I'd watch that
EDIT: Maybe the Benny Hill Theme instead?
Last edited:
REDUX: Place In The Sun: What If Italy Joined The Central Powers?
- Thread starter Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth
- Start date
EDIT: Maybe the Benny Hill Theme instead?
MAN I WANT THAT! Especially as you could have it pan to the Italian and British fleets just in silent horror looking on. Real perfection. Though to my understanding while the italian ships were technically better then either French or Austrian ships it wasn't by much being rather marginal. Though I may be wrong.What? That's too serious, solemn even. We need something more...flamboyant, to show just how plain messed up those classes were.
Offenbach's Galop Infernal, aka the Can Can song? Perfection
"First those bastards tried to freeze and starve us to death, now they are just murdering us. Enough is enough!"
"It is not that simple and you know it. Let's not escalate-"
"May God have mercy upon their souls! Because we shall have none."
"Are you even listening to me!?"
"It is not that simple and you know it. Let's not escalate-"
"May God have mercy upon their souls! Because we shall have none."
"Are you even listening to me!?"
Comment responses and probably an update tomorrow, guys.
Lot of great stuff here (and I might address some interesting stuff from the Discord as well)
Lot of great stuff here (and I might address some interesting stuff from the Discord as well)
Chapter IV- Moving Towards War
CHAPTER IV
Moving Towards War
The convoy ships radioed back within an hour, explaining their plight to the bosses in Naples. No heads rolled: what had happened was bad enough. Having succumbed to a heart attack in the heat of the moment, the Captain received a funeral with honours. Prime Minister Salandra spoke briefly about the "gross insult to our right of passage", enhancing his reputation as a defender of Italy against Perfidious Albion. That, had the convoy obeyed British orders inside its own territorial waters, none of this would have happened, went unsaid.Public anger was immense. Perhaps to compensate for an inglorious history, a strong nationalist current ran through Italian society. People blamed Britain for the winter's deprivations; now they were killing Italian sailors to prevent them from exercising their rights of commerce! Sensationalist papers fuelled the flames with shouts of "Murder on the High Seas!" (1) Protests erupted across the country with particular strength in the north. Nationalist politicians denounced Salandra for his "soft" response, rhetorically asking what Garibaldi would have done. Armed police surrounded Britain's embassy in Rome; non-essential personnel went home for safety.
The Prime Minister was conflicted. A conservative nationalist, his principal concern had always been Italian self-interest. Sacro egoisimo dictated joining whichever side offered the best terms. In a perfect world he would have joined the Entente, striking against the hated Austrians and freeing his kinsmen under Habsburg rule. Yet that would have entailed alignment with the British. Stupidity in London and bellicosity at home left that no longer viable, forcing him to decline an Entente offer of April 1915. (2) Neutrality under the guise of sacro egoisimo, watching and waiting until the war ended, seemed second-best. It would allow him to focus on economic growth and minimise divisions within society. Yet political expediency kept Italy drifting towards the Central Powers; something bound to end in a war he didn't want.
Salandra met with his cabinet the day after the funeral to discuss options. His highly conservative government seethed with rage. Italian vessels had been attacked unprovoked and an Italian citizen killed. Many demanded a formal note of apology from the British Government and the dismissal of the Royal Navy officer who'd opened fire. Others went further- if Great Britain ignored Italian demands, their embassy in Rome should be closed. However, neutralists urged restraint. The insult to Italy was immense, as was popular anger, but both would fade with time. War, as the great powers had discovered, was no small commitment. "If the pain of losing one man to the British is so immense", quipped Giovanni Giolitti, "what will losing ten thousand do?" Giolitti, a four-time Prime Minister with immense political talent, lent credence to the moderates.
Salandra's almond eyes lit up. If Giolitti could stop the nation from blundering into war with Germany, then his support- regardless of their long political rivalry- was welcome. Thanking everyone for their time and advice, he adjourned the meeting with platitudes about defending national honour while not committing to a specific course of action.
Two days later, the Prime Minister's note of protest arrived at the British Embassy. It was, Salandra hoped, a fair compromise: reprimanding Britain without unduly risking war. Yet his Cabinet- and those in London to whom it was circulated- disagreed.
