When you Wish Upon a Frog (Book II of the Jim Henson at Disney saga)

[Plateosaurus]

Well, glad mine and our special observer’s contributions are in.

Re: @Shiny_Agumon
- Beatty is less racist then he is sexist and misogynist here, and its hardly portrayed as silly for the most part, which may or may not help.
- National Lampoon’s Christmas wasn’t well received IOTL’s point too.

‘National Lampoon’s Christmas Vacation’ (1989) Review (Published 2018)

Janet Maslin reviewed “National Lampoon’s Christmas Vacation” for The New York Times on Dec. 1, 1989. Read the original review.

www.nytimes.com

God Curry as Iago sounds delicious. As hammy and as magnificently camp as he can be, I feel a lot of people forget that Curry is also a really good actor in general and phenomenally creepy when he wants to be. His turn in Criminal Minds still sticks out in my mind, and I wasn't even a regular watcher of the show.

His performance here does veer into ham at times, but for the most part, he’s an unhinged man mad high command has punished him for wrongdoings, like a spoiled child. One scene I picture is him in his own quarters (set up to look more like a kid’s bedroom) where he does one of the monologues while trashing it in a tantrum, ranting about how everyone is against him and how *he* should be the one promoted.

Not a fan of the Crypt Keeper going Hood. Isn’t there a funeral parlour that fills the role IOTL?

Would still watch both Ba-erm, The Sheep-Pig here. Same for Gator Bait.

 

[Nerdman3000]

The Assassination of Julius Caesar: Francis Ford Coppola brings Old Hollywood splendor in this Old Hollywood Epic, sure to command the Oscars[19]; ⭐⭐⭐⭐

[19] More on this by @Nerdman3000; Coppola’s having a busy few years for sure between this and Annie and The Road to Ruin!

Coppola is bringing back the Hollywood Epic and I'm all here for it.

For anyone wondering, you’ll have to wait a bit to see more about this film. I won’t be posting the guest post relating to this film in the official Hensonverse guest post thread until the timeline officially reaches 1996, since the post will also relate to and be also partially also about another work that will be released in 1996 from the same writer (who I should mention might be a bit of a surprise) behind The Assassination of Julius Caesar.

 

[Daibhid C]

A good selection of movies. A few things here I'd probably catch on video or TV (but nothing with spaceships, wizards or capes, which are the things 19 year old me is most likely to go to the cinema for).

One ... not even a nitpick, but a niggle:

pose as Al at a press conference to cover up his affair with a female staffer.

This feels very much like a "Bill" plot point that doesn't entirely fit an "Al", but I could be wrong.

 

[jpj1421]

A good selection of movies. A few things here I'd probably catch on video or TV (but nothing with spaceships, wizards or capes, which are the things 19 year old me is most likely to go to the cinema for).

One ... not even a nitpick, but a niggle:

This feels very much like a "Bill" plot point that doesn't entirely fit an "Al", but I could be wrong.

I see what you're saying, but the 1988 Democratic nominee ITTL, the environment where the first draft of the script would have been written, was caught up in a very public sex scandal as well as some other prominent politicians since then. So other than the name the President in the movie would be seen as a "no politicians are harmed" reference to that. If Kline was still in the role, there might be some umbrage in the Gore camp at the suggestion, but Williams has a very different energy than Gore.

 

[Shiny_Agumon]

Re: @Shiny_Agumon
- Beatty is less racist then he is sexist and misogynist here, and its hardly portrayed as silly for the most part, which may or may not help.
- National Lampoon’s Christmas wasn’t well received IOTL’s point too.

I didn't through that it would be comical just not as unhinged as Spacey.

I heard that, well give it a few more reruns and it's going to be fine.

 

[Unknown]

Apologies for the long post, but, while I think that Beatty was a decent replacement for Spacey, here's who I would have picked as John Doe: Andy Griffith!!! (Assuming he was available, of course.)

Why him? Well, in 1957, he was in Elia Kazan's A Face In The Crowd, an eerily prescient film (1) where he played Larry "Lonesome" Rhodes, who becomes a megalomaniac through the power of television, able to influence national events (until his eventual downfall). Griffith apparently started developing Rhodes' mannerisms, which affected him to the point that he didn't play villains for years, going on to play Sheriff Andy Taylor in the TV show The Andy Griffith Show (his most well-known role), before following that up by playing Atlanta lawyer Ben Matlock in Matlock. But, over the years, he had other villainous roles, such as in the movies Savages, Pray For The Wildcats, Murder In Coweta County (2), and Crime of Innocence. (3)

In 1995, he starred in a TV movie called Gramps, where he played a murderous grandfather intent on kidnapping his grandson so that he can raise him in a twisted attempt to recreate the family he had (and lost when his wife left him with their son (who is played by John Ritter--another person I thought of as an alternate John Doe (4)). He plays him with the same folksy charm that he used to play Andy Taylor and Ben Matlock--and then he reveals his dark, evil side, and it is chilling, IMO.

