Timeline 191 - Random Events Post Second Great War

What the status of the Mormons and their beliefs in US and Canada?
By the early 1960s there are probably fewer than 250,000 Mormons left living in the US, and the vast majority of them have given up on trying to establish an independent country in North America. Thus the US government no longer considers them a threat. Also, as the Cold War unfolds, and a new external threat arises, the leadership of the Mormon Church is able to regain some respectability by speaking out against the Red menace emanating from Russian Alaska. However, the number of Mormons living in the US might be slightly higher than 250,000 as it is believed that many within the Mormon community are practicing a sort of crypto-Mormonism in which they appear to be ordinary Protestants or Catholics in their daily lives, but then in the privacy of their own homes, they tend to revert to their traditional religous practices. By the time the 1970s roll around, few people remember or care about the uprisings which took place in Utah half a century earlier.
 
By the early 1960s there are probably fewer than 250,000 Mormons left living in the US, and the vast majority of them have given up on trying to establish an independent country in North America. Thus the US government no longer considers them a threat. Also, as the Cold War unfolds, and a new external threat arises, the leadership of the Mormon Church is able to regain some respectability by speaking out against the Red menace emanating from Russian Alaska. However, the number of Mormons living in the US might be slightly higher than 250,000 as it is believed that many within the Mormon community are practicing a sort of crypto-Mormonism in which they appear to be ordinary Protestants or Catholics in their daily lives, but then in the privacy of their own homes, they tend to revert to their traditional religous practices. By the time the 1970s roll around, few people remember or care about the uprisings which took place in Utah half a century earlier.
And the Canadian with the Mormons?
 
And the Canadian with the Mormons?
There would be even fewer Mormons living in Canada, they generally keep a low profile, and those who have chosen to remain behind after Canadian independence are usually viewed as a odd curiosity by their mostly protestant neighbors.
 
Whatever happened to McSweeney and Martin family after SGW?
Chester Martin returned to Los Angeles, California, where he resumed his career in the construction industry. However, since he was no longer able to effectively swing a carpenter's hammer due to an injury he suffered during the war, Martin took advantage of the GI Bill and studied to become a licensed electrician. Martin then went on to found a contracting firm known as Martin Electric Company which installed wiring into new residential and commercial buildings throughout Southern California. Chester Martin passed away in Simi Valley home 1964 while watching television. He was approximately seventy years old. Ironically, Chester Martin unsuccessfully attempted to block the empoyees of his firm from unionizing.

I have no information regarding Gordon McSweeny. Presumably he left the army returned to civilian life, and lived in obscurity.
 
Chester Martin returned to Los Angeles, California, where he resumed his career in the construction industry. However, since he was no longer able to effectively swing a carpenter's hammer due to an injury he suffered during the war, Martin took advantage of the GI Bill and studied to become a licensed electrician. Martin then went on to found a contracting firm known as Martin Electric Company which installed wiring into new residential and commercial buildings throughout Southern California. Chester Martin passed away in Simi Valley home 1964 while watching television. He was approximately seventy years old. Ironically, Chester Martin unsuccessfully attempted to block the empoyees of his firm from unionizing.

I have no information regarding Gordon McSweeny. Presumably he left the army returned to civilian life, and lived in obscurity.
I don't want to be rude about talking about the families of them not the person itself

If you want to know about Gordon McSweeney then here to link to him
 
If you want to know about Gordon McSweeney then here to link to him
It has been a while since I read some of the earlier novels set in the 191 Universe, but from what I can recall, and from reading the info at the above link you sent me, It seems that Gordon McSweeney was an extremely honest man, but that he was also vicious warrior. He wasn't an officer, so therefore he probably wasn't inclined to further his education after leaving the army.

After giving it some thought, I think that there are three professions which someone with Mr. McSweeney's qualities might enter into. Those careers might include city police-officer, accountant, or perhaps insurance salesman. I think that McSweeney might just a tad to quick anger to make a suitable policeman, and perhaps he'd find sitting hunched over a ledger to be tedious for his liking. Therefore, an inter-war career as an insurance saleman seems like a plausible path for Gordon McSweeney, and given his honest character, I think that he'd be very successful at it as well.

