Red Spies in the White House: An Alternate Cold War

What about Rodolfo Graziani? If the fucker is afraid of getting hanged for his actions in WW2, I can see him using his connections to at least try a violent insurrection against the Italian republic
Difficult but possible but there are two problem:
1 - in OTL he was imprisoned at Procida months before the elections and i don't see how it will be different
2 - Doubt that the White administration will even try to resist the Ethiopian request to give him to them....another move that will make the USA not very popular
 
It will be interesting to see the direction Europe goes.

I'v been thinking and I suspect if the USA does turn into a authoritarian/fascist eventually it will be through somewhat ironically the US forces occupying nations under the current president.

Besides sympathy for being a communist tool and victim ultimately it has led counting for Italy, their part of Germany, Japan ect them enforcing White's laws and in Germany's case forced starvation onto countless people, which now is going to get increasingly bloody given the Nazi's are trying to start a insurgency.

Basically the USA at the time was quite racist nation with a lot of issues and will face a political crisis and hysteria like no other very few other forces in it's society both have and experience to dominate and force it's the changes to law, which support of the population likely.

Just being careerist/apolitical or a scumbag in case of Germany has after all given the US forces there a population they can treat as bad as they wish with no punishment and even get rewarded but will be punished if they speak out/treat Germans well.

Kind of a parallel I mean how Japanese expansion into China served as a breeding ground for the army's authoritarianism so will under White the US army could go a similar process.
 
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I'v been thinking and I suspect if the USA does turn into a authoritarian/fascist eventually it will be through somewhat ironically the US forces occupying nations under the current president.
More like democratically elected politicians employing fascist policies (like OTL sex and skin colour discrimination). OTL CPUSA was banned - ATL the government could use their powers to arrest their members and those suspected with association with communists (think https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/tliapot.393158/ but harder). With the New Deal discredited, the power of corporations would be expanded at the cost of the people, like in the 1980s, but with more anti-communism, racism and possibly antisemitism. Either Robert Taft reigns supreme, promoting the civil rights movement, anti-lynchings, public housing for the poor and equal education clause or the more conservative politicians would try to entrench OTL discrimination. And in the event of communist Western Europe, the US would have to create more numerous standing armies, wasting more money and limiting their pool of workers to fill the Army. OTL the FDR government planned to conscript women to the Nurse Corps - maybe ATL could be implemented due to the need for more soldiers on the battlefields of Asia and Latin America?

Basically the USA at the time was quite racist nation with a lot of issues and will face a political crisis and hysteria like no other very few other forces in it's society both have and experience to dominate and force it's the changes to law, which support of the population likely.

When Western Europe fall to communism, it will be the non-Soviet strand of communism, independent from the Moscow political line. With the social liberalism of France (and maybe Italy?), the US would have to liberalize itself - the Civil Rights Movement was embraced by the government due to the communist propaganda accusing the US of discrimination and Nazi-like laws. (well, the OTL Nuremberg Code was modelled after the Southern laws).

Kind of a parallel I mean how Japanese expansion into China served as a breeding ground for the army's authoritarianism so will under White the US army could go a similar process.

Obviously, the civilian control of the armed forces is too strong in the US. Any attack by the civilian paramilitaries would be crushed and their leaders prosecuted because the Army is apolitical. The US is not like Weimar Germany - if a charismatic leader tried to perform a coup by attacking the Capitol to prevent counting electoral votes (like did happen in 1861), he/she would be doomed and their supporters wrecked by law enforcement.
 
When Western Europe fall to communism, it will be the non-Soviet strand of communism, independent from the Moscow political line. With the social liberalism of France (and maybe Italy?), the US would have to liberalize itself - the Civil Rights Movement was embraced by the government due to the communist propaganda accusing the US of discrimination and Nazi-like laws. (well, the OTL Nuremberg Code was modelled after the Southern laws).
Togliatti and the PCI if left governing alone will be hardly social libertist, the man was a total Stalin fanboy, loyally followed Moscow line, was ready to give up Trieste to Tito and happy to let italian prisoner in Russia before the election to not ruin his electoral chance frankly the life duration of even the socialist in a communist Italy will be measured in months (and i'm optimist).
 
