designated daily rations. Hospitals relying on basically herbal remedies, basic surgery, and doctors being trained up by older doctors, skills being lost as the equipment they involved cannto be replaced. Low level fighting in surviving nations as they squabble about the new order, and refugees living in squalid conditions and forming gangs - violence between soviet refugees and nato refugees, violence between host populations and refugees. Bands of refugees, aligned with remanant militaries trying to carve out safe havens, marauding their way around. military hardware degrading and running out of ammunition, with reversion back to bolt action rifles with locally made cartridges. After a few generations, the cities are decaying and violent, with the countryside dominated by state run farms worked by exhausted labourers. Expeditions to the northern countries reporting overgrown ruins, open mass graves filled with bones, small isolated communities of paranoid groups of survivors suffering terrible trauma, subsistence farming because supplies have long since run out, undernourished, xenophobic, under the sway of local strongmen, possibly fanatically religious or alternatively total atheists, with deformed children with damaged devlopment. Everyone refusing to talk about the immediate aftermath of the war, and how they survived.
 
Think cuba, in a way - old cars maintained as long as possible, buildings in disrepair, everything being secondhand or older and people making a living repairing things
I think a lot of that technology is going to be a wasting asset, too. If the valve in a radio blows - that may well mean that's one less person with a radio, permanently. If the crankshaft goes on even a basic car - is it more beneficial to repair it, or make something like a plough? It'll be a race against time to bootstrap some kind of industrial base before the technology needed to do so dies out. If it does, then the world is in many ways back to pre-industrial technology.
 
Let's say this nuclear exchange occurs between 1966 and 1970, assuming the contingency operations of every major power goes as planned and civilization manages to rebuild, what would a post-nuclear world look like say 30 to 40 years after? How would this affect culture including music, cars, and social taboos? Would there be more war or less war in general?
Let's take Two scenario were Time is essential for what follow next

1962 Nuclear War USA USSR, fewer Nukes with large yields
1/3 World population died in aftermath, USA lost 30 millions, while USSR, China is wipe out form existence, Europe lies in radioactive ruins.
But still there enough industrial capacity reach in 1972 pre war level in USA and undamaged parts of World.
the USA will stay for while the only superpower in World, but slowly other nations gain hardware from ruins of USSR and Europe
Like Jet-fighters, bombers and Nuclear weapons and reverse-engineer them. there will local conflicts were those nations test there new nukes !
but biggest conflict will be around 1992 were radioactivity drop to 50% making large areas in Europa, USSR and China liveable again.
and Allot local new Nations will start conquering those areas for better living conditions.
This World War 4 could base for future wars, like WW1 was for WW2 and WW3...


1983 Nuclear War USA USSR, massive number Nukes with lower yields
2/3 of World population died in aftermath, USA , USSR, China, Europe is wipe out form existence.
There is not enough industrial capacity to regain pre war level word wide, do massive infrastructure damage world wide.
i call what comes now in scenario the Mad Max era, were people fight for every scrap of food, fuel, ammo and spare part.
Around 2013 the Mad Max era start to decline do failure in parts you can't replace anymore.
in mean time the radioactivity drop to 50% making large areas in former USA, Europa, USSR and China liveable again.
After 2033 people have to rely on self made technology
Who is able to blacksmith muzzle-loader out local resource, rules the area (i mean not only the Wood, Metal, but also ingredient for blackpowder !)
It would be strange world like in former USA, you will find Nomads, people who live in medieval conditions, while others live like in 18th century.
the remains of USA would be a hotchpotch of settlements, city states, kingdoms, republics. who fighting each other vor various reasons...
possibly that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints manage to create there version of Deseret nation.
Out Utah and Idaho with own culture, believes and alphabet.
But sooner or later some one get on idea to conquer the former USA and return to it former Glory,
like the vage legend of conquer like Caesar the little or mighty Washington
if science progress is not hampers by religious dogmas or lack of resource, the world could regain pre war level in 2300~2400.
 
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I think a lot of that technology is going to be a wasting asset, too. If the valve in a radio blows - that may well mean that's one less person with a radio, permanently. If the crankshaft goes on even a basic car - is it more beneficial to repair it, or make something like a plough? It'll be a race against time to bootstrap some kind of industrial base before the technology needed to do so dies out. If it does, then the world is in many ways back to pre-industrial technology.
Absolutley - does the tech decay beyond usefulness before or after the means to make/repair it disappears?