Basically, in the scene where John Doe comes into the police station, imagine the camera revealing the killer--and it's Andy Griffith, of all people!!! For a similar effect, watch Henry Fonda in Once Upon A Time in the West, where he plays a killer who shoots a running child in the back... (5)

Just my .02.

With regards to Ned Beatty, he did play a serial-killing dentist in CSI, and he had a friendly, sinister demeanor in that one (he describes his serial killing and his efforts to make a child's first trip to the dentist as non-frightening as possible in the same friendly, affable tone, kind of like a sinister grandfather). So, I would have had him play John Doe as alternatively sinister and friendly as possible...

On a side note, he played Detective Bolander in Homicide: Life On The Street for a few seasons...

(1) When considering OTL events, of course, and that is all I'll say on the matter.
(2) Watch that sometime, if you haven't already--not only does Andy Griffith play the villain in that true-crime story, but Johnny Cash, of all people, plays the sheriff who brings him to justice, and it's a really good film.
(3) Really, if Andy Griffith hadn't been doing Matlock, he could have played the hanging judge in Nothing But Trouble in OTL if it had been a straight-up horror film.
(4) John Ritter also played a villain a few times, too, and just imagine Jack Tripper as John Doe...
(5) In fact, this is how Sergio Leone, the director of Once Upon A Time in the West, managed to sell Fonda on starring as the villain in the movie (Fonda rejected it initially) in OTL--since Fonda had played good guys up to that point, Leone told Fonda to imagine the theatergoers' shock when the camera pans up to show the killer, and it's Henry Fonda...

 

[Geekhis Khan]

Thanks, all, and thanks to the guest reviewers for their interesting films! Sorry for not replying Wed, but this week has been rough.

@Geekhis Khan Out of curiousity, will the Goofy Movie series happen ttl? It might be something that Jim would enjoy with the whole Father-Son aspect

I honestly let that one slip my attention. I'm not sure if anyone wants to do a guest post on that, or I'll kick around something similar for '96. or '97.

Also does he take off the helmet?

But does he keep his helmet on?

Normally when you hire a big name actor (like Stallone) you make sure the audience sees their face. With Lundgren, you could get away with keeping it under a helmet. I'd assume something ala Season 1 of The Mandalorian where he keeps his helmet on until a character-critical moment.

(Unless that's his actual name thanks to butterflies)

Actual name due to butterflies. @nick_crenshaw82 and some others had some ideas but I never got into the details on the alt-Bane/Valley Saga.

I have no idea if the Khan is a Critter, but that's a very sly reference there if he is.

I have no idea what a "Critter" is in this context. I just chose an actress about the right age/appearance (Hollywood likes to hire child actors older than their characters since they can work longer and stay more focused).

Considering how the protagonist looks like on the cover and the fact that John Candy is alive ITTL I think he would have been a better choice.

Well, he looked the part a lot more before his emergency crash diet following his heart attack, but yea, he was Landis's first choice given their long friendship/working relationship. Still, Candy is honestly far too likeable for Ignatius, who is an absolute judgmental Incel asshole. Also, Goodman has lived in New Orleans and can do the accent/attitude quite well, so he seemed a natural.

Does this version have the Paul Brothers in it and if yes does it still have their scene in it:

I haven't put that much thought into it, TBH, but if anyone wants to do a detailed guest post go for it.

First I still think Bob Hoskins would have been a better choice for an aristocratic Penguin:

A great idea for someone else's TL.

Second does this mean that the DCEU is dead in the water?

Stay tuned.

Reminder we have the Speculation Thread guys, you can go there if you want to continue the conversation.

Yes, please. If you find yourself tempted to reply a second time to a topic, then it's time to move to the Spec Thread. I really want to not lock out at 500 pages before we even get to 1998.

So, can we get a update about the state of anime in America?

If anyone wants to do so, by all means go for it. I'll mention specific anime here and there, but no Deep Dive is forthcoming from me. I'm not nearly versed enough in Anime to do the subject justice and don't have time to research.

