Didn't the PLC join the Great Northern War because King Augustus wanted to make the title hereditary?
Union of The Three Crowns: The History of The Nordic Empire
- Thread starter Gabingston
- Start date
Augustus II definitely wanted the PLC to become an absolute monarchy. He failed though.
It's more that the Kalmar Union may help the PLC first so it could become a hereditary monarchy.
It's that ittl the Kalmar Union exists so the Vasa dynasty wouldn't be able to become monarchs of the PLC.
If the Polish kings are able to make the crown hereditary, the nobility’s power will automatic become curbed, simply because if the kings don’t need to bribe the nobility every succession, they will slowly accumulate land, wealth and power, and they will be able to increase power through giving titles and privileges as bribes, and play the different actors out against each other.
Ofc but it didn't happen in otl and the nobles were able to take back power.
An update on the Polish dynasty vote:
- Native Polish Dynasty: 7 Votes
- Oldenburgs: 5 Votes
- Habsburgs: 2 Votes
- Valois: 1 Vote
- Other: 1 Vote
Tbf I wanted it to be the Oldenburgs because they basically have to deal with something similar with the PLC and managing to centralise power.
How should the progression of dynasties go in the PLC? Historically, Poland elected Henry of Valois as the king, but he returned to France after his brother Charles IX's death. After that, the PLC was ruled by Anna Jagiellon and Stephen Bathory, who were co-monarchs. However, they died without an heir, and after that the throne passed to Sigismund Vasa. However, ITTL, the Vasas will never ascend to the Polish-Lithuanian throne, as they're just another Swedish noble family. ITTL, Poland will wind up ruled by a native dynasty, which the Oldenburgs will have married off one of their noblewomen into.
The question I have is when that should occur. Henry Valois is not going to wind up the long-term king of the PLC, that's already been determined by the poll. What is yet to be determined, though, is whether it goes as IOTL (Henry is elected, reigns for a bit and then returns to France after his brother dies at a young age) or a different way, with Henry not being elected king at all. It's very possible that something like the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, which contributed to the decline of Charles IX's condition, would be butterflied ITTL. I haven't touched on France at all thus far ITTL, so an update for that country is probably due to happen soon.
In addition, I don’t know what Polish noble families would be suitable candidates for the throne. This goes back to my lack of knowledge of European dynastic politics, which has been and will continue to be a roadblock to constructing a realistic timeline with a POD in the early modern period. IOTL there were several native Polish dynasties that ascended to the PLC’s throne, but the first of those wouldn’t occur until the 1640s, over half a century after the time period I’m looking at. Thus, I’m not sure if they’d work with the circumstances of this situation. Those of you who know more about the royal genealogy of this period could suggest some suitable candidates. Alternatively, history could go as it did IOTL up until the time the Vasas got the Polish-Lithuanian throne IOTL. This post is getting a bit long, and I’ve got to resume work on both this and EC/FC, so I’m gonna leave it to you guys now.
The question I have is when that should occur. Henry Valois is not going to wind up the long-term king of the PLC, that's already been determined by the poll. What is yet to be determined, though, is whether it goes as IOTL (Henry is elected, reigns for a bit and then returns to France after his brother dies at a young age) or a different way, with Henry not being elected king at all. It's very possible that something like the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, which contributed to the decline of Charles IX's condition, would be butterflied ITTL. I haven't touched on France at all thus far ITTL, so an update for that country is probably due to happen soon.
In addition, I don’t know what Polish noble families would be suitable candidates for the throne. This goes back to my lack of knowledge of European dynastic politics, which has been and will continue to be a roadblock to constructing a realistic timeline with a POD in the early modern period. IOTL there were several native Polish dynasties that ascended to the PLC’s throne, but the first of those wouldn’t occur until the 1640s, over half a century after the time period I’m looking at. Thus, I’m not sure if they’d work with the circumstances of this situation. Those of you who know more about the royal genealogy of this period could suggest some suitable candidates. Alternatively, history could go as it did IOTL up until the time the Vasas got the Polish-Lithuanian throne IOTL. This post is getting a bit long, and I’ve got to resume work on both this and EC/FC, so I’m gonna leave it to you guys now.
That's why I think having a branch of the Oldenburgs take over is the best for you ittl.
I think it's a perfectly logical option, but I'm hesitant to do it for two reasons. First, it'd be going against the results of the poll, where the plurality wanted a native Polish dynasty, albeit only by a single vote, and secondly because it'd be making this TL more of a wank than I want it to be. While this TL is definitely going to be charitable to the Kalmar Union, I want it to be within a reasonable boundary, I'm not just going to have a Scandinavian-Polish alliance beat down the Muscovites/Russians, as much as my Scandinavian/Polish heritage may like that.
You can have the Scandinavian-polish alliance only work once. Like have two brothers/Kalmar + Poland-Lithuania personal union crush the Russians then have them quarrel over the Baltic coast.
Sharing a dynasty isn’t a guaranteed eternal alliance, look at how well the Swedish and Polish Vasas got along for example.
So, with all things considered, should I just say screw it and have the Oldenburgs take the Polish-Lithuanian throne?
Yes. The first generation or two of the dynastic union can have their glorious annihilation of Russia. And then when the bonds of kinship fade into distant irrelevance and their shared enemy is gone, watch them turn upon each other for the spoils of Russia and Siberia in a glorious squabble! See them plot against each other to claim the throne of each other’s country!
Maybe have them join back together in ittl WWI if this tl gets that far but yeah have them try murder each other most of the time.
Last edited:
I'm not gonna have this be a complete and total Russia screw. I don't see any reason for them to not colonize Siberia and beat back the Tatars and other steppe nomads in the south, but they're probably going to be locked out of the Baltic for a while. As for Nordic-PLC relations, I think your description is plausible. They're certainly not going to be BFFs, even with a shared ruling house.
I certainly hope this TL makes it to the 20th Century, but it did take EC/FC several years to get there, and this starts over a century further back, so we're probably going to have to wait a while for the TL to get that far.
It's definitely fine TLs spanning hundreds of years take time to get there.
Tbf I want this to be a total Russia screw just because of how rare it is. Even having the Russians be stuck in Siberia and Central Asia would make things very very interesting.
Legit. Russia screws are rare. Screw Russia. It's not implausible either, the PLC marched into Moscow.
What could happen is the PLC and Sweden divvying up European Russia and the Russian people who refuse their rule flee into Siberia and Central Asia and form Russia there. It would put the centre of Russia beyond the Urals for once and make the north of Eurasia much more interesting with multiple countries competing over it rather than just one Russia.
Edit: there could be other countries in that space too. I doubt the Caucasus will be ruled by PLC so you have an independent Circassia, Chechnya, Dagestan. Who knows what else in that space. Other ethnicities being vassals or incorporated into Poland and Kalmar. I look forward to Poland upgrading Ukrainian Hetmanate into an equal partner in the PLC, there is a lot a lot of potential to have European Russia die.
Especially because the loss of European Russia will as I said earlier, force the Russian people to focus heavily on Siberia and Central Asia, making those regions more developed and more in the forefront of the world’s politics.
Last edited: