Photo of a World Without World Wars

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Can we agree that this doesn't answer the question of how racism is defined or how it could be measured?

The anecdoctal argumentation provided in listing a series of US-centric events is hardly conclusion in any way to provide an argument that "only an world war can do this". Point in case, then the Great Migration was essentially driven by a labour shortage, which was accentuated by the world wars. But you could easily have other things drive up a labour shortage such as an economic boom, a government policy, changes in social attitudes or a pandemic for that matter. Where it gets silly is with the internment of Japanese-Americans, because on the face of it, the argument seems to be that the more a country will be putting minorities in camps, then the less racist that country will become. That is an obvious folly.

Then again, as seen by the reactions of Reconstruction and the Jim Crow years tends to flag that people are slow to make any major changes in terms of social change. Consider that until 1962, children were actually forced to recite Protestant Christian prayers before class, and this was in public schools. This was the case even in cases wherein the person in question was Jewish or Catholic. Social change only comes through people challenging the social order, which often primarily comes during the onset and aftermath of war....

Another example, going back to World War II, women were expected to simply to raise children and were never expected to join the work force, even during the Great Depression. But when World War II was declared in the United States, the "Rosie the Riveter" movement was established, to deal with the manpower shortage, wherein millions of women joined the work force for the first time, and even joined the military for the first time. This planted the seeds for the Women's Rights movement, from Bela Abzugh to Betty Friedan to Rachel Carson (author of Silent Spring, which launched the environmentalist movement), providing opportunities from WPA Art Commissions to the WAC (Women's Air Corps).

 

[Kaiserreich333]

The Polish Question (1944-1945)

Oath of King Karol I of Poland in 1945, his coronation ended the "Polish Question" placing the new nation under Germany's sphere of influence.​

The Polish Question can be defined as the set of problems that involved the independence of Poland between 1935 and 1945, as well as the question of which sphere of influence the new nation would be after the Polish War of Independence (1942-1944)
Although the Polish Question can be traced back to at least the end of the 18th century, when Poland was absorbed by different nations, especially Russia, as the 19th and 20th century passed, different movements tried to guarantee independence or autonomy without success, especially the Polish Uprising of 1848 and the January Uprising of 1863.
After the rise of Ivan Kalmykov to power in Russia in 1934, a great effort began in Russia for the Russification of several country regions, with the Russian effort to impose the Cyrillic alphabet and the growing number of foreigners in Poland was created in 1935 the Committee of Independence of Poland with the objective of guaranteeing the future Polish independence, the committee gained a great number of influence in Poland to the point that it was considered the Polish government De facto in 1939.
The actions of Kalmykov and his government led to the Polish War of Independence that started in December 1942, secretly supported by Germany, the insurgents managed to overthrow the Russian administration in Warsaw and start a general revolt in Poland and parts of Lithuania and Ruthenia, the Russian government underestimated the Polish forces, sending a modest peacekeeping army which was soon massacred by the Polish insurgents, the uprising came to a head in November 1943 when the city of Kiev almost fell to the insurgents, the rebel forces were pushed to the Polish border in March 1944 starting a stalemate. At the end of the revolt Russia was forced to allow a national referendum for independence on August 1, 1944, about 93% of the Polish population voted for independence.
After independence however the question of which government Poland would adopt came to the fore, at the Constituent Assembly of January 1945 it was decided that Poland would be a Semi-Constitutional Monarchy, inspired by the German and Danubian model, and a regency council was installed until the new king of poland could be crowned
The question of who would be the new king of Poland dragged on throughout the year 1945, such a detail could guarantee which sphere of influence the new nation would be part of, Russia wanted a personal union where Tsar Michael II was crowned King of Poland or that Michael II's son, George Mikhailovich, Count Brasov, who had no right to the Russian throne, would assume power ensuring Polish continuation in the Russian sphere, such a desire proved impossible due to anti-Russian sentiment in Poland.
Throughout 1945 several candidates were presented, Friedrich Christian, Marquis of Meissen was the German candidate, being descendants of Augustus II and Augustus III of Poland who ruled in the beginning of the 18th century, although he was a very popular candidate initially it turned out not to be chosen, another strong candidate was Prince George, Duke of Kent, youngest son of King George V.
In late August 1945, the Regency Council chose Archduke Karl Albrecht of Austria, who had fought on the side of the rebels during the War of Independence, his coronation also granted Polish control over Galicia, territory transferred from the Danube to Poland via of the Treaty of Krakow, Karl Albrecht adopted the royal name of Karol I, being crowned on December 1, 1945, his coronation put an end to the "Polish Question" and placed Poland in the Austro-German sphere.

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

To flag how bad things can get, consider this was perfectly acceptable in OTL as men's entertainment until the 1960s. In the ATL, consider that this is considered perfectly fine even in the 2020s:

Or worse yet:

 

[modelcitizen]

Here come Mrs. Stephen Phelps and Mrs. James McGriff on their way to vote for the first time in a national election.

