Ghastly Victories: The United States in the World Wars
- Thread starter RamscoopRaider
- Start date
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Some of them
US? A somewhat milder depression from a less overheated economy in the 20's means they have more funds so a bigger navy and bigger army
Japan? A longer WWI benefits their economy more more and they avoided that mysterious string of deaths in the finance ministry in the late 20's*, so larger fleet and same size army because more money
UK? Larger navy, paid for by less debt repayment, more taxes and a smaller RAF (if one is paying attention they are about 2 years behind OTL)
Italy? Their navy is about the same size as OTL
France? Same as Italy, but they are screwed enough their Army is 5 divisions smaller and their air force is as far behind as the RAF
Germany? About the same as OTL, just different mix
USSR? Okay bigger navy, smaller army and air force with generally worse gear, but not quite as much bigger as one thinks
Sweden and the Netherlands? Underfunded their militaries so just raised taxes to pay for the expansion
*For a Halloween story, OTL after the Great Kanto Earthquake in 1923 they rebuilt the finance ministry on the grounds of a shrine dedicated to pacifying the vengeful ghost of Taira no Masakado, one of the three most infamous ghosts in Japanese history**. Notably after about two dozen finance ministry employees had died mysteriously in a short time period they got real serious about appeasing his ghost
**The other two being Sugawara no Michizane, who was deified as the god of ghosts and Emperor Sutoku, who was blamed for the 2011 earthquake and Fukushima nuclear disaster by a large amount of the Japanese populace
Last edited:
The question is does the war start in 39 or does it get kick back to 1940/41?
I honestly could see it being delayed till 1940 thanks to France being short 5 divisions compared to OTL.
Oh god that is BAD given the speed world war two aircraft tech moved. Legit worried they'll lose the air battle of britain.
Anyways, thank you a lot for the general rundown, it helps for keeping track of things. Seems like just about everyone sans Germany has bungled something compared to OTL. And man, that is indeed prime ghost story material, what happened to the Japanese financial ministers. What were the common causes of death? And did the ministry get built elsewhere TTL?
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Well on average aviation is about a year behind OTL, as are a few other things (most TLs tend to make everything go faster, here I am slowing things as a logical consequence to a longer WWI), Britain and France are just worse off than most RE aviation, as their budgets went elsewhere
Don't know the common causes of death, only got "mysterious" from where I heard it, and yes they built it elsewhere ITTL
Thanks for the reminder. Would a longer WW1 really delay aviation though? I've figured that, even accounting for exhaustion, it would be better on the net due to an extra 6 months of wartime R&D.
OTL WWI stunted aviation development when one compares speed and height record increases before and during the war, and the glut of demilitarized planes flooding the civilian market after the war further stunted development. A longer and more expensive WWI would further inflame those trends.
Part 5-30 Into the Abyss, Revisionist Viewpoints
RamscoopRaider
Donor
…Following the Anschluss Hitler’s eyes turned towards the east and Czechoslovakia. Twenty Two and a half percent of the country was made up of ethnic Germans, predominantly living in the border areas of the country known as the Sudetenland. This group had been largely marginalized in the formation of the state, which had been a Czech and Slovak nationalist project. The grievances of the Sudeten Germans were largely ignored by the government at large and when the Depression hit two thirds of the unemployed in the country were Germans, as the government in Prague decided that support industries in ethnically Czech lands and Slovak farmers was of higher priority.
As a result of this in 1933 the Sudeten Volkspartei, or the SuVP to distinguish it from the SVP, was formed. Entering an alliance with the Carpatho-German Party representing the ethnically German areas of the Carpathian mountains in Czechoslovakia, the party became the second largest in the country by 1935, showing a shocking degree of support among the German population. No less then 90% of the ethnically German population voted for the SuVP by 1938. Originally the SuVP had advocated a union with Austria, by 1936 that had shifted to a desire for a union with Germany as the SVP gained in influence and the success of Hitler’s Germany at revising the Versailles order became more apparent.