Perhaps he'd start out as a lowly life insurance salesman, but would soon rise up the ladder and eventually overseeing a smaller regional office for an insurance conglomerate from Chicago or New York. However, by the late 1930s or so, McSweeney's bumpkinish ways might start to rub his younger college educated subordinates the wrong way, and he'd probably be retired by the time the Second Great War started.

Just shooting from the hip.
 
It has been a while since I read some of the earlier novels set in the 191 Universe, but from what I can recall, and from reading the info at the above link you sent me, It seems that Gordon McSweeney was an extremely honest man, but that he was also vicious warrior. He wasn't an officer, so therefore he probably wasn't inclined to further his education after leaving the army.

After giving it some thought, I think that there are three professions which someone with Mr. McSweeney's qualities might enter into. Those careers might include city police-officer, accountant, or perhaps insurance salesman. I think that McSweeney might just a tad to quick anger to make a suitable policeman, and perhaps he'd find sitting hunched over a ledger to be tedious for his liking. Therefore, an inter-war career as an insurance saleman seems like a plausible path for Gordon McSweeney, and given his honest character, I think that he'd be very successful at it as well.

Perhaps he'd start out as a lowly life insurance salesman, but would soon rise up the ladder and eventually overseeing a smaller regional office for an insurance conglomerate from Chicago or New York. However, by the late 1930s or so, McSweeney's bumpkinish ways might start to rub his younger college educated subordinates the wrong way, and he'd probably be retired by the time the Second Great War started.

Just shooting from the hip.
I know you don't know this but Gordon McSweeney actually died during the Great War by shelling.

I was asking about their families AKA Martins and McSweeneys family members in your universe
 
I was asking about their families AKA Martins and McSweeneys family members in your universe
I imagine that the Martin family accumulated some moderate wealth from the contracting business started by Chester Martin, but for the most part they lived out their lives in relative obscurity. It is really hard to say about the McSweeney family, however. The article describes him as coming from a farm located in the Midwest. Ohio is located in the Midwest, and if his family's farm had been located in the path of the Confederate drive to Lake Erie, then it is possible that the McSweeney family may have lost everything during the war. If that were the case, then it is possible that the US government may have paid them to start a new life by resettling in Utah.

Are there any Anti-Mormon Sentiments still prevalent in the US especially in the Midwestern state?
Not so much, and the reason for that is, immediately after the most Americans are worried about two things; the unstable situation in the occupied Confederacy, and the fact that Japan is still a potential threat to the West Coast of the United States, has it wasn't in any way defeated towards the end of the Second Great War. There are also lesser concerns regarding the conflicts occurring along the border with the Republic of Texas and Mexico. Given the fact that the Mormon separatist movement is no longer a threat, and given that new unexpected crisis seem to emerge everywhere in the postwar world, most people simply forget about the uprisings in Utah, and since there aren't that many Mormons around anyway, people simply find other things to worry about.
 
Is RSFR is as bad as the Soviet Union is for its Massive famines, Big Brother surveillance and Numerous Purge IOTL?
Yes, during the earliest phases of the RSFSR, it leadership attempted to eliminate all forms of private property, including personal property, they attempted to manage the countries agriculture and critical industries through special worker's committees (which were actually run by intellectuals who didn't understand the projects they were overseeing), and they used brutal police state tactics to silence any and all criticism. Furthermore, the Trotskyist regime ruling the RSFSR believed that peaceful coexistence with the West was absolutely impossible, and that rather than improving the lives of the people living within the RSFSR, the party leadership felt that their primary goal was to export global revolution as quickly, and as violently as possible. I think that life inside the RSFSR would have been similar to life in the nation state of Eurasia found in the Novel 1984. Eventually, however, the Trotskyists have to adopt bureaucratic government strategies to effectively govern their huge country, and this creates a problem as a new privilaged class of government worker is created. One on hand the regime claims that all workers are equal, but anyone with eyes can see the growing number of government bureaucrats who can afford their own private automobiles and private apartments. Things finally reach a head in 1985 when a group of Leninists finally overthrow the Trotskysists and declare a new government. I think that by this time the Leninist would have been more level headed, and perhaps they may have eventually the type of country which the Mikhail Gorbachev of our timeline was envisioning when he launched his glasnost campaign in the late 1980s. I was imagining that Russia would remain a Marxist state until well after the turn of the century, but it would be a kinder gentler form of Marxism than ever existed in our timeline. Meanwhile, things go from bad to worse in China as the Gang of Four take complete control of the government following Mao's death, and instead of experiencing political reforms as it did in our timeline, China experiences several more decades of Cultural Revolution.
 