Early 20th century cars were often repaired at Blacksmiths, I believe, with m any blacksmiths becoming petrol stations and mechanics shops; very basic cars could still be around, provided there is fuel - be it petrol, ethanol, wood gas, or steam.

Best case scenario is a generation living as a giant sanctions era cuba, stuff is old and repaired but the parts and equipment to repair it remain, th en in a couple of generations the industrial base has grown and these areas start to see mroe new, but still pretty basic and hard wearing, things being made. After a century or so, you would have stable nations slowly recovering, and expeditions to establish contact with the remanants of the destroyed nations - steamships, biplanes/seaplanes. radio, telegrams, tv for the elite or usedin public venues, established exile communities of survivors, re-opened universities teaching doctors and engineers but perhaps to 1920s - 1940s standards.

Worst case scenario - tech degrades too fast for the industrial base to be built. Societies struggle to cope, and without modern farming improvements, population growth is sluggish, and disease remains high as the medical profession reverts to basically first aid and common remedies. Governments break down amidst starvation and panic. Cities become ghost towns, unable to support enough population. after 100 years, populations are overwhelmingly rural, insular and at mid 19th century level.
 
The tech fall in the south wont be quite as drastic people are posting. Personal cars will probably be rare. But there was in1970 a good level of local manufacturing of tractors , trucks, buses and motorcycles in places like India, Indonesia and Brazil. Combined with who was running these countries at the time we could see a different transport culture where personal transport is limited to motor cycles and mopeds but state owned heavy work vehicles are still common.
 
So i'd expect to see thing like this :

Despatch from Northern Expedition no.11, March 2022
Telegram from Expedition leader

Following departure from Rio, our expedition made good progress despite the Steamer San Katerina developing a fault in the number 3 boiler, which was repaired at sea. After 3 weeks, we passed throught he Carribean islands, and made contact with scattered groups on the Windward Islands and Barbados. These included a number of individuals who were, or were descended from, members of the armed forces of the FUK, FUSA, FROF, and FKOH. We were invited to tour the remains of naval craft of these groups, and, after geiger counter readings came back as safe, were able to take a guided tour. Much of the hardware has been stripped and re-used ont he islands, but the structure remains for most, though degraded. Work has begun on creating radio relays to remaini n communication with these communities. Valuable information was given ont he state of nearby regions.

We were unable to make landfall at miami, with radiation readings too high. A tethered unmanned balloon was flown over with scientific instruments and camera equipment. The city itself appears to have sustain a direct hit from a large Soviet missile. High concentrations of contaminants were detected int he air, and the San Juanita, the ship tasked witht he investigation, was subject to intensive decontamination before rejoining the squadron. A collier became temporarily trapped in shallow waters, but was able to rejoin the squadron after some of its cargo was transferred to antoehr ship.

Upon venturing into the north of the gulf of mexico, we identified the ruins of New Orleans, largely submerged; overflights observed the ruins of Houston. Turning back, we made contact with a small group of survivors in Sarasota. A medical team was sent to shore and examined a number of individuals. Most were found to have birth defects; malformed or missing limbs, extra limbs, severely impact brain development in some cases, poor cardiac or pulmonary development, and there was a high instance of cancer among the older populations. We interviewed a number, including one elderly individual byt he name of Denise, who recoutned her youth and early adulthood in pre-war times, and had been working in a care facility for the elderly during the war. She reused to say how th staff of the facility survived the immediate aftermath of the war, following the death from hunger of most of the elderly members of the facility; our psychologist suggests deep trauma, and is suspicious of cannibalism. The community of some 600 individuals is, they say, the largest along that stretch of coastline, and consists of a single large settlement within the ruins of Sarasota, with most of hte city abandoned, but one district kept functional by salvage fromt he rest of the city. The community grows food, rather inefficiently for they lack tractors, and are forced to use human droppings as fertilizer, meaning many of the population have infections. Medical care is provided by a man called only 'Young Doc', who shows a basic familiarity with medical practise, and was trained by a physician. We learned that roughly half of pregnancies failed, and of the rest, half resulted in severely malformed but viable infants. Roughly a third of infants would die before the age of 5. The local government consisted of a council of key individuals withint he town. We were cautioned that a short distance away a group of raiders had been spotted by outriders; we dispatched a biplane, which identified a group of some 40 individuals with old vehicles, mostly old military jeeps. An envoy was sent under armed guard by our Marines; the group identified themselves as the Patriot Army of Florida, and claimed descent from former military personnell; they refused to disclose the location of their base of operations, which was evidently equipped with a stockpile of uniforms, gear, and equipment, becoming agitated and accusing out party of being 'The Reds' come to take their land. They seemed unaware that the FUSSR ceased to exist over 60 years ago. They became agressive, necessitating the withdrawal of our group, and made to attack the settlement for harbouring 'Kommis' and 'Russies'. In the ensuing confrontation, the San Juacinta was obliged to open fire, driving the attackers back with heavy casulaties. The lcoal community then demanded we leave, having brought only misfortune tot heir town.
 
