There could well be various other independence / nationalist movements taking inspiration from the KMT as well.
沒有國民黨就沒有中國, Without the Kuomintang there would be no China, A Republic of China Story
- Thread starter CELTICEMPIRE
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Chiang Ching-kuo is among those who might succeed Chiang Kai-shek. His ascension to power is by no means guaranteed, however. Sun Fo, Chen Lifu, and others are very influential as well.
Yes.
Be funny if the Quebec Separatist Movement in Canada took inspiration from the Kuomintang. That and these Quebec Separatists took inspiration from the Left-Wing Nationalist Anti-Colonial Struggles in the Third World. Separatist Groups like the Rally for National Independence, the Movement of Sovereignty Association, and the subsequent Quebec Party were inspired by Third World Anti-Colonial Rhetoric.
Kinda offtopic. Originally the Quebec Nationalist Movement was dominated by Right-Wing Catholic Nationalists under Duplessis' Union Nationale (With Duplessis and his Right-Wing UN running the province in the 30s-50s). However, these Quebec Nationalists supported staying in Canada, arguing that the French and English formed a Union. Hence there was a division within Quebec Nationalism, you have the Autonomism who supported staying in Canada but sought to expand Quebec autonomy, but disillusionment with the Right-Wing Autonomists led to the rise of Separatism (Later called the Sovereigntist Movement). While both Separatists and Autonomists were Quebec Nationalists, the Separatists saw the Autonomists as traitors who supported the English exploitation of French Canada. Plus Duplessis' Premiership of Quebec didn't help, while Duplessis and the Union Nationale were Quebec Nationalists, Quebec was a "backward province" that never saw social or economic development under the Union Nationale's administration (That and the UN were staunch Conservative Reactionaries who thought nothing needed change). And so disillusioned by the autonomists' "Pro-Ottawa" stance and their reactionary viewpoints, the Separatists who emerged sought an alternative, supporting Quebec's exit from Canada to end "English Colonial Exploitation". The Separatists inspired by the Decolonization of the Third World utilized Anti-Colonial Rhetoric in their ideology and propaganda. Plus Quebec Nationalism saw a Rejuvenation (And the Emergence of Quebec Separatism) in the Quebec Quiet Revolution (Quebec's Modernization and Development) with the 1960s, but that's a story for another time.
But that being said, I could see the Quebec Nationalist Movement taking inspiration from the Kuomintang. I could especially see Quebec Nationalists/Separatists using the Three Principles and the late Sun Yat-Sen's Ideas as a basis for their Separatist Ideology. I can especially see Quebec Separatists exploiting Sun Yat-Sen's and the Kuomintang's Anti-Colonial Rhetoric.
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I do look forward to seeing how KMT China develops without the insanity of the Cultural Revolution, Great Leap Forward, or One Child Policy.
This China in 2022 could be economically superior to OTL and demographically much healthier too rather then a ticking time bomb of demographic collapse.
Also remind me, but Korea is united under the Republic ITTL right?
This China in 2022 could be economically superior to OTL and demographically much healthier too rather then a ticking time bomb of demographic collapse.
Also remind me, but Korea is united under the Republic ITTL right?
Though Quebec Nationalists would take inspiration from the KMT, Chiang Kai-shek has directed KMT operatives in Canada to encourage Chinese-Canadians to vote for the Progressive Conservative Party. So any actual KMT support for Quebec Nationalism wouldn't happen unless relations between China and Canada took a turn for the worse.
I have a chapter on society and culture coming soon.
Korea is divided along the 38th parallel.
How? If the KMT ruels China there is just so little supply the Russians can give overall, no Chinese backing at all, so beside a few easily crushed rebellions the Communists in Korea stood no chance on the long run, they could even go down after some election and to few Russian aid in such a scenario.
Vladivostok is right next to North Korea and connected to the Trans-Siberian Railway. The Soviets provided the bulk of the weaponry support and even OTL the North was causing trouble before the CCP won in China.
What is different is that ITTL, Stalin would not have given authorization for the invasion due to the lack of support from China which was his condition IOTL. However that does not mean North Korea wouldn't be interested in the possibiity or stirring up trouble in some way or trying to get Soviet support for an invasion. There has so far been no news on any of this IIRC.
I’m not as optimistic about KMT China’s prospects, if only because the conditions that let OTL China and the asian tigers before it succeed as export driven economies weren’t quite in place at this point ITTL.
