What are some of the most surprisingly great locations for a civilization that didn't live up to it's potential?

The Ukraine was one of the main grain-producing regions of Europe during classical antiquity and from the nineteenth century onwards, but, with the exception of Kievan Rus', it's spent most of its history either inhabited by nomads or else a border region disputed by other powers.
Indo-Europeans who spread their languages through out Eurasia and their descendants who further spread their own Iteration language and culture : Are we a Joke to you?
True but the chernozem soil is pretty hard and in some places acidic, you need a heavy Iron plough pulled by a very powerful horse both of which weren't available in large quantities until the late 17th century. As for the episodic cultivation of grains, it's primarily due to climate change, which made grain cultivation viable around the river plains and also the Brutal nomads who used vast quantity of land to raise cattle and latter horses did not help settled grain cultivation either.
 
Indo-Europeans who spread their languages through out Eurasia and their descendants who further spread their own Iteration language and culture : Are we a Joke to you?
The Indo-Europeans were nomads, though. The implicit comment was that "why didn't a big sedentary civilization form there," and while the Indo-Europeans were obviously very influential globally they didn't get to that position based on building a big sedentary civilization in Ukraine (for the reasons you mention)
 
The Indo-Europeans were nomads, though
I have to strongly disagree with this, they were definitely not nomadic but they were pastoralist.
We don't really know to what extent were they in the beginning or towards the end, the nomads i was referring to were the horse breeders who we know as "Nomad" moving with their horses to new pastureland.

The indo Europeans weren't like that, for one they raised cattle and not horses and they were at the most semi nomads by 2600 bce, so it's a question of, is the glass half full or empty? They're semi nomadic yes but you could also.see them as people who were mostly settled and moved along from time to time the difference between the Indo Europeans and their "settled civilization" contemporary was that they moved slightly more often but they're not nomadic , just because they're pastoralist, and they held large land areas for their cattle to graze but they stayed on those lands for atleast 15 years before moving on.

I mean to be a nomadic people you need the necessary infrastructure from Wells to horses that you could use to manage large heards, to spoked wheel wagons and other minute stuff that they didn't develop.

So a perfect example of a nomad in history are turkic tribes, and for the question as to how indo Europeans lived? Look into the Vedas, you'll find references to their mostly settled but semi nomadic lifestyle which if you look at it was mostly a settled lifestyle. Ofcourse they didn't raise grain, they raised Cattle. Indo Europeans weren't horse riding Mongols they were at the most cow boys.

While the scythians are a perfect example of a society in transition to a full blown nomads which they became after 700 bc, so indo Europeans became nomadic in the 700bce in their scythian iteration.
 
So a perfect example of a nomad in history are turkic tribes, and for the question as to how indo Europeans lived? Look into the Vedas, you'll find references to their mostly settled but semi nomadic lifestyle which if you look at it was mostly a settled lifestyle. Ofcourse they didn't raise grain, they raised Cattle. Indo Europeans weren't horse riding Mongols they were at the most cow boys.
I mean, the Vedas are informative, but the people who wrote them down had migrated not straight off the steppes but into the BMAC area and then northeastern India/Pakistan centuries before they actually wrote them down, so I'm not sure how much we should take them as indicating, well, anything about how Indo-Europeans on the steppe lived, any more than looking at modern Europeans tells you much about how Europeans from the Renaissance lived. The Scythians are more interesting as a case, but my understanding was that the direction was the opposite of what you describe; they settled down from nomadic (or pastoralist) living in antiquity to form a sedentary agricultural society thanks to those climate fluctuations you write about and the demand of Greece and later Rome for grain.

I have to strongly disagree with this, they were definitely not nomadic but they were pastoralist.
We don't really know to what extent were they in the beginning or towards the end, the nomads i was referring to were the horse breeders who we know as "Nomad" moving with their horses to new pastureland.
I understood the term "nomad" to be meant in a looser sense indicating that the region did not see widespread sedentary agricultural settlement (as I indicated by saying "they didn't build a big sedentary civilization there," i.e. that there was no "Sumer on the Dnipro"). The Indo-Europeans were, at a minimum, pastoralists who migrated fairly often, often enough that they didn't build large settlements like their neighbors the Cuceneti-Tripolye culture (which, incidentally, would have been an even better example to bring up: they did settle substantial areas of modern Ukraine, albeit more in the northwestern areas of the country). This is clearly distinct from the "Egypt-Mesopotamia-Indus-Yellow River" pattern that seems to be under question.
 