It was not for this reason that Hitler turned his eyes towards Czechoslovakia. He personally cared not for the plight of the Sudeten Germans, even if he publicly stated otherwise. Rather it was for the countries industry not its German population that he was covetous. Czechoslovakia had inherited almost 80% of the Austro-Hungarian Empire’s industry, placing it at number 10 in the world. Especially important was the Skoda Works in Pilsen, one of the worlds biggest arms conglomerates and a major producer of tanks and heavy naval equipment. Control of this industry would make Germany significantly stronger and accelerate Hitler’s rearmament timetable by years.
To this end in October 1938 soon after the Anschluss had officially concluded Hitler ordered that plans be drawn up for an invasion of Czechoslovakia while he took the SuVP under greater control. In January 1939 the SuVP under its leader, the former gymnastics teacher Konrad Henlein released a program of demands to the Czechoslovak government. The Karlsbad program called for Germans to receive full equality with Czechs in various ways, a German autonomous area in the Sudetenland and reparations for actions against ethnic Germans by the Czechoslovak state. This program was specifically intended to be impossible for the Czechoslovak government in Prague to agree to by Hitler, thus a reason for violence to emerge. Indeed the Czechoslovak government refused the autonomy and reparations portion of the program soon after it was presented, with violence starting immediately afterwards as an SuVP associate torched a post office.
Hitler planned that violence would escalate over the winter and spring, in time for a war in June. However in April after various acts of terrorism by the SuVP had already started Hitler pushed back his invasion to August after the Heer stated that they were unready for a major war in June. This resulted in tensions briefly lowering before spiking again in July as incidents by of violence by the SuVP resumed. The Czechs conducted a partial mobilization and began asking covertly for backing from the other powers.
The Soviets were willing to honor the alliance they had made, but stated that actual aid depended on Poland or Romania and Hungary allowing them through, as they lacked a land border. The French were willing to go to war, so long as either the British or the Soviets did as well, but they would not do so alone. The British were not willing to go to war, but sent a peace mission to try and persuade the Czechs to back down.
Seeing public support for the Czechs by the French the Heer asked for another delay to allow work of the Westwall fortifications to further progress and deter the French from interfering. Hitler begrudgingly approved of this, but stated that this would be the absolute last delay. The invasion of Czechoslovakia would take place no later than October 15th no matter what. Actions by the SuVP slowed down once more in August before heating up in September. 750,000 troops were moved to the Czech borders as an act of intimidation while newspapers played up supposed Czech atrocities against Germans.
The Czechs at this point realized that not only did the Germans want war, but that they would receive no help from abroad. The French were ambivalent, the British were begging them to give in and the Soviets had no way to intervene. The Italians were willing to guarantee their independence, and only that, but at the price of renouncing their alliance with the USSR. Their neighbors in Poland and Hungary both had territorial grudges against them, and would be just as happy to join the Germans in attacking them. Thus the Czech President Edvard Benes decided to agree to the SuVP demands of the Karlsbad program.
This move came as a shock to Hitler, who had expected the Czechs to fight tooth and nail. He ordered the SuVP to step up provocations, and shortly afterwards several SuVP parliamentarians were arrested, giving them a cause for more demonstrations. By October 1st there was a near revolt going on in the Sudetenland as border skirmishes between the Heer and the Czechoslovak Army occurred daily.
Many of Germany’s leading generals began to worry as the French announced their support of the Czechs, and the Soviets began mobilizing. The Czechs alone possessed an army 40% as large as Germany’s and one that was well equipped and on the defense with fortifications on much of the border and decent defensive ground. Combined with the probability of intervention and it was feared that Hitler was about to lead them into an unwinnable war. Thus plans were made to coup Hitler if October 15th arrived and he continued to press for war.