The British took offence. Salandra himself admitted their coal was theirs to export as they saw fit. Who was he to tell Britain what to do with its resources, or how to modify its laws, especially in time of war? The Captain's death was tragic, yes, but he had failed to follow orders legally given inside British territorial waters (and as the autopsy clearly showed, was not directly killed by British fire anyway). HMS Acorn had obeyed standing orders from the Admiralty; however tragic the results were, they weren't something to condemn a good officer over. Whitehall appreciated Salandra's demand for compensation, but in the context of a belligerent note and poor relations, they refused to pay. Asquith decided to make a point; three days after receiving the letter, he ordered Ambassador Rodd and his staff to return home. He intended this as a moderate response to offensive demands which would be hard to retailate against, aside from downgrading the Italian embassy in London. The two countries might be hostile in the near future, but no one would go to war over a recalled ambassador. (4) Many in the Cabinet and on the streets, however, felt snubbed. Salandra had not intended to expel Ambassador Rodd; he'd hoped that the British would meet his demands so normal relations could resume. Asking the British to undo the decisions which had damaged Italy's economy and caused this rupture was, to Salandra, perfectly reasonable. Threatening to expel the Ambassador was meant to give his request "teeth" and appease his nationalistic government.
Britain jumping the gun had widened the gulf without gaining Salandra any political strength.
His moderate plan having failed, Salandra's government turned on him. Many, at the initial meeting two days before he wrote his note of protest, had called for harsh measures against Britain, from economic sanctions to severing diplomatic relations. (Hawks had proposed war) Only support from Giolitti's neutralists had allowed Salandra to respond as he saw fit. On 3 August, the Cabinet assembled once more. When Giolitti declared that "the Prime Minister's gambit, far from having enhanced our image in the world's eye, has reduced it... again", Salandra felt like a specimen under a microscope. These men, the most powerful in Italy, with their networks of patronage and landed estates, were going to rake him over the coals and claim he deserved every minute. Heated discourse became fiery debate and blazing argument, prompting Giolitti to compare it in his memoirs with a boxing tournament, "with every man for himself". Salandra's strength wore out shortly after six PM. He proposed an adjournment and confidence vote tomorrow. Relishing the chance to publicly humiliate their wayward leader, the conservatives heartily agreed. The defeated Prime Minister slouched out of the room last, his eyes moist as he locked the door and went to pray. Tomorrow would be bloody, he told himself, but he would survive it.
Little did he know how things would change by morning.
While not directly involved in the civilian game of politics, General Luigi Cadorna had always remained in the loop. If he was to execute national policy on the battlefield, he had to know the whims and alliances of his political leaders. His sympathy with the Central Powers had led him to press for war in summer 1914, and he'd even made preparations to cross the French border before being recalled. Like all Italian patriots, Britain's recent actions offended him and he hoped to win glory for himself (and the nation as well, he supposed) through war. The Chief of Staff wasn't a Cabinet position and thus he was reliant on Defence Minister Vittorio Zupelli for information. Zupelli had harshly criticised Salandra's "spinelessness" and said far stronger things in private. Both men agreed on the need for increased readiness and an assertive foreign policy. Neither had much use for civilians or, since the cold winter of 1914-15, Great Britain. If any man could get Cadorna's views better aired in the Cabinet, it was Zupelli.
Thus, when Cadorna recieved a late-night invitation to the German Embassy on the third of August, he brought Zupelli with him.
General Konrad Krafft von Dellmensingen gazed out the Embassy window. Rome was, in its own way, beautiful, yet nothing could compare to the soaring mountains and crisp air of his native Bavaria. Still, if all went to plan, he would have mountains aplenty to work in. The clock chimed seven. "Where are they?", he asked the Ambassador.
Hans von Flotow shrugged. "General Cadorna promised to be here at this hour." Both men shook their heads. "Italiener." Fifteen minutes passed by, which von Dellmensingen spent reviewing the files in his briefcase. Finally, a knock came.
"Entreten!", the Ambassador barked, and his secretary led two crisp Italians in. They exchanged salutes with von Dellmensingen as the Ambassador quietly took his leave- this was not a civilian matter, he'd been told.
"Good to see you at last, Herr General." Von Dellmensingen spoke in creaky Italian, a phrasebook discreetly resting on the desk. "And how are things in Rome? My condolences on the recent Entente... actions."