So i'd expect to see thing like this :

Despatch from Northern Expedition no.11, March 2022
Telegram from Expedition leader

Following departure from Rio, our expedition made good progress despite the Steamer San Katerina developing a fault in the number 3 boiler, which was repaired at sea. After 3 weeks, we passed throught he Carribean islands, and made contact with scattered groups on the Windward Islands and Barbados. These included a number of individuals who were, or were descended from, members of the armed forces of the FUK, FUSA, FROF, and FKOH. We were invited to tour the remains of naval craft of these groups, and, after geiger counter readings came back as safe, were able to take a guided tour. Much of the hardware has been stripped and re-used ont he islands, but the structure remains for most, though degraded. Work has begun on creating radio relays to remaini n communication with these communities. Valuable information was given ont he state of nearby regions.

We were unable to make landfall at miami, with radiation readings too high. A tethered unmanned balloon was flown over with scientific instruments and camera equipment. The city itself appears to have sustain a direct hit from a large Soviet missile. High concentrations of contaminants were detected int he air, and the San Juanita, the ship tasked witht he investigation, was subject to intensive decontamination before rejoining the squadron. A collier became temporarily trapped in shallow waters, but was able to rejoin the squadron after some of its cargo was transferred to antoehr ship.

Upon venturing into the north of the gulf of mexico, we identified the ruins of New Orleans, largely submerged; overflights observed the ruins of Houston. Turning back, we made contact with a small group of survivors in Sarasota. A medical team was sent to shore and examined a number of individuals. Most were found to have birth defects; malformed or missing limbs, extra limbs, severely impact brain development in some cases, poor cardiac or pulmonary development, and there was a high instance of cancer among the older populations. We interviewed a number, including one elderly individual byt he name of Denise, who recoutned her youth and early adulthood in pre-war times, and had been working in a care facility for the elderly during the war. She reused to say how th staff of the facility survived the immediate aftermath of the war, following the death from hunger of most of the elderly members of the facility; our psychologist suggests deep trauma, and is suspicious of cannibalism. The community of some 600 individuals is, they say, the largest along that stretch of coastline, and consists of a single large settlement within the ruins of Sarasota, with most of hte city abandoned, but one district kept functional by salvage fromt he rest of the city. The community grows food, rather inefficiently for they lack tractors, and are forced to use human droppings as fertilizer, meaning many of the population have infections. Medical care is provided by a man called only 'Young Doc', who shows a basic familiarity with medical practise, and was trained by a physician. We learned that roughly half of pregnancies failed, and of the rest, half resulted in severely malformed but viable infants. Roughly a third of infants would die before the age of 5. The local government consisted of a council of key individuals withint he town. We were cautioned that a short distance away a group of raiders had been spotted by outriders; we dispatched a biplane, which identified a group of some 40 individuals with old vehicles, mostly old military jeeps. An envoy was sent under armed guard by our Marines; the group identified themselves as the Patriot Army of Florida, and claimed descent from former military personnell; they refused to disclose the location of their base of operations, which was evidently equipped with a stockpile of uniforms, gear, and equipment, becoming agitated and accusing out party of being 'The Reds' come to take their land. They seemed unaware that the FUSSR ceased to exist over 60 years ago. They became agressive, necessitating the withdrawal of our group, and made to attack the settlement for harbouring 'Kommis' and 'Russies'. In the ensuing confrontation, the San Juacinta was obliged to open fire, driving the attackers back with heavy casulaties. The lcoal community then demanded we leave, having brought only misfortune tot heir town.
@FairlyUninformedGraduate is it yours ? Because I would love to READ IT !
 
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