I just discovered this and have to say you've mapped out one of the most interesting WW1 stories I've read in awhile. As Herodotus said its refreshing to read a story where the drive is what events seem plausible rather than just having a pre-set goal in mind.
To the Victor, Go the Spoils (Redux): A Plausible Central Powers Victory
- Thread starter TheReformer
- Start date
Sorry thereformer, I was done.
Lets end it here, I raised the point I wanted to make and the point is independent of who made it. You example does illustrate how hard it is for an OP to direct or end discussions here. Not solely a bad thing, but I actually just wanted to make the point I felt needed to be said and not divert the TL further by becoming a target on this TL.
Good tip, will use it now
Carriers and atrocities are not the same thing.
Lets end it here, I raised the point I wanted to make and the point is independent of who made it. You example does illustrate how hard it is for an OP to direct or end discussions here. Not solely a bad thing, but I actually just wanted to make the point I felt needed to be said and not divert the TL further by becoming a target on this TL.
Thoroughly enjoyable read. I'm most interested in the eventual fate of the Austrian empire; even victorious, four years of war must surely have broken forever the Hapsburg project. With an increasingly harsh peace on the horizon for the average German, the lack of any really significant victory to celebrate in Vienna, and the restive Slavs still harbouring nationalist tendencies, how long can that state last, and what will be the eventual fate of the German Austria? The name of the chap escapes me at the minute, but there was an Austrian diplomat or minister who published memoirs after the war stating that a lot of the population were favourable to the idea of a German-Austrian union. Will this Germany feel compelled to keep the current structure in place? Can it even do so?
1. Don't derail.
2. Don't snipe at each other.
3. If something is completely implausible/impossible report it. I suspect that there are no issues with this, since the thread has run 23 pages and the only reports it has generated have been due to people sniping each other.
4. Go forth, and sin no more.
2. Don't snipe at each other.
3. If something is completely implausible/impossible report it. I suspect that there are no issues with this, since the thread has run 23 pages and the only reports it has generated have been due to people sniping each other.
4. Go forth, and sin no more.
Yeah! Sorry, I actually just completely forgot to post last night
That being said, now we've had two weeks of daily posts I'm gunna go down to every other day now. This is just so I don't run out of backed up pre-written content while writing/researching the next stuff.
Cheers!
Ironically, Austria presented WW1 as a defensive war internally in spite of being the ones to trigger it. While there were voices favouring annexations, by and large they seemed resolved not to use the opportunity to expand and instead favoured setting up puppet regimes (in Serbia and Montenegro).
So, a white peace would be very much spun as a victory, particularly if Serbia is defanged (and nobody is going to care overmuch about it after Russia bowed out).
The nationalists are, as of mid-1918 still set in their demands for autonomy and that is a dangerous minefield that could blow Austria's legs out from under it. There are pro-independence groups, but they're, as yet, not the strongest. And most of the pro-independence national councils were in France at the time and reliant on French support, excepting the Czechoslovak Legion (who are stuck in Russia proper). There's also the issue of the returning troops - the Hungarian revolution didn't come out of nowhere and it can trace its roots to returning PoWs who were exposed to communist ideology in Russia. Hungary, with its restrictive voting franchise dominated by landed nobles proved a fertile ground for communist ideology.
In short, I wouldn't underestimate the durability of the Habsburg monarchy, though the possibility of collapse certainly exists.
Yeah, the update itself on the peace conference points out that Austria-Hungry pretty much wants no more Slavs and is not interested in territory expansion, maybe only for that copper mine that is like just a few miles out side it’s border and even then that’s barley a change.
The breakup of Austria-Hungary was as much imposed on the country by the Allies as something that the subject nationalities wanted themselves. Yes, many wanted it, but Trianon was really as much about punishing Austria and pushing for a very Wilsonian (and thus half-nonsensical) idea of national self-determination (and democracy, because god forbid Hungary get to keep the Hapsburgs like they wanted). And giving France their circle of allies in the region. Yugoslavia was not really something most non-Serbs wanted, or at least not in the way Serbia got it, but because the Serbs were recast as the good guys of the Balkans by the Entente, they got their wish list from Santa, even at the expense of the Italians.
Austria had a lot of problems after 4 years of expensive war, but the Hapsburgs were now free of Franz Joseph and his stodgy conservatism, so I'd say Austria has an even chance of doing much better now, all said and done. The real trick will be slapping the Hungarians hard enough to get them to accept reforms, but if the returning PoWs try for revolution, Austria may hold any assistance hostage to renegotiation of things.
