WI Confederacy and Entente win WW1?

octoberman

Banned
RN were consider the Largest and more Powerful Navy in the World until WWII and USN is challenge to the British Navy yeah but it wouldn't be as stomp.

Remember the British fought KM in OTL who will highly be similar to the USN and still beat the Huns Navy (It was tough battle between them in the Sea) so likely after the British done with the German, they will deal with the USN afterward.

I think RN would won against the USN but it will definitely had Very bruised noise and black eye in the Atlantic front even then US could definitely had many navy to throw at the British Navy. I say it will be Extreme tough fight between these two Powerful Navy
You are confusing TLs this is not OTL this is TL-191 and even in OTL USA was outbuilding RN in 1920s because of which UK negotiated the RN. USN was already second largest when civil war and it won't be downsize but expanded. In TL-191 USN will outnumber entire entante navy not just RN. Germany dig in for defense to wait for AEF and Entante invades them and suffer a mega Tannenburg
 
You are confusing TLs this is not OTL this is TL-191 and even in OTL USA was outbuilding RN in 1920s because of which UK negotiated the RN. USN was already second largest when civil war and it won't be downsize but expanded. In TL-191 USN will outnumber entire entante navy not just RN. Germany dig in for defense to wait for AEF and Entante invades them and suffer a mega Tannenburg
Why, exactly, should we expect TL-191's navy to outnumber the entire Entente navy? Certainly not from its performance or portrayal in the novels, where even with the KM's help it's unable to achieve anything like a decisive victory over the RN in the Atlantic.

All evidence from the novels is that the RN & Japanese fleet in the Pacific are able to hold their own against the US notwithstanding the surprise attack on the Sandwich Islands/Hawaii the Americans launch at the beginning of the war (the Japanese actually later manage a draw against the USN without any allies at all between the wars), while the perspective of the joint US/Brazilian/Chilean fleet in the Atlantic when they encounter the RN right after the armistice comes into effect is profound relief at avoiding a major fleet battle with it.

You can definitely make the argument that OTL's USA could have outbuilt the RN under TL-191 circumstances, but TL-191's America doesn't do so. The only place where the USN is demonstrably more powerful than the RN in the Great War is on the Great Lakes, where their fleet turns out to be a wasted investment.
 

octoberman

Banned
Why, exactly, should we expect TL-191's navy to outnumber the entire Entente navy? Certainly not from its performance or portrayal in the novels, where even with the KM's help it's unable to achieve anything like a decisive victory over the RN in the Atlantic.

All evidence from the novels is that the RN & Japanese fleet in the Pacific are able to hold their own against the US notwithstanding the surprise attack on the Sandwich Islands/Hawaii the Americans launch at the beginning of the war (the Japanese actually later manage a draw against the USN without any allies at all between the wars), while the perspective of the joint US/Brazilian/Chilean fleet in the Atlantic when they encounter the RN right after the armistice comes into effect is profound relief at avoiding a major fleet battle with it.

You can definitely make the argument that OTL's USA could have outbuilt the RN under TL-191 circumstances, but TL-191's America doesn't do so. The only place where the USN is demonstrably more powerful than the RN in the Great War is on the Great Lakes, where their fleet turns out to be a wasted investment.
Because American revanchism which didn't exist in OTL. In T-191 USA would be as militiristic as European Great powers
 
Probably FDR, with the difference is that instead of being the inspiration for fascism, progressivism would go all the way towards fascism. Blacks, confederates, jews as the groups targetted by this Progressive regime.
 
Because American revanchism which didn't exist in OTL. In T-191 USA would be as militiristic as European Great powers
Sure, but again, the fact remains that the USN in TL-191 isn't able to outweigh and defeat the RN and its allies, even with the help of the KM. Even when the Confederacy and France throw in the towel so they're up against just the RN in the Atlantic, they still don't win a decisive victory against them at sea.

There are a couple of ways you could justify that. With far less British (and to a lesser extent French) investment in US industry after the Civil War and especially the Second Mexican War, the US quite simply is not going to be as wealthy as it was in OTL, even accounting for the loss of the South. In OTL the US for all its vast industrial expansion was still a debtor nation in 1914 - a lot of its economic prosperity and growth came through foreign funding that will probably be much more limited in TL-191. We could also assume that the US poured the bulk of that revanchist funding you mention into the army, which is shown to be vastly larger and more capable in 1914 than the US army in OTL. Given the primary target of US revanchism is the Confederacy, that would make sense. And then there's also the money and resources the US is shown to have poured into Great Lakes battleships that turn out to be almost useless because of how heavily the Canadians mine the lakes. A few more botched projects and unfulfilling investments like that could also help explain why the USN in the books doesn't end up outweighing its opposition.

Whatever your personal preferences for explanations, though, the books make it quite clear that the USN isn't strong enough to stop an Entente victory in TL-191's Great War. What makes that victory hard to justify is the requirement for the Entente, with less manpower available than OTL, to defeat that Germans on the ground in Europe; and the requirement for the Canadians and Confederates to hold out against the US's army long enough for the American public to vote in a congress that will seek an armistice.
 
Probably FDR, with the difference is that instead of being the inspiration for fascism, progressivism would go all the way towards fascism. Blacks, confederates, jews as the groups targetted by this Progressive regime.
Why would FDR who is disabled man and was against Fascism in OTL would be Fascist leader? Also while Progressives were certainly going to be more nationalistic approach they are not going to be alone with Rememberacist and newly formed Fascist moment going to had the same things
 
POD was in 1860s. Him avoiding getting polio in the 1920s isn't a reach.

Also, who says the *progressives aren't going to be the Remembrance types? They could justify it as a more ah progressive society being besieged by reactionary forces. It's VERY easy to imagine that line of logic then taking it to extend it to death camps for mormons/confederates/blacks/jews.
 
We talk about the US fall into Fascism and the Interwar period after WW1 but now we didn't talked about what happened to other countries afterwards?

What happened to Canada, what happened to Europe, what happened to the CSA after the war?
 
POD was in 1860s. Him avoiding getting polio in the 1920s isn't a reach.
In SVTL, FDR was Socialist politician who even want accept Aber Dowling idea to make Utah absorbed to the Union again. He was very much against the CSA but that only increased with Jake "Actionist" Featherston

He still have polio that make it more likely that he be against the Fascist movement in America and plus He's Socialist so that will also be a part of it.
Also, who says the *progressives aren't going to be the Remembrance types? They could justify it as a more ah progressive society being besieged by reactionary forces.
I could honestly see the Progressives and Rememberacist work together under the Fascist movement in the Postwar US.

But I wonder what will the fascist party even be called and how will be their Leader in Defeated America?
It's VERY easy to imagine that line of logic then taking it to extend it to death camps for Mormons/Confederates/Blacks/Jews.
I could definitely see Mormons, Jews and even Jehovah witness will definitely be in Death Camps of the Fascist USA but why the Black and Confederate thought?

The US doesn't have a large black population as in OTL because the Great Migration didn't happen and most of the blacks are in the Confederacy as they weren't even allowed to migrate there as even not US allowed it.

Confederates in Death Camps? Why would the Rebs be targeted for Exterminated by the Fascist USA. Even with the hatred throughout the years they still consider "Rebs"to be American but only treacherous traitors who "Need" to exorb from the Union.

Why the American Fash will want to Exterminate the Confederates people?
 

octoberman

Banned
Doesn't work
With far less British (and to a lesser extent French) investment in US industry after the Civil War and especially the Second Mexican War, the US quite simply is not going to be as wealthy as it was in OTL, even accounting for the loss of the South. In OTL the US for all its vast industrial expansion was still a debtor nation in 1914 - a lot of its economic prosperity and growth came through foreign funding that will probably be much more limited in TL-191.
Foreign investment is replaced by domestic investment through American Central Bank established due to lack of southern opposition
We could also assume that the US poured the bulk of that revanchist funding you mention into the army, which is shown to be vastly larger and more capable in 1914 than the US army in OTL. Given the primary target of US revanchism is the Confederacy, that would make sense.
Spending on Army proportional to UK would be more than for the Archaic CSA once 20th century sets in
. And then there's also the money and resources the US is shown to have poured into Great Lakes battleships that turn out to be almost useless because of how heavily the Canadians mine the lakes
Great Lakes were demilitarized before the Civil war USA can't break a treaty with UK without starting a war making them a non starting

This Scenario is ASB
 
Doesn't work

Foreign investment is replaced by domestic investment through American Central Bank established due to lack of southern opposition
Long-term foreign investment in the US in 1914 represented 20% of the country's total GDP. By the 1880s there was an entire section of the London Stock Exchange dedicated to American railroad securities - about 8.4 billion worth by the start of WW1, or a bit over 40% of the entire capital invested in those railways. Some major railroads had as much as 75% foreign ownership in the form of portfolio investments. An American Central Bank might make it easier to get American investments to American companies, but the vast scale of British investment can't simply be "replaced" by establishing a single financial institution.

Great Lakes were demilitarized before the Civil war USA can't break a treaty with UK without starting a war making them a non starting

This Scenario is ASB
No, this scenario is based off a pubished series, in which many of the things you're complaining about like the US and Canada/UK militarizing the lakes, the USN failing to defeat the entire Entente navy single-handed, or the Confederacy abolishing slavery in the 1880s and having industry of its own by 1914, happen. If you've got a problem with TL-191, that's fine, many people do (especially with the later books), but there's no point in complaining about scenarios based off it when your complaint comes down to rejecting everything from the books you disagree with out of hand.
 

bguy

Donor
We talk about the US fall into Fascism and the Interwar period after WW1 but now we didn't talked about what happened to other countries afterwards?