Togliatti and the PCI if left governing alone will be hardly social libertist, the man was a total Stalin fanboy, loyally followed Moscow line, was ready to give up Trieste to Tito and happy to let italian prisoner in Russia before the election to not ruin his electoral chance frankly the life duration of even the socialist in a communist Italy will be measured in months (and i'm optimist).
Still, Italy would be a democracy. With powers of the government are limited by courts and other political parties. When compared with the Stalinist terror, Western European communists would be liberal. In the case of France, maybe even more liberal than OTL as women were allowed to open bank accounts in 1965. Divorce would be available in Italy since 1940s, not 1970. 1992? When jeans meant consent for sex in Italy, even if it was rape? Even Eastern Bloc countries were more liberal than that. PCI or PCF would be more socially liberal than DC or Gaullists in 1940s/1950s.
 
If Italy gets a communist government, and they are opposed by parts of the military and right-wing paramilitaries, then it‘s not out of the question that the government invites in Soviet troops to support them. In that case Italy will become another Stalinist country.

France is another matter however, since they don’t share a border with any soviet-occupied or pro-soviet country – unless Italy becomes communist, of course.
 
Togliatti and the PCI if left governing alone will be hardly social libertist, the man was a total Stalin fanboy, loyally followed Moscow line, was ready to give up Trieste to Tito and happy to let italian prisoner in Russia before the election to not ruin his electoral chance frankly the life duration of even the socialist in a communist Italy will be measured in months (and i'm optimist).
Again Togliatti could be replaced or simply be killed off, considering the number of rivals he had inside the PCI during his life.
Luigi Longo is a good replacement, considering he was far moderate than his boss and favored collaboration with other leftist forces.

Also I wonder what P2 Masonic Lodge is doing in this TL. I seriusly doubt its members are happy about the situation. Considering OTL they may have backed two failed coups in Italy, i think they may be the ones kickstarting a Second Italian Civil War ITTL
If Italy gets a communist government, and they are opposed by parts of the military and right-wing paramilitaries, then it‘s not out of the question that the government invites in Soviet troops to support them. In that case Italy will become another Stalinist country.
I don't see this happening. Besides the fact geography makes it difficoult (unless Jugoslavia is invaded by Moscow or forced to ally with the USSR), any Italian leader deciding to invite foreign troops in the peninsula would't last long.

IRL a common talking point of the PCI was the presence of NATO troops in our country being a threath to our securiry (no doubt ITTL the feeling against American troops is even stronger) and that Togliatti & Co, were the only ones that could assure our indipendence.

The PCI would shoot itself in the foot if its leadership allowed other foreign troops to enter Italy.

On the other hand, i can see Italy entering an earlier and bloodier version of the Years of Lead, with France, Spain and Moscow backing various groups. Indeed it would be interesting if an eventual Italian Communist government simply decided to cover up attacks from leftist groups blaiming them on their far-rigt rivals (to be clear there is the suspicion that in OTL Rome did the opposite*)

Also I like the idea of Giorgio Napolitano remaining a communist and leading some kind of rebellion

*Of course the Red Brigades commited terrorist attacks and killed innocent people too. The last thing i need is people thinking i am a tankie or some other dumb prick.
 
I don't see this happening. Besides the fact geography makes it difficoult (unless Jugoslavia is invaded by Moscow or forced to ally with the USSR), any Italian leader deciding to invite foreign troops in the peninsula would't last long.

IRL a common talking point of the PCI was the presence of NATO troops in our country being a threath to our securiry (no doubt ITTL the feeling against American troops is even stronger) and that Togliatti & Co, were the only ones that could assure our indipendence.

The PCI would shoot itself in the foot if its leadership allowed other foreign troops to enter Italy.
Unless this foreign troops unlike the American/NATO troops deal with anyone that don't agree with a lot of brutality, lead and other niceties; better be realistic if the soviet troops are 'invited' in Italy, they will quickly occupy the nation and make disappear a lot of potential opposition plus make clear that protest it's not really a smart thing to do...because while the american are foreign occupation troops, the soviets are brothers in communism here on request of the legitimate government to protect italian independence and anyone that disagree will have his lifespan greatly reduced,

But yes all depend if Tito is on the same side of Stalin, otherwise it will be difficult, unless the Soviet ask directely to the USA to vacate their base and also give them a ride to move troops and material in Italy

Edit: difficult to see the P2 as a political actor now, the entire country is devastated and the situation much in flux and complicated; that kind of 'association' are for more quiet time
 
I don't see this happening. Besides the fact geography makes it difficoult (unless Jugoslavia is invaded by Moscow or forced to ally with the USSR), any Italian leader deciding to invite foreign troops in the peninsula would't last long.