The Los Angeles Basin is one area that I think would be good grounds for an agricultural civilization with its pleasant climate and rich resources. Obviously, one problem is the unpredictability and the heavy flooding of the Los Angeles River, but we have seen societies adapt to these conditions such as the Sumerians and the Akkadians. In fact, its abundance is probably the main reason why the Tongva never felt the need to adopt agriculture whereas other groups like the Hopi or the Hohokam relied on it for their source of food.
 
mean, the Vedas are informative, but the people who wrote them down had migrated not straight off the steppes but into the BMAC area and then northeastern India/Pakistan centuries before they actually wrote them down, so I'm not sure how much we should take them as indicating, well, anything about how Indo-Europeans on the steppe lived, any more than looking at modern Europeans tells you much about how Europeans from the Renaissance lived.
I mean that's what Asko parpola would say but genetic evidence would say that's not the case, a study by narasimha etal of bodily remains of late bronze age in central and south Asia shows that, people who migrated into south Asia came from inner Asia mountain corridor and not from BMAC, the Vaksh and Chust culture are some what closer to the modern south Asian, but it seems that the vast majority of the Indo Aryans that moved to south Asia did so directly, if you consider eastern Afghanistan part of the wider indosphere, they mixed with the people of eastern Afghanistan 1st then moved into the plains of south Asia.

And the comparison between modern Europeans and the renaissance Europe is kinda unfair, considering the technological development that took place from later 19th century to the present day, in 2600 BCE the world was in early Bronze age and in 1600 BCE when the rig veda was codified technology around the world had barely changed, yes the means of social and political organization had but technological development was pretty slow.

And one thing that a lot of people get wrong about the vedas, is that they think it narrates the events of the composer/author's Past, but they don't they narrate the events from the point of view of Puru Bharathas as they establish themselves in south Asia, battle of 10 kings is a good example, and the earliest books in the rig veda are family books, you have verses like " Spite the Non-Aryans, the Dahyus, the Aryans", my point here is that they talk about events that took place within South Asia and the Bharathas and the Purus certainly don't see themselves that they have come from outside of the subcontinent. The migrations that they talk about is from what is modern day Kabul into what is now Pakistan punjab, the lands beyond kabul is foreign to them as is the land further east.

So Vedas are like if modern Europeans narrate events of from say world war I and world war II and the events till the time when the last veda was codified.

With This i have tried to establish the context in which the vedas were composed, the events etc, now if you analyze the verses about their day to day life parallels can be drawn to life in corded ware Europe, the Nordic bronze age, the Sinthasta culture and also the Yamnaya.

So the events and locations have changed but their way of life is mostly the same and is distinguished by it's adaptation to local climates. So from the life as described in the Vedas, it's safe to say Yamnaya people were for most of their existence were pretty settled and moved once or twice in their life and that too by not a long distance and my claim is backed by science, if you analyze the dental records of the yamnaya graves, that show mineral deposits or signature in the teeth due to water consumption and trace them, you can find two or three changes in the deposit or signature while compare that to the Huns or the Scythians or the Mongols you'll find 10-15 different mineral signature. The simple reason why they did not travel long distances was because they raised cattle and cattle don't travel long distances as horses do and if you take into account the climate back then on the pontic steppe it was warm and wet and Pontic steppe was part of forest steppe a very diffrent biome from the vast grassland that we see today and most importantly the population was low so the grazing wasn't as extensive.

Of course there might have been and infact there have been instances when the Yamnaya people became nomads once in 2900 BCE and other in 2600 BCE, the latter eventually resulted them migrating en masse to Europe and changing the genetics of Europe forever.