"Things are serious, though not so bad as you may have heard." Cadorna sipped black coffee despite the late hour. "Our economy has found ways to overcome the loss of British coal- thanks in no small part to your help." Von Dellmensingen smiled, noting the almost-pained expression on Cadorna's face. He cannot enjoy admitting dependence on us. "But now Prime Minister Salandra is about to fall, having failed to protect our interests against the inglesi."
"The vote of no confidence is scheduled for tomorrow", Zupelli chimed in. "Unlike General Cadorna, I sit upon the Cabinet and am privy to all that goes on, keeping those I trust in the know."
"I see." In Germany, leaking information from Cabinet meetings was a serious offence- certainly not something to reveal to others, especially not foreigners. Was that really how things worked in this country? "Your government does not object to this?" Just how serious about discipline and security are you? How much will we have to hold your hand for?
"Eh. I am the Defence Minister. If I wish to speak with my fellow soldiers off the record, no harm is done. Besides, in my country, it is the civilians who make policy. Us soldati simply carry it out. If General Cadorna and I had had my way, we would have thrown in against the Entente in the first week of the war. But they told us we were not ready, and so we had to stay neutral." Zupelli grimaced. "Not as if they have given us a single extra lira to get ready since, mind."
"This is not how it is in my country. We have prepared for this fight for thirty years, and my superiors on the General Staff have had much say in shaping wartime policy. There is less... foolishness in the way of getting things done." Cadorna and Zupelli's silent stares asked the obvious question. "And without that system, gentlemen, we would never have driven the French back, or ejected the Russians from Poland. And it is thanks to this national way of war that we will win!" His broad shoulders and arched eyebrows left no doubt that yes, Germany would triumph, and that it would all be thanks to General Konrad Krafft von Dellmensingen. "Now then. You say you are ill-prepared to fight the Entente. What I want to know is: what are you missing?"
Zupelli and Cadorna exchanged glances. "Are you asking us to join your war? I would personally be in favour of such a thing", Cadorna said, "but it is not my place to decide. After Salandra falls tomorrow, his successor must make that decision. And if it is a neutralist like Giolitti, I doubt we will achieve anything."
Von Dellmensingen smiled. "Perhaps this will convince your new Prime Minister, whoever he turns out to be." He handed a number of papers to Zupelli. "Take these to the first meeting of your new Cabinet. You may read the full details yourself, but our diplomatic corps has... worked miracles." Once in a while, the striped-pants civilians could make the job easier. And from what he'd heard, getting these concessions out of Vienna had been like pulling teeth. "The good Emperor Franz Joseph has, out of a desire for wartime unity, offered to hold plebiscites in Trentino and Zadar after the war, on the understanding that Italy will honour its commitments to the Triple Alliance. We would also be partial to Italian annexation of Nice, historic Savoy, and Tunisia from France, concessions from Britain, control of Valona and a protectorate over Albania, possibly with enlarged frontiers" Eyes widened in contemplation of wealth.
"That could solve the political question", Zupelli whispered. "But so much depends on the victor in tomorrow's vote. If we get another nationalist of the Right, he will surely fall for this. If, on the other hand, a neutralist, then..."
Cadorna cut him off. "Then that neutralist will be remembered as the man who cost us Italia irredenta!". He took victory in the plebiscites for granted. "Whatever we have to do, we will make sure this gets into the right hands."
"Ganz gut. Now, let us say your new political leadership sees things our way. How ready are you to make war and how can Germany assist?"
"Well", Zupelli began slowly, "I speak strictly off the record, understand?" Von Dellmengsen nodded. "We lack the degree of organisation found in the German Army. Our bersaglieri are superb but few in number. The average man- a peasant, probably from the south- is scarcely more advanced than in Napoleon's day. Much of the equipment expended against the Turks has yet to be replaced. But we have men in abundance."
"And damn fine officers too!" Cadorna raised a finger, red beneath his snow-white moustache. "I trained those men myself. Our Army is mine per the constitution- not His Majesty's, and certainly not Antonio cazzone Salandra's! I guarantee you that no matter what illiterate fools they may be saddled with, or what equpiment they have to work with, my officers will achieve results. Any who fail will spend the rest of the war carrying wheat on their backs." His glare dared von Dellmensingen to defy him.
