Because exactly is why will be very important to the Muslims, doubling as a major garrison/ribat at the time but is possible having a secondary bureaucratic outpost in the Anatolian safer side
That is butterfly away for obvious reasons.
WI: Umayyad Conquest of Constantinople?
- Thread starter how
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The Arabs never took former capitals as their own Ctesiphon , nor Alexandria nor Carthage were used I heard that Muslims actively do this to not interact with the locals
I disagree. Maybe not Spain and Portugal specifically but any Christian state that is forged from a reconquista against Muslims won't just stop when they reach the Sea.
I intended to address your rebuttal of the notion that convert communities maintained their ethno-identity, in which you cited examples of Christian denominations in the Middle East.
One must consider, for example, that the compromise of identity that Aramaic-speaking converts experienced can be attributed to a myriad of factors, including lack of economic self-sufficiency, absence of tradition of statehood, lack of a defined area of habitation etc. Rather then the existence of a consolidated Church structure, it was these factors that effectively inhibited the emergence of a Syriac Muslim community. The Arabization of converts in Syria was also facilitated by a historical and long-standing presence of Arabs in the Eastern Mediterranean, even prior to the advent of Islam. The Greek community, akin to the Persians, have historically maintained economic self-sufficiency, as well as a tradition of statehood through the ERE. Therefore, it is flawed to state the lack of a Aramaic/Syriac Muslim community is indicative that Anatolian converts will abandon a Hellenic identity as the circumstances are quite differential and can not be reconciled by referring to a consolidated Church community.
That does not necessarily mean Arabization will not occur, more so that is likely to be a more gradual process. The conquest of the region will mean that Arab garrison towns will be founded, particularly in the face of Christian or Kharijite/Shi'i agitation.
Berber recruitment increased significantly towards the dissolution of the Caliphate of Quruba, little indication exists that this mitigated the ethnic hierarchy of Al-Andalus.
As i said, I think Islamization will come first than a full-fledge Arabization but Islamization itself will include some degrees of Arabization, as the Qu'ran is on Arabic of course. But as said before I can see an Ethno-cultural greek Muslim culture being pushed forward by the Ummayds post-conquest, more if they got kicked out there by an Abbasadid equivalent
not necessarily all the problems that presented themselves in Andalusia , the racism, civil wars and ethnic tension will exist. With Christian kingdoms to the north that are extremely militarized. The biggest difference is that in addition to Spain, it will also occur in Italy and Greece. These are problems that, if left untreated, will cause similar results but on a larger scale.
probably the only way to resolve the tension between the Arabs and the muladis is if the emir of cordoba shoves the acceptance of the muladis into high government positions down the Arabs' throats. Which will result in a arab revolt, but in the long run it will be healthier for al-andalus.
It is a moot discussion because by the 11th and 12th centuries there was enough intermarriage between Arabs, Berbers and Muladis that the distinction between them was beginning to fade and everybody just ended up identifying as Moors or Andalusi Arabs. The issue of racism and Arab superiority was more an issue in the early days of Al-Andalus and certainly contributed to some of their failures in beating back the Christian kingdoms or pushing further into France however.
So if Andalus does survive then eventually the issue of discrimination will lessen and society will become more culturally homogenous.
Well compassion to the copts and syriacs are flawed aside from religion what made their culture ? People in 600 ad didn't identify with the culture of ancient Egypt or Assyria the Romans of Anatolia who would be conquered aside from religion due have a Greco Roman culture that is alive and well I say the Anatolians end up like the Persians convert to Islam but don't become Arabs
this poem I posted earlier is from the 14th century in which muladis speak ill of Arabs, this is just an example of how the relationship did not improve over time. Not only that, but when the Berbers invaded after the fall of al andalus the tension increased between the Berbers and the Muladis. in the period of the taifas, the berbers were seen as barbarian fanatics , by the Maludis who saw themselves as an Islamic nobility
with the Arabs losing importance in relation to the dispute between the muladis and the Berbers. Which makes sense, over time the Arabs are being replaced by muladis.
the ethnic composition of the nation was in that order:
- Andalusians
- Arabs
- Slavs (mercenaries or slaves)
- Berbers (mercenaries or living there)
- Blacks (mercenaries or slaves)
- Christians
- Jews
so it's not given that they will mix and work together.
I don't buy intermarriage in the medieval era being enough to be the primary reason why any ethnic would fade.
Completely different environment but we see alot of inter-marriage and inter-migration between groups of Southern Nigeria. No single identity formed because of that.
Okay, fine. If comparison to Copts and Assyrians is flawed what of the Habasha in Eritrea, Armenians and Georgians.
None of these faced significant conversion. There will be more conversions in Anatolia due to its position and the Arabs that will migrate there but I see them being more like Malabari Muslims, largely descendants of Arab and Persian migrants and local women.
And the Anatolians that I see converting would be groups like the Isurians or Albanians, Hellenized peoples that hadn't adopted a Greek identity, just part of the Greek cultural sphere.
i can respond to this Arab control at first for Georgia was not vassal state and lasted a century armenia went off and on again from the period of the 15th century owndwar I really cant say since I don't know about Caucasus history and the ottoman /Safavid period to make a claim
Constantinople is different to Alexandria, Carthage and Ctesiphon. It is strategically located and is facing the Mediterranean Sea. It is more defensible than either Alexandria or Ctesiphon though Carthage was historically well fortified by this stage it was a shadow of its former self.
I think in history there have been numerous capitals that have been located near frountiers, such as the aforementioned Ctesiphon, the Walls of Constantinople being restored by a Caliph would mean that there is little risk of a Bulgar conquest of the city as the Arabs only came close due to the construction of a large fleet which the Bulgars could neither afford nor have the expertise to man. From this location expansion into Europe can occur and also it is still within range of communication with Arabia and the remnants of the Royal Road can facilitate communications with Persia.
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Plus there is a massive difference once Muslims get Constantinople, their Navy now have a rest site and the rest of the Aegean Side is too fragmented to make any opposition, they would be in a good position to supply it via Sea from Egypt and Tunis. So the City will be Vital for the Caliphate Navy plus the Ports and Shipyards will expand said navy massively.
The Jundist would love to take over the old place of the Roman Aristocracy, several of them Joined the Muslims because hated how the mob of Constantinople drained their provinces from a long time, getting the chance of becoming the new aristocracy of the city of Constantine, they will love to have villas/ribat there. BTW @how that's what the other poster mentioned that the Jund would move north to Constantinople too, as several would love to garrison there for the reason I mentioned
Plus I've to quote myself? WithConstantinople they can control the Aegean now very Easily and expand into Europe, the City have more benefits that drawbacks plus Muslims can build auxiliaries city anyway
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them wanting to is diferent from they going to many military colonist and administrators were prohibited again going back to Alexandria the caliph prevented amr why would the caliph give the seat of a governor especially assuming the siege is the 717 siege that would be to big a power base
as mentioned north this really depends on the bulgars as Constantinople will only really be of help with their navy and as forwarding base until the Bulgars most likely stop them in Thrace
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