They should anyway.
Austria had a lot of problems after 4 years of expensive war, but the Hapsburgs were now free of Franz Joseph and his stodgy conservatism, so I'd say Austria has an even chance of doing much better now, all said and done. The real trick will be slapping the Hungarians hard enough to get them to accept reforms, but if the returning PoWs try for revolution, Austria may hold any assistance hostage to renegotiation of things.
They should anyway.
Well, yes, but that's not relevant to my point. The Croats were on the losing side, of course they get screwed. The Italians getting screwed in favor of Yugoslavia was just some weird serb-favoritism.
Can't believe how many likes some of these posts have got - really great to see. Didn't think I'd get up to 80+!
Congratulations! May this be a sign of a long timeline, one which will one day win a Turtledove!
I'm a late discoverer of the timeline and am really enjoying it. Likes to follow!
I think that's an indication that there is a lot of interest in a plausible Central Powers victory timeline that isn't a wank. Also, a lot of people probably want to see Germany do better coming out of WW1 and avoid all that Nazi-nastiness, OTL WW2 and the economic calamity of the early 1920s and the Great Depression.
I'm interested because i do like to see Germany do better (I have somewhat of an inner German nationalist despite not being German myself) and the timeline has been well written thus far.
Edit: Out of curiosity, what are the long term plans for Germany. Seeing as they won the Great War, albeit not overwhelmingly decisively, and would avoid the OTL Versailles treatment and economic collapse/calamity to OTL's extent, I'd imagine they'd do a heck of a lot better over the 1920s. They still have very high debt levels from the Hindenburg Programme and will have to deal with unrest/agitation from various sectors of society who desire reform, so they are not by any means out of the woods and their success or failure may depend on their willingness to commence reforms (eg. universal suffrage and dropping the age for election down to 21/20 from 25, removing the Prussian 3-class franchise system, changing election method from single member constituencies that have remained in place since 1871 and are disproportionately in favour of rural Germany to something else, maybe some other popular reforms to throw the liberals/SPD/pacifists a bone/red meat).
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I totally agree; the durability of the Habsburg monarchy is much too often underestimated and prey to tropes and clichès, even in very good timelines.
This stems, IMHO opinion from the fact that most people who write CP victory TLs are either from the anglosphere, where they usually resent Austria for being "illiberal" or "backward", or from Germany, and German posters of CP victory TLs can't usually do without cherishing the idea of GrossDeutschland.
I've seen Austria or Austria-Hungary do plainly idiotic things in otherwise excellent TLs just because the poster was deeply convinced of the austrians being "stupid" and being systematically ruled by incompetent idiots.
That and, oh, Austria-Hungary systematically loses every war they fight, against anyone, anytime, often by virtue of decisions so illogical as to make a good showing in a nonsensical sit-com.
That said, concerning annexations, as @Tom_B put It, I Just see the Austrians take the Bor copper mine, which sits right across the border
This stems, IMHO opinion from the fact that most people who write CP victory TLs are either from the anglosphere, where they usually resent Austria for being "illiberal" or "backward", or from Germany, and German posters of CP victory TLs can't usually do without cherishing the idea of GrossDeutschland.
I've seen Austria or Austria-Hungary do plainly idiotic things in otherwise excellent TLs just because the poster was deeply convinced of the austrians being "stupid" and being systematically ruled by incompetent idiots.
That and, oh, Austria-Hungary systematically loses every war they fight, against anyone, anytime, often by virtue of decisions so illogical as to make a good showing in a nonsensical sit-com.
That said, concerning annexations, as @Tom_B put It, I Just see the Austrians take the Bor copper mine, which sits right across the border
I agree. Though there is nothing wrong with a good German-wank - I hope to read one soon.
I would also like to see Germany continue to rise as great power - not merely economic and scientific, but also military and cultural (I am a German Nationalist despite being German myself), and this has to be one of the most well written timelines that I have read so far.
One of the other timelines that I enjoy is A Day in July, regarding how Germany develops - where they actually become a stable parliamentary democracy under a constitutional monarchy and have better luck than OTL.
kham_coc
Banned
In the Short term, AH should have no troubles with their minorities, long term the state might be unviable with democracy (or it might be fine entirely plausible). The bigger problem is if the Austrians want independence, that is what I think would/could do AH in, at least in the short term.