Apologies for the long post, but, while I think that Beatty was a decent replacement for Spacey, here's who I would have picked as John Doe: Andy Griffith!!! (Assuming he was available, of course.)

Why him? Well, in 1957, he was in Elia Kazan's A Face In The Crowd, an eerily prescient film (1) where he played Larry "Lonesome" Rhodes, who becomes a megalomaniac through the power of television, able to influence national events (until his eventual downfall). Griffith apparently started developing Rhodes' mannerisms, which affected him to the point that he didn't play villains for years, going on to play Sheriff Andy Taylor in the TV show The Andy Griffith Show (his most well-known role), before following that up by playing Atlanta lawyer Ben Matlock in Matlock. But, over the years, he had other villainous roles, such as in the movies Savages, Pray For The Wildcats, Murder In Coweta County (2), and Crime of Innocence. (3)

In 1995, he starred in a TV movie called Gramps, where he played a murderous grandfather intent on kidnapping his grandson so that he can raise him in a twisted attempt to recreate the family he had (and lost when his wife left him with their son (who is played by John Ritter--another person I thought of as an alternate John Doe (4)). He plays him with the same folksy charm that he used to play Andy Taylor and Ben Matlock--and then he reveals his dark, evil side, and it is chilling, IMO.

Basically, in the scene where John Doe comes into the police station, imagine the camera revealing the killer--and it's Andy Griffith, of all people!!! For a similar effect, watch Henry Fonda in Once Upon A Time in the West, where he plays a killer who shoots a running child in the back... (5)

Just my .02.

With regards to Ned Beatty, he did play a serial-killing dentist in CSI, and he had a friendly, sinister demeanor in that one (he describes his serial killing and his efforts to make a child's first trip to the dentist as non-frightening as possible in the same friendly, affable tone, kind of like a sinister grandfather). So, I would have had him play John Doe as alternatively sinister and friendly as possible...

On a side note, he played Detective Bolander in Homicide: Life On The Street for a few seasons...

(1) When considering OTL events, of course, and that is all I'll say on the matter.
(2) Watch that sometime, if you haven't already--not only does Andy Griffith play the villain in that true-crime story, but Johnny Cash, of all people, plays the sheriff who brings him to justice, and it's a really good film.
(3) Really, if Andy Griffith hadn't been doing Matlock, he could have played the hanging judge in Nothing But Trouble in OTL if it had been a straight-up horror film.
(4) John Ritter also played a villain a few times, too, and just imagine Jack Tripper as John Doe...
(5) In fact, this is how Sergio Leone, the director of Once Upon A Time in the West, managed to sell Fonda on starring as the villain in the movie (Fonda rejected it initially) in OTL--since Fonda had played good guys up to that point, Leone told Fonda to imagine the theatergoers' shock when the camera pans up to show the killer, and it's Henry Fonda...

Yes, another very interesting idea...for someone else's TL.

@Geekhis Khan ,I wonder how much money does Batman: The Penguin’s Gambit make?

Moved to this post since it's a question a lot of folks will have. Let's say around $330 million, given the popularity of the franchise (on par with OTL Batman Forever).

 

[WhovianHolmesianChap]

Would Young, Abercrombie and Hingle return for The Penguin's Gambit?

 

[Ogrebear]

Othello- directed by Sidney Poitier and with Tim Curry? Might be worth a look, ITTL me probably considers it, esp after the gongs.

The Bad Seed,- will be a 'water-cooler' movie, much talked about, but I suspect ITTL me never sees it.

Seven Sins- Might have caught this on video much later. Sounds like a solid cast let down by the ending; "grossing $242.5 million on its $33 million budget" - it certainly does well though. I hope it does not spawn sequels. Nice to see the Timeline's butterflies in full effect here.

"With Kevin Spacey out of the picture due to his sexual abuse scandal" - any chance of redemption for Spacey? He was caught a lot earlier than OTL and people have come back from worse even if some of the charges stick he is not Crosby.

Dave- One of my favourite movies, I suspect ITTL me will like this version. It's slightly less cynical than the OTL version with Dave letting the President resume duties instead of faking a fatal heart attack so the nice VP can take over from the scumbag. Still Williams will probably pull it off in an very entertaining way.

An Affair of State.- very good cast there. I'm sure its got heart as a movie, and ITTL me might like it, but probably a on-video movie.