Hitler had every intention of doing that, but as it turned out he was not the only foreign leader with plans for Czechoslovakia…
-Into the Abyss: The leadup to the Second World War, Harper and Brothers, New York, 2009
…It is commonly believed that the actions of the Czechoslovak state are solely to blame for the radicalization of the Sudeten Germans into the most strongly Volkist population in the Greater German Reich. This paper will show that while there is strong evidence that the Sudeten German population had legitimate grievances with the Czechoslovak government, there is significantly more evidence that the Sudeten German elite deliberately sabotaged cooperation with the Czechoslovak government and fostered an attitude of negativism in denying its legitimacy from the beginning of the Czechoslovak state in 1919…
-Excerpt from Revisionist Viewpoints in History Volume XXVII, University of California Press: Berkley, 2017
As a result of this in 1933 the Sudeten Volkspartei, or the SuVP to distinguish it from the SVP, was formed. Entering an alliance with the Carpatho-German Party representing the ethnically German areas of the Carpathian mountains in Czechoslovakia, the party became the second largest in the country by 1935, showing a shocking degree of support among the German population. No less then 90% of the ethnically German population voted for the SuVP by 1938. Originally the SuVP had advocated a union with Austria, by 1936 that had shifted to a desire for a union with Germany as the SVP gained in influence and the success of Hitler’s Germany at revising the Versailles order became more apparent.
It was not for this reason that Hitler turned his eyes towards Czechoslovakia. He personally cared not for the plight of the Sudeten Germans, even if he publicly stated otherwise. Rather it was for the countries industry not its German population that he was covetous. Czechoslovakia had inherited almost 80% of the Austro-Hungarian Empire’s industry, placing it at number 10 in the world. Especially important was the Skoda Works in Pilsen, one of the worlds biggest arms conglomerates and a major producer of tanks and heavy naval equipment. Control of this industry would make Germany significantly stronger and accelerate Hitler’s rearmament timetable by years.
To this end in October 1938 soon after the Anschluss had officially concluded Hitler ordered that plans be drawn up for an invasion of Czechoslovakia while he took the SuVP under greater control. In January 1939 the SuVP under its leader, the former gymnastics teacher Konrad Henlein released a program of demands to the Czechoslovak government. The Karlsbad program called for Germans to receive full equality with Czechs in various ways, a German autonomous area in the Sudetenland and reparations for actions against ethnic Germans by the Czechoslovak state. This program was specifically intended to be impossible for the Czechoslovak government in Prague to agree to by Hitler, thus a reason for violence to emerge. Indeed the Czechoslovak government refused the autonomy and reparations portion of the program soon after it was presented, with violence starting immediately afterwards as an SuVP associate torched a post office.
Hitler planned that violence would escalate over the winter and spring, in time for a war in June. However in April after various acts of terrorism by the SuVP had already started Hitler pushed back his invasion to August after the Heer stated that they were unready for a major war in June. This resulted in tensions briefly lowering before spiking again in July as incidents by of violence by the SuVP resumed. The Czechs conducted a partial mobilization and began asking covertly for backing from the other powers.
The Soviets were willing to honor the alliance they had made, but stated that actual aid depended on Poland or Romania and Hungary allowing them through, as they lacked a land border. The French were willing to go to war, so long as either the British or the Soviets did as well, but they would not do so alone. The British were not willing to go to war, but sent a peace mission to try and persuade the Czechs to back down.
Seeing public support for the Czechs by the French the Heer asked for another delay to allow work of the Westwall fortifications to further progress and deter the French from interfering. Hitler begrudgingly approved of this, but stated that this would be the absolute last delay. The invasion of Czechoslovakia would take place no later than October 15th no matter what. Actions by the SuVP slowed down once more in August before heating up in September. 750,000 troops were moved to the Czech borders as an act of intimidation while newspapers played up supposed Czech atrocities against Germans.
The Czechs at this point realized that not only did the Germans want war, but that they would receive no help from abroad. The French were ambivalent, the British were begging them to give in and the Soviets had no way to intervene. The Italians were willing to guarantee their independence, and only that, but at the price of renouncing their alliance with the USSR. Their neighbors in Poland and Hungary both had territorial grudges against them, and would be just as happy to join the Germans in attacking them. Thus the Czech President Edvard Benes decided to agree to the SuVP demands of the Karlsbad program.