Last edited:
Yes, during the earliest phases of the RSFSR, it leadership attempted to eliminate all forms of private property, including personal property, they attempted to manage the countries agriculture and critical industries through special worker's committees (which were actually run by intellectuals who didn't understand the projects they were overseeing), and they used brutal police state tactics to silence any and all criticism. Furthermore, the Trotskyist regime ruling the RSFSR believed that peaceful coexistence with the West was absolutely impossible, and that rather than improving the lives of the people living within the RSFSR, the party leadership felt that their primary goal was to export global revolution as quickly, and as violently as possible. I think that life inside the RSFSR would have been similar to life in the nation state of Eurasia found in the Novel 1984. Eventually, however, the Trotskyists have to adopt bureaucratic government strategies to effectively govern their huge country, and this creates a problem as a new privilaged class of government worker is created. One on hand the regime claims that all workers are equal, but anyone with eyes can see the growing number of government bureaucrats who can afford their own private automobiles and private apartments. Things finally reach a head in 1985 when a group of Leninists finally overthrow the Trotskysists and declare a new government. I think that by this time the Leninist would have been more level headed, and perhaps they may have eventually the type of country which the Mikhail Gorbachev of our timeline was envisioning when he launched his glasnost campaign in the late 1980s. I was imagining that Russia would remain a Marxist state until well after the turn of the century, but it would be a kinder gentler form of Marxism than ever existed in our timeline. Meanwhile, things go from bad to worse in China as the Gang of Four take complete control of the government following Mao's death, and instead of experiencing political reforms as it did in our timeline, China experiences several more decades of Cultural Revolution.
Pretty sure "unhinged war-nut Trotsky" is a caricature of the actual man.
 
Speaking of China are they the same as IOTL counterpart or they are different?
China in this version of the 191 universe is more or less 90% the same as it is in our timeline, minus the existence of a free an independent Taiwan and Hong Kong. However, some important differences would be the Chinese invasion of Malaysia which occurred in the early 50s, and the fact that the Deng Xiaoping fails to rise to power following the death of Chairman Mao in 1976. Although the Chinese are able to install a puppet government in Malaysia, there is always a restive Muslim insurgency simmering below the surface, which the Chinese and their Malaysian allies can never quite defeat. The situation somewhat mirrors the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in our time line, but in this particular universe the Muslim world is not flush with cash to support their brethren in Southeast Asia, and the US and Australia only supply limited weaponry out of fear that the conflict could go nuclear.

Also, in 1976 the Chinese Army invades and annexes parts of East Turkestan. In this timeline, East Turkestan is located roughly where eastern Kazakhstan is in our timeline, and it is province of the RSFSR. The experienced gained fighting in Malaysia proves invaluable, and the Chinese Red Army quickly advances to the shores of Lake Balkhash.
The Chinese justify their invasion by accusing the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic of using East Turkestan as a spring board for launching terrorist attacks on Chinese soil. The Chinese will make further territorial grabs against the RSFSR as the world is distracted by the Japanese War the following year.

It wasn't until 1989 that Francois Mitterand finally visited Red China. Various trade agreements are signed between the European Confederation and the People's Republic of China, but liberalization moves extremely slow in China, and by the end of the late 1990s, the only passenger car being produced in the country is made under license copy of the 1975 Volkswagen Passat.
 
What was the bloodiest war since the SGW?
It is actually a tossup between two wars which occurred in the later half of the twentieth century.