Operation Dumbo Drop:- This sounds dumb a rocks, but I suspect will be one of those stupid films that gets put on post-pub Sat nights.

Tales from the Hood:- Fun, but not a cinema watch; will age badly one thinks, but kinda retro-cool later!

The Sheep-Pig- Probably a pass, though a late night drunk watch might be fun for ITTL me.

Good round up there @Geekhis Khan - butterflies are well flapping.

 

[Shiny_Agumon]

I honestly let that one slip my attention. I'm not sure if anyone wants to do a guest post on that, or I'll kick around something similar for '96. or '97.

A Goofy Movie is in that point significant that it establishes that Max Goof ages and doesn't stays an eternal pre-teen like Donald's nephews (weird shows like Quack Pack not withstanding).

Although the first obvious butterfly would be the singer Powerline who was based on Michael Jackson and obviously wouldn't in a TL where MJ has been dead for over a decade at this point. So Alt Powerline would probably be a rapper which honestly makes a lot more sense for the "Goofy fears that his son is drifting apart from him and falling in with a bad crowd" subplot.

Maybe Goofy could forbid his son from listening to Powerline because he uses bad language (still obviously PG appropriate) until they later met the man and realise what he's trying to say with his music?

Normally when you hire a big name actor (like Stallone) you make sure the audience sees their face. With Lundgren, you could get away with keeping it under a helmet. I'd assume something ala Season 1 of The Mandalorian where he keeps his helmet on until a character-critical moment.

It is acceptable. Although hardcore fans are still going to be pissed at this.

Actual name due to butterflies. @nick_crenshaw82 and some others had some ideas but I never got into the details on the alt-Bane/Valley Saga.

I would love a guest about that!

Knightfall is actually one of my favourite Batman stories and I love Bane.

 

[GrahamB]

I have no idea what a "Critter" is in this context.

Fair enough. Coincidentally it happens that Ashley Johnson's current character on Critical Role (fans of which have adopted the name "Critters")is also named Fearne/Fern so I thought it might have been deliberate.

 

[Quig]

What is this lady up to in the Hensonverse?

 

[Plateosaurus]

Well, glad mine and our special observer’s contributions are in.

Re: @Shiny_Agumon
- National Lampoon’s Christmas wasn’t well recieved IOTL too.
Not a fan of the Crypt Keeper going Hood. Isn’t there a funeral parlour that fills the role IOTL?

What is this lady up to in the Hensonverse?

View attachment 755071

who is the lady’s name in question?

 

[Quig]

Rebecca Schaeffer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ajm8888]

Rebecca Schaeffer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

All I know is she is alive as if 1995

 

[Ogrebear]

The Hensonverse Speculation and Commentary thread: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/hensonverse-speculation-and-commentary.529158/

For random thoughts, speculation, does X exist questions, and commentary on the timeline in general.

Making this post now as I can see it needing copy/pasting a lot...

 

[Unknown]

Wonder how the 1995 hurricane season will play out in TTL. This is what I remember from that year:

Say what you will about Dan Rather (it was a shame how his career ended--then again, he shouldn't have used questionable documents in the Bush Memogate story), but he had some serious balls to do the news broadcast like that, IMO...

 

[nick_crenshaw82]

Although the first obvious butterfly would be the singer Powerline who was based on Michael Jackson and obviously wouldn't in a TL where MJ has been dead for over a decade at this point. So Alt Powerline would probably be a rapper which honestly makes a lot more sense for the "Goofy fears that his son is drifting apart from him and falling in with a bad crowd" subplot.

Based on Tupac maybe?

Say what you will about Dan Rather (it was a shame how his career ended--then again, he shouldn't have used questionable documents in the Bush Memogate story), but he had some serious balls to do the news broadcast like that, IMO...

Are you hoping he doesn't make the same mistake ITTL?

 

[nick_crenshaw82]

What is this lady up to in the Hensonverse?

View attachment 755071

All I know is she is alive as if 1995

She recently stared in Jumping through Hoops with Billy Crystal.

 

[ThatAutisticGuy]

Although the first obvious butterfly would be the singer Powerline who was based on Michael Jackson and obviously wouldn't in a TL where MJ has been dead for over a decade at this point. So Alt Powerline would probably be a rapper which honestly makes a lot more sense for the "Goofy fears that his son is drifting apart from him and falling in with a bad crowd" subplot.

It could be a tribute to Michael perhaps? Idk but doing Tupac would also be pretty cool