"I understand. Fine leaders working with questionable material. You are far from the only ones. Our Entente enemies"- he lowered his voice- "and even our Austrian and Turkish allies all have the same trouble to varying degrees." But not us! All those years of pouring money into the military, keeping the reserves active for years and technology up to date, were paying off. Hence why his country was the senior partner. "Well, we are pressed for manpower ourselves, but I doubt you will require assistance to hold the Alpine front."
"Not just hold it", Cadorna said, "but advance across. First Nice, then Grenoble!"
"I admire your spirit." You fool. If you can defend the front easily so can the French! "Now as you well know, prewar plans called for Italian forces to operate on the River Rhine, tying down enemy forces on the southern extremity of the Western Front. Our successes have naturally moved this line west, but the principle is unchanged. How capable are you of executing this?"
"In 1914 I would have agreed", Cadorna said slowly. "But there would be more practical considerations now. Would, for example, the German Army assume responsibility for supplying an expeditionary force? Given the damage done to our coal reserves by the inglesi, and our commitments nearer our borders, I say it is better for us to concentrate on the Alpine border." Playing your cards close to your chest, von Dellmingsen thought. But Cadorna had a point. And Germany was holding the Western Front fine on its own. Throwing Italians into the stalemate would do little; forcing France to send forces south might.
"The Alpine front it will be, then. I will be in touch with General von Falkenhayn in Berlin for more official negotiations, but unofficially, this is going ahead. We can furnish you with experts in mountain warfare"- he smelled a promotion- "and helpful equipment and training to enhance your fine officer corps."
"If this goes well, victory is ours!" Cadorna gazed off into the distance, as if Nice, Grenoble, and Paris lay just outside the window. "We will have irredenta at last without that fool Salandra!"
"I will take this"- Zupelli tapped the documents- "to the meeting of the new Cabinet. I doubt Salandra's successor, whomever he may be, will replace me." The three men stood up and exchanged salutes. Cadorna was already halfway down the hall when Zupelli turned back. "Herr General , a question if I may." Von Dellmingsen nodded. "You asked to speak with us just today, but before news broke of tomorrow's no-confidence vote. Did you know, somehow, that the government would fall and a new man would arise? For how long have you waited to share this with us?"
Von Dellmingsen shrugged his big shoulders. "You think like a strategist, Defence Minister." His grin was almost predatory. "Good night."
- Not accurate-- more like "Heart Attack In British Territorial Waters!" but one sells better than the other.
- From OTL but ignored because of The Coal Thing.
- Guessing this is somewhere in there. Don't want to peruse the entire text.
- Though recalling ambassadors is a symptom of conditions which easily lead to war, it's seldom a cause of war itself.
Cadorna, you moron. As bad as the Western Front was, the Alps are worse.
Welp. To war, then. Probably the next post.
Welp. To war, then. Probably the next post.
Before we get going, I want to thank @CV12Hornet and co for their discussion of naval matters upthread. This information will act as the base for research which will become important once sparks begin flying!
World War I was never a good time for amphibious ops; conquering Corsica would be out of the question. The Entente will still have an advantage in TTL's Mediterranean war, just not as decisive as in reality.
North Africa is probably going to be a bit anticlimactic. This is 1915 not 1940; Italy and Britain lack the means for months of mobile combat in the desert, while Germany has too much on their plates to ship over an Afrika Korps. The Senussi revolt is still very much a thing, physically separating Egypt from Libya, and none too keen to ally with either side. By the time they're put down the war will be winding down in Europe. As you pointed out, the logistics in west Libya aren't the best, but both sides have far more pressing things to worry about than Tunisia.
Italy is only the exception because of the Triple Alliance, unusually good German diplomacy, and domestic political wrangling.
I have to admit I didn't really like 1.0's Russian Civil War, cliffhanger though it was. I intend to produce a far improved version in Redux.
Thanks for commenting as always guys.
Update after next, the sparks fly.
They are indeed. But there's not much they can do short of establishing favourable trade policies with the Central Powers at British expense. (This is what they did in OTL)
Exactly. It's a nasty dilemma but neutrality is the best of bad options. Few in the Netherlands (or for that matter Sweden) want to throw their countries into the fire, even with their national honour snubbed. Italy would have followed the same course but for the military and political developments in chapter 4.
Corsica especially- it's part of the home country.
That's an interesting (and just) idea, but as you pointed out the United States wouldn't go for it. Neutrals are neutral because it suits them economically and politically; that doesn't translate into any other shared interests or commonalities. That said it's a cool idea, and if I can figure out a way to implement it, even partially, I will.