(Thanks to LordVetinari for posting this picture elsewhere)

 

[modelcitizen]

To flag how bad things can get, consider this was perfectly acceptable in OTL as men's entertainment until the 1960s. In the ATL, consider that this is considered perfectly fine even in the 2020s:

View attachment 757604

Or worse yet:

View attachment 757607

No WW1, no Red Summer of 1919, no Tulsa Pogrom, and no President Harding telling tens of thousands of people in person in Birmingham that Black people deserved political and economic and civil rights. I can't even imagine being one of the thousands of Black people in that crowd hearing the president of the United States declare that out loud in the heart of the former Confederacy.

 

[modelcitizen]

Then again, as seen by the reactions of Reconstruction and the Jim Crow years tends to flag that people are slow to make any major changes in terms of social change. Consider that until 1962, children were actually forced to recite Protestant Christian prayers before class, and this was in public schools. This was the case even in cases wherein the person in question was Jewish or Catholic. Social change only comes through people challenging the social order, which often primarily comes during the onset and aftermath of war....

Another example, going back to World War II, women were expected to simply to raise children and were never expected to join the work force, even during the Great Depression. But when World War II was declared in the United States, the "Rosie the Riveter" movement was established, to deal with the manpower shortage, wherein millions of women joined the work force for the first time, and even joined the military for the first time. This planted the seeds for the Women's Rights movement, from Bela Abzugh to Betty Friedan to Rachel Carson (author of Silent Spring, which launched the environmentalist movement), providing opportunities from WPA Art Commissions to the WAC (Women's Air Corps).

Without WW1, no women's suffrage for a long, long time.

 

[Pedersen]

Then again, as seen by the reactions of Reconstruction and the Jim Crow years tends to flag that people are slow to make any major changes in terms of social change. Consider that until 1962, children were actually forced to recite Protestant Christian prayers before class, and this was in public schools. This was the case even in cases wherein the person in question was Jewish or Catholic. Social change only comes through people challenging the social order, which often primarily comes during the onset and aftermath of war....

Another example, going back to World War II, women were expected to simply to raise children and were never expected to join the work force, even during the Great Depression. But when World War II was declared in the United States, the "Rosie the Riveter" movement was established, to deal with the manpower shortage, wherein millions of women joined the work force for the first time, and even joined the military for the first time. This planted the seeds for the Women's Rights movement, from Bela Abzugh to Betty Friedan to Rachel Carson (author of Silent Spring, which launched the environmentalist movement), providing opportunities from WPA Art Commissions to the WAC (Women's Air Corps).

This is nonsensical anecdotal argumentation, and it is a good example of a us-centric world view, that is the idea that the world revolves around events in the US.

Womens rights, racial equality and enviromental concerns hardly originated in the United States, and to claim so is basically a denigation of the vast history of the rest of the world. Just to provide a simple example, then the first example of a law mandating the conservation of forests was a French law from 1280. These 3 are mega trends in history, which were hardly created by the world wars.

Claims such as "the mass internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II [..] provided the impetus for change" are simply silly. Claims such as "Rachel Carson [..] launched the environmentalist movement" are grand and overbearing, while claims such as "Another example, going back to World War II, women were expected to simply to raise children" are gross simplifications.

Racial equality, womens rights, female labour force participation, enviromental concerns were all on the up tick in most countries prior to world war 1, which negates the argument that "the world wars caused all this". As a simple data point please consider that the labour force participation of unmarried nonwhite women in the US was actually *higher* before ww1 than today. In Germany overall female labour participation first reached the level prior to ww1 by 1990, and without the reintegration of the horrid Communist dictorship was Eastern Germany might still be on the same level.

In summary, I don't see any hard evidence that the world wars were instrumental in anything else than the senseless deaths of millions, and while certain trends may have be accelerated by them, then it seems silly to claim that a lack of wars would leave us with the culture of 1960s. As Krishnamurti said then the observer is the observed.

 

[Kaiserreich333]

Emperor Luís I of Brazil died on July 15, 2022 at the age of 84, having ruled for 50 years, he was one of the greatest leaders in recent history, ascending the throne in 1972, after a plebiscite that restored the Brazilian monarchy.
He will be succeeded by his son, Prince Imperial Afonso of Brazil.

 

[LordUltimus]

What's the modern-day view of chemical weapons? What's nuclear power like?

 

[Lalli]

What's the modern-day view of chemical weapons? What's nuclear power like?

Without horrors of mustard gas on Western Front chemical weapons probably are not such taboo if then there is not some another war where is massive usage of chemical weapons.

Nuclear power probably would be still exist. Nuclear science was already going forward. Only thing is that at least nuclear weapons are delayed. Might be that nuclear plants are around before nuclear weapons. Another thing is how people generally would react to nukes. It is of course find out eventually that they are really dangerous but it probably would occur much later.