Well, right now Yugoslavia is still a Soviet ally, since the split between Tito and Stalin hasn’t happened yet. And depending on how things go, Austria might be another country that borders Italy through which Soviet troops could enter. After all, the US has recognized the pro-Soviet government that the Soviets have installed in Vienna, which means it’s possible that Austria is another country that joins the Soviet block.

But regardless, if Italy goes red, then I think Czechoslovakia could be the model to follow: a coalition government between communist and non-communist parties, followed by an eventual communist coup. Just like Czechoslovakia, there might be no need for Soviet troops in Italy… at least not at first.
 
For Turkey it's a I admit a frankly awful situation, the USSR already have a Kurdish satellite set up, Iran is gone but at the same time the chaos from this and the complete lack means they can and will have to take gambles and likely turn to a new direction for support.

The main players of the Arab world all have their concerns, The USSR appears to be taking creating a puppet Libya, with Iran gone it's both now less sixty miles away from Arabia if they wanted a naval invasion, Israel it seems will become another pro USSR nation.

Sure their is plenty of issues, like Syria claiming Hatay, the issue over water, bad blood over the game of Kurds but their is a bigger threat, it makes sense to end the disputes. After all in the case of Ira and Jordan their kingdoms will be overthrown if the USSR keeps expanding and Syria while weaker should be more concerned with their southern front if they can be reassured about their others plus while the Turkish army would hate it's better to maybe give Syria some breadcrumbs with some deal over Hatay for now till they can get a proper hand on the situation, better to break it later than have to worry about a potential front for a war with the USSR.

Worst case though might be if Turkey signs a deal and gives up territory, not because it's worse than being destroyed but it could destroy both the moral and faith of the army and people in the state.


The Turkish state after all is built on a narrative of nationalistic resistance and shared ethnicity, it defeated all the colonial power after WW1 that tried to occupy it, giving away territory, plus there is no guarantee the USSR won't say make the deal, then press the claims of proxies shortly after such as Bulgaria, Kurdistan and Greece if the communists win. Plus the Kurdish areas if the state looks weak and folds would lead more attempts at rebelling.
 
Cannot help but stan Harry Dexter White’s actions, even if he’s doing the bidding of one of the worst dictators of the 20th century, his actions are mostly having positife effects so far.

As far as Italy is concerned, I agree with most users on here that Umberto II would not attempt a coup, but maybe you could replace it Junio Valerio Borghese, along with the usual suspects, attempting a coup on behalf of him. There were already rumours that the CIA wanted to install the, aptly named, Black Prince to a high office in Italy. Though, in the long term it won’t change things too much, as Togliatti seems poised to win in 1948 (perhaps butterflies could cause the election to happen earlier idk).

Another interesting place where HDW could intervene is Belgium, where the Royal Question was in full swing, and American intervention there could have interesting consequences for both Belgium and the Congo.

Anyway really love the TL!
 
Cannot help but stan Harry Dexter White’s actions, even if he’s doing the bidding of one of the worst dictators of the 20th century, his actions are mostly having positife effects so far.

As far as Italy is concerned, I agree with most users on here that Umberto II would not attempt a coup, but maybe you could replace it Junio Valerio Borghese, along with the usual suspects, attempting a coup on behalf of him. There were already rumours that the CIA wanted to install the, aptly named, Black Prince to a high office in Italy. Though, in the long term it won’t change things too much, as Togliatti seems poised to win in 1948 (perhaps butterflies could cause the election to happen earlier idk).

Another interesting place where HDW could intervene is Belgium, where the Royal Question was in full swing, and American intervention there could have interesting consequences for both Belgium and the Congo.

Anyway really love the TL!
I can totally see where you're coming from. I have a bad feeling though that this will lead to all of the good White is doing to be repealed and also cause many to despise it far into the future.
 