The Scythians are more interesting as a case, but my understanding was that the direction was the opposite of what you describe; they settled down from nomadic (or pastoralist) living in antiquity to form a sedentary agricultural society thanks to those climate fluctuations you write about and the demand of Greece and later Rome for grain.
yes but Scythians started off as Andronovo cattle based pastoralist who were semi nomadic and as central asia became drier and colder they transitioned into horses and very soon they went from being semi nomadic to full blown nomads and by 900 BCE you find them raiding lands around them they expanded into the pontic steppe and later on came into contact with early classical Europe and middle east and during the zenith of classical era SOME of them settled particularly around the black sea and the Baltic, while the rest remained nomads who were later subjugated by the Sarmatians and latter the Germanic Goths, the Huns and what remained were absorbed by the Eastern slavs ( Which is why you find A LOT of Indo- Iranian vocabulary and some traditions in eastern Slavic languages and cultures) . In Central Asia, their original homeland, some migrated into Iran and India, while some remained in central Asia and were ultimately wiped out by the Iranic Huns? or did they transform into the Iranic Huns? the story gets a bit confusing but they ceased to be a ethnic group by the end of the classical age in Asia.

I understood the term "nomad" to be meant in a looser sense indicating that the region did not see widespread sedentary agricultural settlement (as I indicated by saying "they didn't build a big sedentary civilization there," i.e. that there was no "Sumer on the Dnipro"). The Indo-Europeans were, at a minimum, pastoralists who migrated fairly often, often enough that they didn't build large settlements like their neighbors the Cuceneti-Tripolye culture (which, incidentally, would have been an even better example to bring up: they did settle substantial areas of modern Ukraine, albeit more in the northwestern areas of the country). This is clearly distinct from the "Egypt-Mesopotamia-Indus-Yellow River" pattern that seems to be under question
This is what i hate about the irrational obsession over the technicalities of what constitutes a culture or a civilization. The Indo Europeans and their descendants invented Spoked wheel and spoked wheel wagons and chariots, domesticated the modern horse, made massive strides in metallurgy, were generally healthier and lived longer lives, left opulent graves and kurgans that rivaled pyramids, and most importantly they left a mark on the world, the 4 river valley civilization that you stated, 3 don't exist any more amongst them one was replaced by a Indo European civilization and we don't count them as civilized because they didn't grow grains or had a writing system or raised permanent structure.
Look the Indo Europeans used the vast land that they found themselves in and quickly found that agriculture wasn't viable in the heavy soil it's impossible to plough the land and because of the extreme weather what little you could cultivate was lost and, what did they do? innovate, they used the vast grassland to raise cattle and they lived off it's produce.
So if we are using the word nomad in a looser sense they why not culture or civilization?
 
So if we are using the word nomad in a looser sense they why not culture or civilization?
Er, because the OP seemed to be interested in places where it looks at first glance like there should have been widespread sedentary settlement, but it didn't happen? The use of language is and should be contextual to the thread and the subject at hand, and using the shorthand "nomadic" for "doesn't form sedentary settlements" and "civilization" for "does form sedentary settlements" is appropriate for this thread, where the point is to find out why the latter didn't happen in seemingly appropriate places. In another thread where we were discussing cultural accomplishments and inventions like the ones you list, which are not important or relevant in this thread, that shorthand would be irrelevant and useless.
 
Argentina the most fertile land in south America is there along with the best river system in south America
 
Er, because the OP seemed to be interested in places where it looks at first glance like there should have been widespread sedentary settlement, but it didn't happen? The use of language is and should be contextual to the thread and the subject at hand, and using the shorthand "nomadic" for "doesn't form sedentary settlements" and "civilization" for "does form sedentary settlements" is appropriate for this thread, where the point is to find out why the latter didn't happen in seemingly appropriate places. In another thread where we were discussing cultural accomplishments and inventions like the ones you list, which are not important or relevant in this thread, that shorthand would be irrelevant and useless.
Well... that's what I have been saying that indo Europeans were settled as much as those in Levant or Mesopotamia or indus valley. I know for a fact that in indus valley civilization people moved from place to place every 10-15 years because the fertility of the soil exhausted which is why you see people of that civilization gradually moving eastward and south ward which eventually caused the cities to fall and thus one of the reason for the collapse of that civilization. People in other civilization also moved around albeit much less frequently compared to the IVC and that's because they were surrounded by shrub lands and desert!
So there is no such thing as "permanent" settlement especially during the copper or early bronze age.
The dichotomy you keep pointing out makes zero sense as it cannot be applied uniformly across region as people adjusted to the surrounding.