This move came as a shock to Hitler, who had expected the Czechs to fight tooth and nail. He ordered the SuVP to step up provocations, and shortly afterwards several SuVP parliamentarians were arrested, giving them a cause for more demonstrations. By October 1st there was a near revolt going on in the Sudetenland as border skirmishes between the Heer and the Czechoslovak Army occurred daily.
Many of Germany’s leading generals began to worry as the French announced their support of the Czechs, and the Soviets began mobilizing. The Czechs alone possessed an army 40% as large as Germany’s and one that was well equipped and on the defense with fortifications on much of the border and decent defensive ground. Combined with the probability of intervention and it was feared that Hitler was about to lead them into an unwinnable war. Thus plans were made to coup Hitler if October 15th arrived and he continued to press for war.
Hitler had every intention of doing that, but as it turned out he was not the only foreign leader with plans for Czechoslovakia…
-Into the Abyss: The leadup to the Second World War, Harper and Brothers, New York, 2009
…It is commonly believed that the actions of the Czechoslovak state are solely to blame for the radicalization of the Sudeten Germans into the most strongly Volkist population in the Greater German Reich. This paper will show that while there is strong evidence that the Sudeten German population had legitimate grievances with the Czechoslovak government, there is significantly more evidence that the Sudeten German elite deliberately sabotaged cooperation with the Czechoslovak government and fostered an attitude of negativism in denying its legitimacy from the beginning of the Czechoslovak state in 1919…
-Excerpt from Revisionist Viewpoints in History Volume XXVII, University of California Press: Berkley, 2017
So who's throwing the Czechs under the bus TTL? Is Chamberlain the British PM here or is it someone else? Because the only other thing I can think of is Poland suddenly switching to Hitler's side here since they have a claim of their own on the Czechs.
Perfidious Albion and cowardly France, name a more despicable duo! But the idea that a completely different power will foil Czechoslovakia's resistance plans is fascinating! I suspect whoever is responsible will be damned to hell by pretty much every historian ever, given what nightmares are to come.
Part 5-31 Into the Abyss
RamscoopRaider
Donor
…As the campaign season in China restarted the Japanese intended to launch an offensive to take the new Nationalist administrative capital at Wuhan. The Japanese believed that the Chinese expected to lose Nanking, and that taking Wuhan, the de facto capital after the fall of Nanking would cause the KMT to negotiate. The IJN wanted to conduct a straightforward advance up the Yangtze to keep the operation contained and avoid straining their logistics. The IJA instead preferred to attack Wuhan from the North, necessitating a major preparatory operation to clear out KMT forces in the way of that and the seizure of the North China plain and much of central China.
Given the realities of Japanese politics the decision was made to perform both options, with the IJN seizing China’s various ports while the IJA cut their way through North China. To enable this level of commitment the Japanese were forced to commit to a full war economy in April…
…The IJA’s campaign began well, with a rapid advance by the first army south from the Peking-Tientsin area. However as the elite 12th Division was crossing the Hutuo river near Anping it had raced too far ahead of its fellow divisions for mutual support. The Chinese noticed this and deployed most of their 1st Military Area to try and crush the isolated Japanese unit. They were successful in doing so and inflicting heavy losses on the division and forcing it to turtle up and await for reinforcements.
The Chinese planned to follow up on their success by grinding down the isolated division while inflicting heavy casualties on relief forces attempting to cross the Hutuo. Over the course of three weeks they reduced one of Japan’s elite divisions to an effective battalion and inflicted moderate casualties on two more divisions. In doing so however they had neglected to secure their flanks or rear.
The Japanese had not wasted the three weeks in April and deployed a large additional force in the form of the Central China Expeditionary Army. This force included a large contingent of tanks and motorized infantry and advanced quickly out of Shantung into the 1st Military Area’s rear. Almost 300,000 Chinese troops found themselves cut off from support, and encircled soon after. By the end of May the pocket had collapsed, 150,000 troops were captured and the rest either deserted or were forced to flee to the Communists to their west, and the Japanese were free to advance once more.