What happened to Canada, what happened to Europe, what happened to the CSA after the war?

We don't know exactly what the Confederate war aims were in the Great War, but I imagine their gains were pretty slight. The US isn't going to cede territory or pay reparations to them, so probably the best the Confederates can hope for is Haiti (which they occupied during the war) and maybe the US agreeing not to interfere with any Confederate canal project in Nicaraqua. This will likely lead to a sense of "mutilated victory" in the Confederate States and that sense of dissatisfaction with the war results along with the inevitable high inflation the Confederates will be suffering even in victory will probably still lead to the rise of extremist movements in the Confederate States.

The Confederates will also likely wage a very brutal (and possibly outright genocidal) war to secure their conquest of Haiti. I would expect the Confederate government to also use Haiti as a dumping ground for its more radicalized soldiers (on the theory that it is better to have them in the Caribbean than marching on Richmond) which will make the Haitian War even nastier. (There's a good chance Jake Featherston ends up as one of the Confederate soldiers sent off to fight in Haiti.)

In Europe I expect the British and Russians to quickly fall out. British foreign policy at this time is to keep the strongest continental power in check and with Germany defeated the strongest continental power is now Russia. The Tsar will certainly be feeling his oats after winning the Great War and will probably start pressuring the Turks, Persians, and Japanese for concessions to Russia (which will make the British even more worried about the Russians.) I would expect the British to grow closer to Japan and the Ottomans (to keep Russia in check) and the British might also try to cozy up to Italy (who will doubtlessly be in conflict with Russia's ally Serbia over their dueling interests in the Balkans.)

Nor sure who France sides with in this Anglo-Russian Cold War. The French have much more in common with the British (both being democracies), but France's biggest worry is possible German revanchism and Russia (who is occupying East Prussia) has more of an interest in holding down Germany than Britain (who probably would like to attempt a rapprochement with Germany as another check on Russia.) France will also likely be nervous about Britain making friendly moves towards Italy (who does have claims on some French territory.)

As for Canada that depends on what happens to the United States. If the Socialists come to dominate US politics and take the US in a pacifistic direction then tensions on the US-Canadian border will drop dramatically. Debs or a successor Socialist president will negotiate a treaty with the Canadians that demilitarizes the Great Lakes and Canada will soon be able to end conscription and greatly reduce its military spending.

Conversely, if a fascist government comes to power in the US then Canada is in a lot of trouble. It will have to remain hyper-militarized as it knows it will be a target for the Actionist US in any future war.
 
The Confederates will also likely wage a very brutal (and possibly outright genocidal) war to secure their conquest of Haiti. I would expect the Confederate government to also use Haiti as a dumping ground for its more radicalized soldiers (on the theory that it is better to have them in the Caribbean than marching on Richmond) which will make the Haitian War even nastier.
The Confederacy could honestly have their own version of Philippines War in Haiti, think about it bguy there actually have shock only similar if you think about it.

1: Both Conflicts started when they take over another country in previous War

2: The Both Occupy forced consider the natives of the occupied Countries as "Interior Race"

3: Treating the locals Population like crap by Extreme Racism from the Both occupying Force during the Conflict

4: Similar of the Numerous Concentration Camps to control the civilian population during the War

5: Don't forget the numerous people that had History of rebelling against Occupier that will make the War much Bloodier and Harder

6: Also surprisingly Unpopular war that will affect the public view on the effectiveness on Imperialism by their Government

I wonder what will the Africans Confederates were think of this war and how they were fighting it especially after WW1
(There's a good chance Jake Featherston ends up as one of the Confederate soldiers sent off to fight in Haiti.)
I honestly don't think that little Jake wouldn't be as radical as he is in OSV bguy. Jake turned into Southern Hitler because of his country gone to shit after WW1 ended in failure and the treaty by the US crippled the CSA economy into becomed Weimar America.

Jake will be just the average Confederate citizen, personal who hates blacks but not want them to be exterminate and just want likely just move on to Ordinary life.
 
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bguy

Donor
The Confederacy could honestly have their own version of Philippines War in Haiti, think about it bguy there actually have shock only similar if you think about it.

I was thinking more of it being akin to the Italian conquest of Ethiopia (since I'm sure the Confederates will use chemical weapons against the Haitians), but the Filipino-American War is another good example.

I honestly don't think that little Jake wouldn't be as radical as he is in OSV bguy. Jake turned into Southern Hitler because of his country gone to shit after WW1 ended in failure and the treaty by the US crippled the CSA economy into becomed Weimar America.

Jake will be just the average Confederate citizen, personal who hates blacks but not want them to be exterminate and just want likely just move on to Ordinary life.