As for existence of large settlement again, size depended on the region, IVC had 4 cities with population of 60,000 while those in Levant and Mesopotamia around the same time had a population 1/5th of that, so if you apply IVC standard to the places in Levant etc, they'd be called towns. Which is why there is a defination of a urban settlement in archeology, that is a relatively large settlement of people who make a livin' out of non agricultural activities. Were those present in yamanaya, yes! Settlement that were trading centers or forts or mining settlement and some had population runing in a few thousand which considering the level population in that area is a city.

That's my problem with your definition of the term civilization not with the op, it's just not uniform and sounds pretty much arbitrary.
 
The Ukraine was one of the main grain-producing regions of Europe during classical antiquity and from the nineteenth century onwards, but, with the exception of Kievan Rus', it's spent most of its history either inhabited by nomads or else a border region disputed by other powers.
As a community college student in Western Civ I, we were taught about the Fertile Crescent, its benefits and how it brought out the early civilizations of the Mesopotamians, yet also its downsides at being a long, flat corridor, perfect for invaders wanting to seize the fertile land of the Fertile Crescent. I think the comparison can also be applied to Ukraine, which is essentially another fertile place with a long flat corridor, perfect for invaders.
 
@D'arguini It's definitely great fertile land with lush rainforests, the problem is that the development of trade was going to take ages thanks to Africa's massive geography. The center-right portion of Africa is also a massive mountain range, home to Mount Kilimanjaro, which would have prevented any large scale commerce with West Africa and the massively rich Indian Ocean trade network. In order to be a great civilization, you need to have good trading networks with other civilizations, the Congo was not going to cut it.
The Mekong delta wasn't fully developed into a major living area until the Vietnamese started to developed it in the 16th century. Also I wonder why the Mississippi delta and river network didn't produce a unify and long lasting culture using the entire river network to make big long lasting civilization.
The problem with Southeast Asia is that the climate is so lush and hot that its great for plants and foodstuff, insects, and animals too alongside humans. Despite the paddyfield landscape typically associated with SE Asia now, Southeast Asia used to be a heavily forested place, with settlements largely confined to rivers in the past (probably, I assume, similar to the Amazon and Sub-Saharan Africa). According to Baker-Phongpaichit's "A History of Ayutthaya: Siam in the Early Modern World", right on page one, they state that the population density of SE Asia never exceeded that of a fifth or a tenth of population densities found in neighboring China and India (at least until the modern age and modern medicine although the authors don't mention that).

In Thailand for instance, for much of its history, people largely lived within cities and alongside waterways, with inland Thailand being too heavily forested and hosted too many deadly animals and insects to actually live in. We get a scenario such as with the Ayutthaya Kingdom, which has been recently argued that it was more urbanized than 18th century Europe! However, the system was very much centered around corvee labor and conscription by the elites (essentially serfdom). However, this began to change in the 18th and, especially 19th, centuries with the rise of the market economy within Siam thanks to the explosive growth of the Chinese population in the 18th century, the coming of new money into the local Thai economy through this increased trade, and the expansion of the frontier (similar to new settlers clearing up land in the Amazon in recent times) by everyday people wanting to find money and escape government-enforced conscription. It was during this historical period in which the image of Thailand as a "paddyland country" really took shape and Thailand moved from a mercantile state to an majority agrarian rice-exporting state (where 90% of the population were now rural) by 1850-1900.
 
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@D'arguini It's definitely great fertile land with lush rainforests, the problem is that the development of trade was going to take ages thanks to Africa's massive geography. The center-right portion of Africa is also a massive mountain range, home to Mount Kilimanjaro, which would have prevented any large scale commerce with West Africa and the massively rich Indian Ocean trade network. In order to be a great civilization, you need to have good trading networks with other civilizations, the Congo was not going to cut it.

The problem with Southeast Asia is that the climate is so lush and hot that its great for plants and foodstuff, insects, and animals too alongside humans. Despite the paddyfield landscape typically associated with SE Asia now, Southeast Asia used to be a heavily forested place, with settlements largely confined to rivers in the past (probably, I assume, similar to the Amazon and Sub-Saharan Africa). According to Baker-Phongpaichit's "A History of Ayutthaya: Siam in the Early Modern World", right on page one, they state that the population density of SE Asia never exceeded that of a fifth or a tenth of population densities found in neighboring China and India (at least until the modern age and modern medicine although the authors don't mention that).