This time the target was the 5th Military Area and a repeat of the performance against the 1st. The Chinese scored some victories against isolated Japanese detachments, but were overall pushed back. The Chinese were leery of withdrawing too quickly however and this let mechanized Japanese columns push around their flanks. By mid-June it seemed that the 5th Army would follow the 1st.
However the Chinese deployed their recently formed 200th Division, equipped with cast off soviet tanks and trucks it was their only mechanized unit, to stop the Japanese eastern column. The 200th Division was annihilated in a fight with two reinforced Japanese divisions, but it was able to open a line of retreat for the 5th Military Area’s 300,000 men. Unfortunately this sacrifice proved to be in vain.
As Japanese forces were nearing the Yellow River in Mid-June Chiang made the decision to break the dikes on the Yellow River and allow it to flood while he still could. Roughly a million Chinese civilians were killed and many more forced to flee or had their livelihoods destroyed by the rushing river. However it created a barrier that the Japanese could not cross, protecting the northern flank of Wuhan and the vital industry there. Unfortunately it also proved a barrier to the retreating 5th Military Area.
Pushed south against the floodwaters by the oncoming Japanese the 5th Military Area evacuated what it could by small boat. The nature of the flooded area precluded use of larger vessels and the Chinese could only evacuate men, not heavy equipment, nor even armed men given the number of men to move. While rearguards fought to the last bullet and shell the Chinese were able to evacuate about half of the trapped force across the waters. 150,000 men were forced to surrender while another 150,000 escaped to continuing fighting, once arms could be found for them…
…The breaking of the Yellow River dikes left the Japanese with only the Yangtze River as a possible route for an advance on Wuhan. Thus in July the Japanese began advancing west up the river while large scale air attacks on both Wuhan and Chunking began. Moving up both sides the Japanese advanced quickly against moderate Chinese resistance. The Chinese had no effective answer to the Japanese tanks and gas after their losses at Shanghai and Nanking and thus were unable to inflict serious casualties on the Japanese. An exception to this rule occurred at the city of Hwaining were the Chinese were able to inflict a two week delay on the advance with urban warfare.
As the advance continued to the lake region near the confluence of the Gan and Yangtze Chinese resistance intensified. Use of suicide bombers and sword charges, previously a rare thing, became common as the Chinese became desperate and lacked modern arms for all their troops. Furthermore deliveries of Soviet “aid” and foreign purchases had by that point given the Chinese some heavy equipment to use against the oncoming Japanese. By the end of August this had mostly been used up and the Japanese advanced to Kew Keang, but the Japanese had been slowed long enough for events to the north to give the Chinese a brief respite as Japanese attention turned elsewhere…
-Into the Abyss: The leadup to the Second World War, Harper and Brothers, New York, 2009
Okay short update, I hate working Sundays, but holidays
Given the realities of Japanese politics the decision was made to perform both options, with the IJN seizing China’s various ports while the IJA cut their way through North China. To enable this level of commitment the Japanese were forced to commit to a full war economy in April…
…The IJA’s campaign began well, with a rapid advance by the first army south from the Peking-Tientsin area. However as the elite 12th Division was crossing the Hutuo river near Anping it had raced too far ahead of its fellow divisions for mutual support. The Chinese noticed this and deployed most of their 1st Military Area to try and crush the isolated Japanese unit. They were successful in doing so and inflicting heavy losses on the division and forcing it to turtle up and await for reinforcements.
The Chinese planned to follow up on their success by grinding down the isolated division while inflicting heavy casualties on relief forces attempting to cross the Hutuo. Over the course of three weeks they reduced one of Japan’s elite divisions to an effective battalion and inflicted moderate casualties on two more divisions. In doing so however they had neglected to secure their flanks or rear.
The Japanese had not wasted the three weeks in April and deployed a large additional force in the form of the Central China Expeditionary Army. This force included a large contingent of tanks and motorized infantry and advanced quickly out of Shantung into the 1st Military Area’s rear. Almost 300,000 Chinese troops found themselves cut off from support, and encircled soon after. By the end of May the pocket had collapsed, 150,000 troops were captured and the rest either deserted or were forced to flee to the Communists to their west, and the Japanese were free to advance once more.