I can totally see where you're coming from. I have a bad feeling though that this will lead to all of the good White is doing to be repealed and also cause many to despise it far into the future.
It will certainly strengthen the American far-right, but if White and his supporters can frame their actions in a good light, it could also cause him to have a lot of supporters over the years, and the American left to come out stronger out of the late 40s.

Either way, there’d be a lot of Twitter handles with his name on them.
 
Likewise, I am inclined to think that what will happen TTL will not be that White is seen in a positive light. He but as something similar to Quisling, a useful fool and traitor in the style of Benedict Arnold or worse.

This will be especially noticeable when the post-White regime starts screaming how much it hates Europe for "leaving us in the hands of White". (not that they care at all that Europe is not in a position to influence the United States, and the urge to believe that Europe will betray them at the drop of a hat is firmly ingrained in the American psyche - look at all those works of "U.S. Fallen and Occupied" fiction: all involve Europe cutting ties with America as a premise-). So post-Soviet Europe will probably focus its efforts on appeasing the openly fascist American colossus of TTL.

What a horror, all of Europe will become Eastern Europe.
 
Cannot help but stan Harry Dexter White’s actions, even if he’s doing the bidding of one of the worst dictators of the 20th century, his actions are mostly having positife effects so far.
he's put the Montague plan into effect, killing millions of Germans.

He has ensured that Fascism will never die (forget far-right/alt right groups of today I mean old school hitlerism in Germany itself. the man has retroactively validated half the conspiracy theories that got the man into the Chancellory in the first place). In the future surviving Germans will tell thier children this whisper in thier ears that he was right. Democracy, Liberalism, and Capitalism are dead in the hearts and minds of the Germans.

He's handed hundred of thousands, maybe millions of people, over to Stalin, a man only considered less bad than Hitler because of the method, not body count. And he's made sure Japan will never be the stanch partner we had OTL nor ever consider a path in line with America or peace.

Worse of all, he's shot his own ethnicity in the back at the whims of a made man and an antisemite! White is worse than a fool, a dictator, or a traitor. He something else, whose and misbegotten, graceless in all things, Caligula, Claudius, Commodus, and now White.
 
he's put the Montague plan into effect, killing millions of Germans.

He has ensured that Fascism will never die (forget far-right/alt right groups of today I mean old school hitlerism in Germany itself. the man has retroactively validated half the conspiracy theories that got the man into the Chancellory in the first place). In the future surviving Germans will tell thier children this whisper in thier ears that he was right. Democracy, Liberalism, and Capitalism are dead in the hearts and minds of the Germans.

He's handed hundred of thousands, maybe millions of people, over to Stalin, a man only considered less bad than Hitler because of the method, not body count. And he's made sure Japan will never be the stanch partner we had OTL nor ever consider a path in line with America or peace.

Worse of all, he's shot his own ethnicity in the back at the whims of a made man and an antisemite! White is worse than a fool, a dictator, or a traitor. He something else, whose and misbegotten, graceless in all things, Caligula, Claudius, Commodus, and now White.
He gave global capital the biggest hit since Lenin, he ensured that France and Italy would have a lot more socially liberal regimes, he aided in a more gradual, respectful, and less hastened decolonization, he weakened some of the most reactionary actors of OTL, plus East Europe will most likely not be as bad as OTL, and Spain may return to being a democracy a lot sooner than IOTL. Not to mention that he started desegregation earlier as well.

I’m not an American, so I don’t care that much about American-Japanese relations, but a Japan that is more left-wing is almost always a good thing in my book.

Also, him shooting his own people in the back is crazy to even argue. That is such a defeatist attitude, and only further legitimizes anti-semitic scare tactics. If White is showing one thing, it’s how much good a single Jew can do, and though he has made uncountable amounts of enemies, he will also cement his place into the history books as one of its unlikeliest heroes.
 
Not to rain over anyone's parade but one of this timeline's chapters had a rap battle made by neonazis with the implication that would be the mainstream culture of this world's United States
All of White's good actions were set up to fail and be replaced by something worse than what he fought against from the start by the fact he is a communist spy
But all of his worst actions(genocide on Germany, giving Asia to Mao, etc) will remain
 
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