In Thailand for instance, for much of its history, people largely lived within cities and alongside waterways, with inland Thailand being too heavily forested and hosted too many deadly animals and insects to actually live in. We get a scenario such as with the Ayutthaya Kingdom, which has been recently argued that it was more urbanized than 18th century Europe! However, the system was very much centered around corvee labor and conscription by the elites (essentially serfdom). However, this began to change in the 18th and, especially 19th, centuries with the rise of the market economy within Siam thanks to increased trade with China, the coming of new money into the local Thai economy through this increased trade, and the expansion of the frontier (similar to America and Argentina) by everyday people wanting to find money and escape government-enforced conscription. It was during this historical period in which the image of Thailand as a "paddyland country" really took shape and Thailand moved from a mercantile state to an majority agrarian rice-exporting state (where 90% of the population were now rural) by 1850-1900.
I've seen it argued that the rice farming that should have been able to be exploited in much of the SEA region existed since the development of cultivated rice but for some reason it remained confined to some regions
 
The Los Angeles Basin is one area that I think would be good grounds for an agricultural civilization with its pleasant climate and rich resources. Obviously, one problem is the unpredictability and the heavy flooding of the Los Angeles River, but we have seen societies adapt to these conditions such as the Sumerians and the Akkadians. In fact, its abundance is probably the main reason why the Tongva never felt the need to adopt agriculture whereas other groups like the Hopi or the Hohokam relied on it for their source of food.
The LA basin is way too small and isolated from other areas of civilization for this to work.
 
I think honestly that most lands either didn't live up to their potential at various points in time in the sense of not being as developed as they could or just only having developed agriculture, urban specialized civilization etc. at a later point in time compared to when it could have theoretically happened.

When a region constantly performs near it's theoretical max potential it's basically a "wank".

Maybe there are a few exceptions to this but not many.
 
The problem with Southeast Asia is that the climate is so lush and hot that its great for plants and foodstuff, insects, and animals too alongside humans. Despite the paddyfield landscape typically associated with SE Asia now, Southeast Asia used to be a heavily forested place, with settlements largely confined to rivers in the past (probably, I assume, similar to the Amazon and Sub-Saharan Africa). According to Baker-Phongpaichit's "A History of Ayutthaya: Siam in the Early Modern World", right on page one, they state that the population density of SE Asia never exceeded that of a fifth or a tenth of population densities found in neighboring China and India (at least until the modern age and modern medicine although the authors don't mention that).

In Thailand for instance, for much of its history, people largely lived within cities and alongside waterways, with inland Thailand being too heavily forested and hosted too many deadly animals and insects to actually live in. We get a scenario such as with the Ayutthaya Kingdom, which has been recently argued that it was more urbanized than 18th century Europe! However, the system was very much centered around corvee labor and conscription by the elites (essentially serfdom).
Interesting. It's impressive that Ankor could become one of the biggest cities in the world if the overall population density was so low. I suppose on the one hand you have fertile soil and a year-round growing season, so it will support high population densities and on the other clearing the jungle and keeping it cleared is a massive undertaking (especially before modern tools), so you end up with the population in high density clusters on favoured sites, dominated by an elite who control the land and can draft labour to maintain it. Sounds like some of the descriptions I've seen of the classical Maya. Also like a reverse of the "hydraulic empires" of the ancient Middle East in that the control element is access to cleared land, rather than water.
 
Interesting. It's impressive that Ankor could become one of the biggest cities in the world if the overall population density was so low. I suppose on the one hand you have fertile soil and a year-round growing season, so it will support high population densities and on the other clearing the jungle and keeping it cleared is a massive undertaking (especially before modern tools), so you end up with the population in high density clusters on favoured sites, dominated by an elite who control the land and can draft labour to maintain it. Sounds like some of the descriptions I've seen of the classical Maya. Also like a reverse of the "hydraulic empires" of the ancient Middle East in that the control element is access to cleared land, rather than water.
I also forgot to add that impressive "empires" did exist in Southeast Asia despite all the barriers to creating civilization as previously stated above (Angkor, Konbaung, Majapahit, etc...). If you had to put the "Lands of Red and Gold" onto an IRL place, then it would certainly be Early Modern Southeast Asia. Some of the SE Asian rulers were particularly good at imitating, and even improving at times (Lieberman, Strange Parallels Vol 2.), European guns and military tactics to deter their rivals as well as successfully fighting off the Europeans for a time.