The first candidate would be the war that was fought between the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic and Germany (later the European Confederation) between roughly 1948 and 1953. However, some historians consider the beginning of this war to coincide with the starting phase of the Russian Revolution in early 1946, as German troops occupying parts of the rump state Russian Empire found themselves in pitched street battles with Marxist-Trotskyist revolutionaries. However, the Russian Red Army did not actually attempt to invade Prussia until 1948. At one point the Red Army advances to within a hundred miles before they were slowly driven back towards Russian territory. Eventually an armistice is assigned with a permanent border located slightly east of Warsaw. In Western European the war is known as Trotsky's War (or sometimes as the Trotskyists War), while in the RSFSR the war was known as the War of Liberation, until 1985. It is difficult to produce an accurate casualty estimate, but historians place the number killed and maimed between eight and twenty million.

The second candidate is the Japanese War which occurred between July 1977 and March 1978. The death-toll resulting from the Japanese War ranges between 3.5 million to 4.5 million, including roughly 29,000 US troops (roughly 10,000 killed in poorly planned beach landings). The war in Japan is noteworthy for its use of lower yield superbombs, the largest land battle in history (occurring in and around Nagano, North Japan) and the brief occupation of the North Japanese capital by US troops. The Japanese War represents the first time a large contingent of US troops are used outside of North America. US President William Carter is severely discredited when he breaks his campaign promise to keep US troops out of Northeast Asia, and the American people are horrified and angered by the number of troops killed while trying to make beach landings. The war paves the way for the Democrats to return to the White House, and paves the way for the Reagan years during the 1980s.

If you talking about which war had a higher body-count, then it would be Trotsky's War in Europe (most of the deaths are Russians). However, if you're wondering which war had a bigger influence on the US, then it would be the Japanese War, which remained controversial in the mind of most Americans until the end of the century.
 
The first candidate would be the war that was fought between the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic and Germany (later the European Confederation) between roughly 1948 and 1953. However, some historians consider the beginning of this war to coincide with the starting phase of the Russian Revolution in early 1946, as German troops occupying parts of the rump state Russian Empire found themselves in pitched street battles with Marxist-Trotskyist revolutionaries. However, the Russian Red Army did not actually attempt to invade Prussia until 1948. At one point the Red Army advances to within a hundred miles before they were slowly driven back towards Russian territory. Eventually an armistice is assigned with a permanent border located slightly east of Warsaw. In Western European the war is known as Trotsky's War (or sometimes as the Trotskyists War), while in the RSFSR the war was known as the War of Liberation, until 1985. It is difficult to produce an accurate casualty estimate, but historians place the number killed and maimed between eight and twenty million.
Why this hasn't been called TGW or didn't turn Nuclear hellfire in your TL191 verse
The second candidate is the Japanese War which occurred between July 1977 and March 1978. The death-toll resulting from the Japanese War ranges between 3.5 million to 4.5 million, including roughly 29,000 US troops (roughly 10,000 killed in poorly planned beach landings).
I don't want to be morbid but wouldn't the US troops suffer a lot more casualties and deaths in the Japanese war?

Because the Japanese are very tough MF enough to literally bleed the Americans in Okinawa and Saipan, so why they didn't do that in this war?
 
Why this hasn't been called TGW or didn't turn Nuclear hellfire in your TL191 verse
Nuclear weapons weren't used during the war between Germany and the RSFSR.

Because the Japanese are very tough MF enough to literally bleed the Americans in Okinawa and Saipan, so why they didn't do that in this war?
In this case the war with Japan is different. In this war the US doesn't have to fight an island hopping war to reach the Japanese home islands, as the US (actually the North American Treaty Organization) already have an ally in South Japan. Most of the casualties occur when an American aircraft carrier is destroyed by a superbomb equipped torpedo, and also during partially botched landings at Toyama Bay. However, once they established a beachhead, the Americans were experts at mechanized infantry tactics, and they were able to reach Nagano within a few weeks. That isn't to say that they didn't pay a heavy price, but remember, in this universe the US military is willing to play extremely dirty with enemies on the battle field, and also with civilians attempting to resist its authority.
 
Top