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

One trope that people seem to believe is that people were satisfied with the imperial colonial order. In the ATL, India would continue to view the British as evil:

 

[Lalli]

One trope that people seem to believe is that people were satisfied with the imperial colonial order. In the ATL, India would continue to view the British as evil:

True. That is really common trope. Indians haven't ever liked to be under colonial opression. Decolonisation was really unavoidable event. Eventually natives would are full of imperialism and colonialism is anyway really expensive for European countries. Even without world wars them mostly would become money pits which not give anything or too few back. It is just impossible to maintain such colonial empires where you have spent billions pounds/francs/reichmarks etc without getting too much back. And you have yet hundreds of millions people who demand them going away.

 

[Teiresias]

Without WW1, no women's suffrage for a long, long time.

Finland, Norway, Australia and New Zealand had women's suffrage before WW1 began. And there were plenty of other countries with active women's suffrage movements by 1914.

One trope that people seem to believe is that people were satisfied with the imperial colonial order. In the ATL, India would continue to view the British as evil:

India certainly won't be satisfied remaining as a colony, but WW1 did have a big effect on how things out, between the costs of the war in money and manpower, the Spanish Flu (which killed ~5% of the population), and anger at the British failing to repay India for their contributions to winning the war.

 

[modelcitizen]

Finland, Norway, Australia and New Zealand had women's suffrage before WW1 began. And there were plenty of other countries with active women's suffrage movements by 1914.

In Switzerland, women gained the right to vote in 1971. Nineteen seventy one.

Note that British and American women got suffrage around the same time, about a hundred years ago, shortly after WW1 which saw women taking male-held jobs while the men were fighting overseas etc. ("Coincidence? I think not!")

Britain and America also had women's suffrage movements that fought long and hard for the franchise.

The famous Seneca Convention called for women's suffrage in 1849 iirc.

 

[Teiresias]

In Switzerland, women gained the right to vote in 1971. Nineteen seventy one.

Loads of non-European countries (e.g. Brazil, Cuba, Thailand) did it in the 1930s - I doubt that those countries would delay it if there was no ww1.

Note that British and American women got suffrage around the same time, about a hundred years ago, shortly after WW1 which saw women taking male-held jobs while the men were fighting overseas etc. ("Coincidence? I think not!")

And France, despite participating in WW1 as well, didn't pass women's suffrage until 1944.

 

[Lalli]

Yes, many countries would delay female suffrage but I can't see that in 2022 would be much more countries without female suffrage than in OTL. Suffrage movements are quiet hard to pressure to silent without some really totalitarian ysstem. Either you just give up or then try suppress suffrage movements forever.

And generally IMO it is quiet crazy think that society and politics is stagnated eternally to 1914 level without world wars. There has already been much of progress on many things and it just not stop without WW1. And colonies would too get their independence without world wars altough it would happen later and probably there would be still some colonies left.

And technology too is not stagnated. Tanks, nukes and other military things would are still invented. Same thing is too with civilian technology.

 

[Teiresias]

And technology too is not stagnated. Tanks, nukes and other military things would are still invented. Same thing is too with civilian technology.

If anything I'd say that technology would be accelerated, without the millions of deaths and decades of lost growth.

Yes, many countries would delay female suffrage but I can't see that in 2022 would be much more countries without female suffrage than in OTL. Suffrage movements are quiet hard to pressure to silent without some really totalitarian ysstem. Either you just give up or then try suppress suffrage movements forever.

The US, Canada and Britain in particular I think would have difficulty holding back female suffrage, because they're all English-speaking countries (barring Quebec), and you'd have suffragettes going 'hey, they gave women the vote in Australia and New Zealand, and the sky hasn't fallen in!'

And the US already had some elections that women could run in even before the 19th Amendment, so the seeds were already there.

 

[Catsmate]

Without WW1, no women's suffrage for a long, long time.

Rubbish.
Even allowing for the US-centric viewpoint, there is a whole planet out there, this isn't even true in the USA.
The first US states to enfranchise women were Wyoming and Utah, decades before the Great War. In fact before the war erupted women had voting rights in eleven states and limited suffrage in eighyt more.

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Without the 2 world wars, consider that Asian-Americans have almost zero growth in their population. In 1904, the Chinese Exclusion Act barred immigration of all "Mongolian races". In 1905, Asian white intermarriage was strictly forbidden.

In 1917, Asians were excluded, being considered residents of a "barred zone". In OTL 1918, naturalization was offered to Asian veterans. Without WWI, Asians still considered the "Yellow Peril",

Timeline

 

[CASSICTOR2]

Without the 2 world wars, consider that Asian-Americans have almost zero growth in their population. In 1904, the Chinese Exclusion Act barred immigration of all "Mongolian races". In 1905, Asian white intermarriage was strictly forbidden.

In 1917, Asians were excluded, being considered residents of a "barred zone". In OTL 1918, naturalization was offered to Asian veterans. Without WWI, Asians still considered the "Yellow Peril",

Timeline

The Average life of European, White Settlers and White American in TLWW

The Average Life of POC, LGBT and Women in TLWW