Jake may not be as radicalized as he was in the canon storyline, but he's still likely to end up very disgruntled. Just consider he will probably still end up reporting Pompey to Confederate Intelligence (Jake disliked Pompey right from the start of the books and will seize any chance he gets to cause trouble for Pompey), Jeb Stuart III will still use his family connections to squash any investigation into Pompey (since Stuart does like Pompey), and Pompey will still turn out to be involved in the Red underground (given how senior Pompey was in their leadership his role obviously predates the start of the books). Thus Jeb Stuart III will likely still end up disgraced (and probably seek redemption through a heroic death), which means Jeb Stuart II will still blame Featherston for the disgrace/death of his son and use his authority to kill any chance Featherston has of ever getting a promotion (which will leave Featherston bitter and with a major grudge against both the Confederate establishment and the black population.) A Featherston who hates the Confederate establishment will likely be receptive to the "mutilated victory" message and thus could still easily be drawn into extremist politics.

And even if Featherston's own politics aren't radicalized, he will still likely get sent to Haiti just because General Stuart has a major grudge against him and will want to give him as undesirable a posting as possible.
 
Jake may not be as radicalized as he was in the canon storyline, but he's still likely to end up very disgruntled. Just consider he will probably still end up reporting Pompey to Confederate Intelligence (Jake disliked Pompey right from the start of the books and will seize any chance he gets to cause trouble for Pompey), Jeb Stuart III will still use his family connections to squash any investigation into Pompey (since Stuart does like Pompey), and Pompey will still turn out to be involved in the Red underground (given how senior Pompey was in their leadership his role obviously predates the start of the books). Thus Jeb Stuart III will likely still end up disgraced (and probably seek redemption through a heroic death), which means Jeb Stuart II will still blame Featherston for the disgrace/death of his son and use his authority to kill any chance Featherston has of ever getting a promotion (which will leave Featherston bitter and with a major grudge against both the Confederate establishment and the black population.) A Featherston who hates the Confederate establishment will likely be receptive to the "mutilated victory" message and thus could still easily be drawn into extremist politics.

And even if Featherston's own politics aren't radicalized, he will still likely get sent to Haiti just because General Stuart has a major grudge against him and will want to give him as undesirable a posting as possible.
How about the other CSA Characters in TL where Entente win WW1 ended afterwards like Reggie, Potter, Colleton etc?
 

bguy

Donor
How about the other CSA Characters in TL where Entente win WW1 ended afterwards like Reggie, Potter, Colleton etc?

For Reggie Bartlett, since the Confederates never started recruiting black soldiers in this timeline, Reggie never had his talks with Rehoboam that led to his political awakening. Thus it's likely Reggie never becomes political in this timeline. As the non-political Reggie seemed rather Hail Fellow Well Met, I see him eventually running a popular speakeasy in Richmond after Virginia enacts Prohibition (with him having to make regular pay-offs to corrupt local beat cop Ferdinand Koenig.)

For Clarence Potter, I doubt he'll want to stay in the Confederate Army since he's also in General Stuart's bad books over the whole Pompey Affair. I imagine though that post-war the Confederates will want to set up a FBI equivalent agency to deal with internal threats (the Red Rebellion will have spooked the Confederate government and between the surviving black rebel groups and whatever actionist para-military groups form after the war, there are still a lot of internal threats to the Confederate States, so they will need some sort of national police agency to deal with those threats.) Potter will likely be recruited as an investigator for this agency (which I'm going to call Special Branch since the Confederates tend to ape the British) and will likely eventually be the head of the agency.

For Anne Colleton, given her energy, ruthlessness, and futurism, I see her becoming one of the early leaders of the Confederate film industry. (I think the the movie industry would appeal to Colleton both for its glamor and because its a non-traditional industry and thus there would be more opportunities for her there than there would be in politics or more established industries.) Given the pageantry she was able to bring to Featherston's political rallies in the canon timeline, I imagine Colleton Studios (probably based in south Florida) becomes highly successful, with it dominating the Confederate film market and probably managing to make inroads even in the US and European markets.
 

octoberman

Banned
Long-term foreign investment in the US in 1914 represented 20% of the country's total GDP.
you are viewing the wrong way by comparing wealth to yearly income and Long-term foreign investment in the US even now represents 20% of the country's total GDP but it is only 5% of total wealth.
An American Central Bank might make it easier to get American investments to American companies, but the vast scale of British investment can't simply be "replaced" by establishing a single financial institution.
It can also help America develop a investment banking similar to UK.
 
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bguy

Donor
How about the Black Population of the CSA and how they will affected by Victory of WW1.

Unfortunately, their prospects look pretty bleak. With the Confederates furious about the Red Rebellion and having "won" the Great War without having to make any concessions to their black population, I would expect the Confederates to crack down hard post-war.
 
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