Also, say whatever you will about the chicomms, but they basically had a clean slate to work with on the mainland once Deng took power. The KMT can do land reform and the like, but their limits will be more strict than the CCP’s, if only because landlords are a pillar of support instead of people to line up and shoot. They managed it in Taiwan but that’s arguably because they had no qualms dispossessing any Japanese owned property and enterprises.
No great leap forward or cultural revolution is an unmitigated positive though, I’ll give you that. I’m just saying the absence of those disasters doesn’t necessarily mean more success is on the cards — after all dozens of countries in Asia had relatively quiet later-halves of the 20th Century, but are still just middling economies today.
Yeah the Soviets did, partly like with the CCP, givign them outright captured Japanese stockpiles and some other stuff, but not only is that lacking majorly TTL, but the roads, railway and suppl lines over VLadivostock alone are not only rather limited to do it all by themselves, they are also rather visible. Any involvement would be a well found target for the Americans and TTL Chinese in the UN Security Council or world press. OTL a Communist Revolt in Korea and the Communsit Invasion faield until not only Soviet aid came, but a massive ammount of Chinese "Volunteers" crossed the northern rivers. That's not possible TTL and withotu Soviet Manchuria and therefore a strong Soviet base in North Korea, either the first suggested Korean elections and unification idea trough these takes care of the Communsit Koreans, or their own failing in any rebellion, uprising and invasion attempt, wich the South (equaly despotic and eager for unification back in the day) will all to gladly use as a pretext to ensure fair northern unification elections; with their own troops on the ground.
Fair enough, but nothing is happening in that regard. It is already 1965, there's no way that nothing has happened in Korea. None of this Communist failing or attempts at reunification by either party. Also as a recognized state, there's no reason why the Soviets can't support North Korea and tell the UN to stuff it as a Security council member. America and China saying stuff can't meaningfully stop them.
It seems like the story is ignoring Korea.
Yeah but Stalin played it cool most of the time, not starting major conflicts, but rather localised uprisigns or civil wars, in a more united, or simply never split Korea without a strong North were the massively Soviet backed Communist can take all the Power I assume he would go more for a subtle route, liek supporting the Agrarian, Socialist and COmmunist Korean parties as a left-coaliton.
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On that note, any other KMT-modelled parties you see in the "Global South"?
Yeah but without direct massice backing OTL trough CCP and Soviet Union, how long could that realisticly hold long-run? Especialy if KMT China intervenes in any meaningful way to cut of the small supply route over Vladivostock shoudl relatiosn turn sour?
Not for long I am assuming. In any case my problem is that it has been 15 years since the Soviet/American forces pulled out and none of the things you were saying, which were all logical, have been even touched upon. Korea has been ignored entirely.
True, I'm just saying that without any backing, the South still had a better chance overall to unify it all. We will see when a update about Korea comes out. ^^
I do imagine Africa would see the appeal of Sun Yat-Sen's Three Principles.
Also with Apartheid in South Africa, I could see the ANC taking cues from the Kuomintang. Basically, they try to support the Three Principles on the basis of Racial Equality and opposition to Apartheid, with the ANC using the Three Principles as a means of denouncing White Colonialism. Plus the Anti-Apartheid Movement being sponsored by the KMT would also garner good foreign PR for China, and it could also encourage Right-Wing Support for Anti-Apartheid. Speaking of Apartheid, I am curious of the Chinese thoughts on the American Civil Rights Movement?
Heck, I could see the ZANU and ZAPU groups fighting Ian Smith's White Minority Government in the Rhodesian Bush Wars supporting the Three Principles instead of Marxism. Maybe Mugabe doesn't go crazy this time and actually gets his stuff together with a Nationalist China backing him. Be funny if Mugabe is inspired by Chiang Kai-Shek and tries to embody his aesthetics dressing all pomp in a fancy Military Uniform - like Generalissimo Chiang Kai-Shek, you have Generalissimo Robert Mugabe.
Plus in Portugal's African Colonies, you have various Anti-Colonial Nationalists in the Portuguese Colonial Wars becoming less Marxist and supporting the KMT-sponsored Three Principles Ideology. I could see China supporting the various Anti-Portuguese Rebel Factions in Portugal's Colonial Wars in the 60s-70s. That and Sino-Portuguese relations aren't exactly great given the dispute over China's claims on Portuguese-owned Macau.
I certainly would like to see China's involvement in African Decolonization. Plus African Decolonization could become a tug-of-war between China and the Soviets. The Soviets end up supporting Marxist-Nationalist Groups, while the Chinese supports Nationalist Groups inspired by Sun Yat-Sen and the Three Principles.
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