The problem comes with the overpowered strength of the European governmental institutions and government economy, which I would imagine, was almost like alien spaceships with lasers coming to attack Earth for non-Europeans. Burma before the First-Anglo Burmese War was a regional hegemon at the height of its victories over its regional neighbors, which even saw them stand head to head against China in the 1760s (although barely winning in the end). They were overconfident of their abilities and though that they could've stand up to the British as they did with the Chinese and all of the other kingdoms they've conquered. I've heard in several places that the First-Anglo Burmese War was the most costly war the British East India Company ever fought (thanks to the well-drilled organization of the Burmese military). In the end, however, the Burmese were soundly defeated (although giving the British a run for their money had one of their generals not been killed) and would prove to be the start of their unfortunate decline, until their final annexation by Britain in the Third Anglo-Burmese War in 1885 (interestingly enough, it was thanks to British Foreign Secretary Randolph Churchill, the father of Winston Churchill, who was the main proponent of Burmese annexation). If China could've been easily defeated by the Europeans, who else could've survived except for a few lucky countries?

I think had Ayutthaya survived its destruction, then she would've been a ripe target for the Europeans (just like with China and just like with India) and Thailand might have been colonized. The then-new capital at Bangkok, despite being some kind of resurgence of Ayutthaya, was somewhat of a backwater for the Europeans (the Dutch East Indies port at Batavia still saw more shipping than Bangkok in the early 1800s), however the Bangkok rulers were loyal subjects to the Qing tributary system and received a lot of economic support from China. There was a reason the French and British decided that they would rather keep Siam as a buffer state with their elites being very accommodating of the Great Powers as they were formerly to the Chinese tribute system (which was a major source of Siamese diplomatic and economic prosperity but ended with the Opium Wars and the ascendancy of the Europeans over the Qing Empire).

About manpower, warfare was more about seizing resources than actually seizing land. When a kingdom invades another kingdom, it is to seize their people and their goods, which of course destroys real development. When Ayutthaya was sacked, the Burmese took its people, its materials, leaving only the charred remains of what was once the Siamese capital and the city never really reclaimed its former prestige. The benefits of being in SE Asia is that its at the center of trade, being situated in between India, China, the Middle East, and East Africa, so the SE Asian kings preferred importing weapons and manufactured goods from elsewhere rather than creating them themselves (although there were native manufacturing centers, however their quality was fairly sub-par compared to receiving goods from elsewhere). Mercenaries often were used by SE Asian polities, often as elite warriors and bodyguards of the monarchs.

Kind of trying to conclude my thoughts here, there was no necessity to create a native homegrown industrial sector throughout SE Asia with the lack of a substantial population, the warfare of seizing material and people over the abundance of free land in SE Asia with a low population density, the necessary components of creating a market economy, and the wealth of SE Asian polities being situated between major civilizations such as India, Persia, and China. Civilization came fairly slow to the region (i.e. the IRL Lands of Red and Gold) yet SE Asian states compensated by adopting the cultures of the major civilizations (India - Thailand, Myanmar, Cambodia, China-Vietnam, Middle East-Indonesia, Spain - Philippines) and becoming rich by being at the confluence of major trade networks, such as the South China Sea and Indian Ocean trade, which were arguably just as historically significant as Mediterranean (if not more so).
 
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The LA basin is way too small and isolated from other areas of civilization for this to work.
If you enlarged it to all the similar coastal valleys of Southern California you'd have something to work with. It's directly adjacent to the Puebloan world which was connected enough to Mesoamerica that the kachina religion borrowed Mesoamerican iconography (i.e. feathered serpents and Tlaloc-looking figures) and they were seafarers (both Chumash and Tongva were shipbuilders for around 1,500-2,000 years OTL, although the Tongva were new arrivals, earlier population in LA before 1-500 AD was probably Yuman-speaking, Chumash are probably among the earliest in California). And it's a harsh enough area for living due to drought or sudden sea temperature shifts that crash fish populations that its conceivable they might intensify gathered plants (leading to agriculture) and shift away from their extensive managed oak savannas. Although just as likely they'd never develop a "complete" agricultural package and end up using irrigation for maize/three sisters as the Puebloans did.