Great points raised.
World War I was never a good time for amphibious ops; conquering Corsica would be out of the question. The Entente will still have an advantage in TTL's Mediterranean war, just not as decisive as in reality.
North Africa is probably going to be a bit anticlimactic. This is 1915 not 1940; Italy and Britain lack the means for months of mobile combat in the desert, while Germany has too much on their plates to ship over an Afrika Korps. The Senussi revolt is still very much a thing, physically separating Egypt from Libya, and none too keen to ally with either side. By the time they're put down the war will be winding down in Europe. As you pointed out, the logistics in west Libya aren't the best, but both sides have far more pressing things to worry about than Tunisia.
I can't claim to know much about the Dual Monarchy's navy; are you aware of any good naval history websites (or even threads on this site) which cover them?
Yes it was and I confess that's the biggest writer's liberty I take here: German diplomats have sufficient common sense to work with Italy and attract them to the CPs.
Great summary of events, and not much will change from 1.0. The comparison with the Home Fleet/High Seas Fleet is adept.
I can too!
OTL proved that for these countries, damaging and insulting though the blockade was, it wasn't enough to get them in the war. Little will change there ITTL.
Italy is only the exception because of the Triple Alliance, unusually good German diplomacy, and domestic political wrangling.
Thanks; great to be back. No chance of Britain attacking the Dutch in Indonesia; these aren't the Napoleonic Wars.
I have to admit I didn't really like 1.0's Russian Civil War, cliffhanger though it was. I intend to produce a far improved version in Redux.
Great to be back!
I love this response.
Thanks for commenting as always guys.
Update after next, the sparks fly.
In completely honesty the german mountaineers are going to be more specialised manpower rather then for training as the italian alpini were more then capable its just that there weren't many of them. Basically the triumvirate of italian special units of the alpini, Arditi and Bersaglieri formed a pretty formidable worth but in all cases they weren't enough of them or horribly misused. Misuse was a big problem with the arditi. It wasn't really until cardorna was gone and the arditi were more effectively concentrated and given prep then they showed real successes on larger scales. Though talking about cardorna it is very likely he will not politically survive nearly as long as he did otl.
Ladies and gentlemen, the alpine front.
Needless to say, the Italians aren't going very far in the next two years.
Needless to say, the Italians aren't going very far in the next two years.
No, but I do have a summary from an actual history book detailing the problems of the Tegetthoffs. I get a lot of information from knowledgeable people on Discord.
It should be noted that the Tegetthoffs are by far the biggest millstones in the KuK Kriegsmarine. The Austrians otherwise built good ships, and they weren't unskilled at sea, too.
I have to keep reminding myself this is a victory timeline everytime this man speaks.
Same could be said of Foch, Joffre, Haig or Ludendorff. Much of WW1 was about failing your way to victory.
@CV12Hornet, you may have seen this site as well, which I intend to use for the Italians. Could be interesting for you as well if you've not seen it yet.
Handy! But I've got book resources for the Italians.
I should also mention that the above writeup doesn't even cover all the issues. Have some more:
And so it starts. Hopefully things go better for Russia when we come to it once more.
The very sad think, is that he really believe that and for all account the entire system thought that...honestly the Royal officer corps never left the 19th century as attitude.
Regarding the British, well I appreciate their diplomatic boldness in trying to bring Italy in the war at their side while starving their economy, arrogance and stupidity in the same package, very efficient (to quote the always magnificent Londo Mollari).
At the same time the German offer is too good to refuse in the current political climate (but anyone in Rome know that they will probably get only what they effectively conquer), even if I expect that the Austrian will have throw a fit at the idea to giving up Albania due to the strategic position that will give to Italy effective control of the Adriatic.
The Alpine front will be a massacre, the famous quip about needing so few men to protect France against Italy is always misunderstood about the quality of the Italian army, no it's all about how easy is to defend that place (on both side) and for all his bravado, even Cadorna knows that but yes he will die before admit weakness or trouble to anyone. On the other side, the use of ammunition and equipment there by the Entente will probably aggravate the Shell Crisis of 1915.
Unlikely in the extreme. Not only are the Germans focused on them, with Italy committing to the CPs, plenty of Habsburg troops that would otherwise go south would instead go north.