This time the target was the 5th Military Area and a repeat of the performance against the 1st. The Chinese scored some victories against isolated Japanese detachments, but were overall pushed back. The Chinese were leery of withdrawing too quickly however and this let mechanized Japanese columns push around their flanks. By mid-June it seemed that the 5th Army would follow the 1st.
However the Chinese deployed their recently formed 200th Division, equipped with cast off soviet tanks and trucks it was their only mechanized unit, to stop the Japanese eastern column. The 200th Division was annihilated in a fight with two reinforced Japanese divisions, but it was able to open a line of retreat for the 5th Military Area’s 300,000 men. Unfortunately this sacrifice proved to be in vain.
As Japanese forces were nearing the Yellow River in Mid-June Chiang made the decision to break the dikes on the Yellow River and allow it to flood while he still could. Roughly a million Chinese civilians were killed and many more forced to flee or had their livelihoods destroyed by the rushing river. However it created a barrier that the Japanese could not cross, protecting the northern flank of Wuhan and the vital industry there. Unfortunately it also proved a barrier to the retreating 5th Military Area.
Pushed south against the floodwaters by the oncoming Japanese the 5th Military Area evacuated what it could by small boat. The nature of the flooded area precluded use of larger vessels and the Chinese could only evacuate men, not heavy equipment, nor even armed men given the number of men to move. While rearguards fought to the last bullet and shell the Chinese were able to evacuate about half of the trapped force across the waters. 150,000 men were forced to surrender while another 150,000 escaped to continuing fighting, once arms could be found for them…
…The breaking of the Yellow River dikes left the Japanese with only the Yangtze River as a possible route for an advance on Wuhan. Thus in July the Japanese began advancing west up the river while large scale air attacks on both Wuhan and Chunking began. Moving up both sides the Japanese advanced quickly against moderate Chinese resistance. The Chinese had no effective answer to the Japanese tanks and gas after their losses at Shanghai and Nanking and thus were unable to inflict serious casualties on the Japanese. An exception to this rule occurred at the city of Hwaining were the Chinese were able to inflict a two week delay on the advance with urban warfare.
As the advance continued to the lake region near the confluence of the Gan and Yangtze Chinese resistance intensified. Use of suicide bombers and sword charges, previously a rare thing, became common as the Chinese became desperate and lacked modern arms for all their troops. Furthermore deliveries of Soviet “aid” and foreign purchases had by that point given the Chinese some heavy equipment to use against the oncoming Japanese. By the end of August this had mostly been used up and the Japanese advanced to Kew Keang, but the Japanese had been slowed long enough for events to the north to give the Chinese a brief respite as Japanese attention turned elsewhere…
-Into the Abyss: The leadup to the Second World War, Harper and Brothers, New York, 2009
Okay short update, I hate working Sundays, but holidays
I get the holiday issues as my arms are still sore from all the turkeys I been weighing up.
China through is seem its up the creek without the paddle even if they manage the victory or two against the Japanese. But Chaing can't surrender or its his head. So its more of a question what does Japan do that pisses off the US enough to embargo oil?
China through is seem its up the creek without the paddle even if they manage the victory or two against the Japanese. But Chaing can't surrender or its his head. So its more of a question what does Japan do that pisses off the US enough to embargo oil?
Oh, that's gonna haunt China for decades, the sheer devastation of tens of thousands of square kilometers - including a lot of prime crop lands.
I'm not well versed in the 2nd sino-Japanese war, are they visibly further up shit creek than OTL? They did the breaking the dikes thing in OTL too, with mixed effectiveness.
Reading this every Sunday / Monday; Enjoying it...
What is the USA up to during all of this? Isolation/Ignorance or Isolation/buildup? Granted, this is the first portion of a section, but yeah....
What is the USA up to during all of this? Isolation/Ignorance or Isolation/buildup? Granted, this is the first portion of a section, but yeah....