So it's as decent as anything in the California region IMO.
 
If you had to put the "Lands of Red and Gold" onto an IRL place, then it would certainly be Early Modern Southeast Asia. Some of the SE Asian rulers were particularly good at imitating, and even improving at times (Lieberman, Strange Parallels Vol 2.), European guns and military tactics to deter their rivals as well as successfully fighting off the Europeans for a time.

The problem comes with the overpowered strength of the European governmental institutions and government economy, which I would imagine, was almost like alien spaceships with lasers coming to attack Earth for non-Europeans.
It lasers maybe, but certainly spaceships. One of the things about the first period of European colonialism in South and South-East Asia (up until about 1850), was the Europeans did not have a significant technological advantage in land combat, since both sides were using the same basic gunpowder package. But no Asian nation came close to matching European ships, which gave them unrivalled strategic mobility. For example, the British won the First Anglo-Burmese War by launching a naval invasion of Yangon while the main Burmese army was in Bengal.

I suspect the reason that Siam retained its independence was that its territory (apart from the Bangkok region itself) was largely inaccessible from the sea, and that the Thais realised early on that they were in a tributary situation and concentrated on being a good little tribute-state rather than launching hopeless wars.
 
Getting back on topic, I've always wondered why civilisation (using the primary-school definition of urbanism, literacy, large-scale political organisation, large-scale construction, division of labour etc) took So. Damn. Long. to spread into Central Europe. You have civilisation spreading all over the Middle East (not just Mesopotamia and Egypt but the Levant, Syria, Anatolia and up into Iran as well) and into Greece by the Middle Bronze Age at latest - and then it just stops. And then the Bronze Age Collapse comes, the Mycenaean palaces burn and we get 400 years of Greek Dark Ages. And then the Greeks get it together and start spotting colonies all round the Aegean and the Black Sea - and then on through the Mediterranean where they meet up with the Phoenicians and local developments like the Etruscans and the Iberian peoples. And then they stop, and civilisation remains confined to the Mediterranean basin for another 600 or 700 years, until the Caesars push the Roman frontier to the Rhine-Danube. Then Rome stops and central Europe remains "barbarian" territory. "When the Dark Ages arrived, they found no lights to extinguish for none had ever shone there."

Urbanism in Central Europe really only dates from the mid-Middle Ages - it's weird to think that Cologne is a thousand years older than Berlin or Munich or that there's about as much time between the founding of Vienna and that of Prague as between Prague and New York. And all that time the North European Plain - flat, fertile and one of the few temperate plains in all Eurasia not to have a steppe-nomad problem - was just sitting there. Why?
 
Getting back on topic, I've always wondered why civilisation (using the primary-school definition of urbanism, literacy, large-scale political organisation, large-scale construction, division of labour etc) took So. Damn. Long. to spread into Central Europe. You have civilisation spreading all over the Middle East (not just Mesopotamia and Egypt but the Levant, Syria, Anatolia and up into Iran as well) and into Greece by the Middle Bronze Age at latest - and then it just stops. And then the Bronze Age Collapse comes, the Mycenaean palaces burn and we get 400 years of Greek Dark Ages. And then the Greeks get it together and start spotting colonies all round the Aegean and the Black Sea - and then on through the Mediterranean where they meet up with the Phoenicians and local developments like the Etruscans and the Iberian peoples. And then they stop, and civilisation remains confined to the Mediterranean basin for another 600 or 700 years, until the Caesars push the Roman frontier to the Rhine-Danube. Then Rome stops and central Europe remains "barbarian" territory. "When the Dark Ages arrived, they found no lights to extinguish for none had ever shone there."

Urbanism in Central Europe really only dates from the mid-Middle Ages - it's weird to think that Cologne is a thousand years older than Berlin or Munich or that there's about as much time between the founding of Vienna and that of Prague as between Prague and New York. And all that time the North European Plain - flat, fertile and one of the few temperate plains in all Eurasia not to have a steppe-nomad problem - was just sitting there. Why?
There were urban centers in Gaul, England, southern Germany and Pannonia by around 200 BCE and you early urban centers around 700 BCE in these regions far from Greek settlements as well.
In that sense it wasnt that slower than Italy or Iberia.
 
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