The 1891 Argentine Presidential election:

(Man, laying out all the electors was a pain)
I'm curious, what method did you use to allocate electoral votes? Argentina did not introduce proportional allocation of EVs until the 1983 election, whereas it used the "incomplete list" system (wherein the 1st place finisher gets 2/3 of the votes/seats, and the runner up gets the remainder) for both the EC and its lower house elections after the 1912 electoral reform. I know that Argentina is peripheral topic of this TL, but I've recently been struggling to find the actual apportionment method for my own research.
 
I'm curious, what method did you use to allocate electoral votes? Argentina did not introduce proportional allocation of EVs until the 1983 election, whereas it used the "incomplete list" system (wherein the 1st place finisher gets 2/3 of the votes/seats, and the runner up gets the remainder) for both the EC and its lower house elections after the 1912 electoral reform. I know that Argentina is peripheral topic of this TL, but I've recently been struggling to find the actual apportionment method for my own research.
I'm not sure of the specifics, but in the OTL elections under the Autonomists and even the Radicals up until the coup, the provinces split their electoral votes and electors were free to vote for whomever. I based the results TTL on a composite of the OTL 1892 and 1916 electoral college numbers.
 
on the subject of presidents who died before their time otl, does teddy ever become president? he's apparently president of the bank ittl?
That's Theodore Roosevelt Sr., the father of the better-known Teddy. Actually, he's doing substantially better than IOTL, since he's still alive about 1890 when he died of cancer in 1878.
 
on the subject of presidents who died before their time otl, does teddy ever become president? he's apparently president of the bank ittl?
That's Theodore Roosevelt Sr., the father of the better-known Teddy. Actually, he's doing substantially better than IOTL, since he's still alive about 1890 when he died of cancer in 1878.
Yeah, it's his dad. Theodore Roosevelt Jr., being born well after the POD, doesn't exist, though that's not to say that the Roosevelt family won't be politically involved TTL.
 
Yeah, it's his dad. Theodore Roosevelt Jr., being born well after the POD, doesn't exist, though that's not to say that the Roosevelt family won't be politically involved TTL.
it isn't fair to say everyone iotl born after the pod wouldn't exist, that's lazy, but maybe I'm wrong, do you have any reason why he was never born ittl?
 
it isn't fair to say everyone iotl born after the pod wouldn't exist, that's lazy, but maybe I'm wrong, do you have any reason why he was never born ittl?
It seems to me that this debate on how strict to be with post-POD people comes up all the time no matter what an author decides to do. Personally I follow timelines that both come up with long lists of fictional characters after half a century or so, and others that stick to OTL people unless obviously doesn't make sense for that person to exist. I don't mind either option; the former is probably more realistic, but the latter saves us the readers (not to mention authors) from trying to keep track of who's who, which I imagine could get dauntin rather quickly.

In this case, assuming we're going with the first option, I could see Theodore Roosevelt Sr. still having a child, and still deciding to name him Theodore Roosevelt Jr., even if it isn't *exactly* the same as OTL's Teddy, or even if the mother is someone completely different. Doesn't mean this person will be at all prominent, let alone have the same personality of OTL's TR, but it could still happen.
 
It seems to me that this debate on how strict to be with post-POD people comes up all the time no matter what an author decides to do. Personally I follow timelines that both come up with long lists of fictional characters after half a century or so, and others that stick to OTL people unless obviously doesn't make sense for that person to exist. I don't mind either option; the former is probably more realistic, but the latter saves us the readers (not to mention authors) from trying to keep track of who's who, which I imagine could get dauntin rather quickly.

In this case, assuming we're going with the first option, I could see Theodore Roosevelt Sr. still having a child, and still deciding to name him Theodore Roosevelt Jr., even if it isn't *exactly* the same as OTL's Teddy, or even if the mother is someone completely different. Doesn't mean this person will be at all prominent, let alone have the same personality of OTL's TR, but it could still happen.
if you look at when teddy sr and Martha married, it wouldn't be altered in anyway, chances are we'd have the bull moose we know and love
 
it isn't fair to say everyone iotl born after the pod wouldn't exist, that's lazy, but maybe I'm wrong, do you have any reason why he was never born ittl?
I don't think its lazy, I think it offers more interesting avenues for the TL.
There won't be someone with the exact same genetic makeup as TR because small butterflies will affect fertilization. Thus any child they have will be different.
^This. After a certain amount of time has passed, the butterflies have grown enough that it is supremely unlikely for everyone born OTL to be born TTL as the exact same person.
It seems to me that this debate on how strict to be with post-POD people comes up all the time no matter what an author decides to do. Personally I follow timelines that both come up with long lists of fictional characters after half a century or so, and others that stick to OTL people unless obviously doesn't make sense for that person to exist. I don't mind either option; the former is probably more realistic, but the latter saves us the readers (not to mention authors) from trying to keep track of who's who, which I imagine could get dauntin rather quickly.

In this case, assuming we're going with the first option, I could see Theodore Roosevelt Sr. still having a child, and still deciding to name him Theodore Roosevelt Jr., even if it isn't *exactly* the same as OTL's Teddy, or even if the mother is someone completely different. Doesn't mean this person will be at all prominent, let alone have the same personality of OTL's TR, but it could still happen.
Yeah, there could be a Theodore Roosevelt Jr, but he might not have asthma as a child, for example, or an entirely different personality. The genetics of this person would be different enough that the person would be different from Teddy OTL.
And I'll try to draw parallels in the footnotes between TTL's fictional presidents and OTL to cut down on confusion.
if you look at when teddy sr and Martha married, it wouldn't be altered in anyway, chances are we'd have the bull moose we know and love
Doesn't matter when they married, it matters when TR Jr. was born. He was born in 1858, 18 years after the POD. That's far enough away that the circumstances of his birth are different and the person produced is also different.
 
I don't think its lazy, I think it offers more interesting avenues for the TL.

^This. After a certain amount of time has passed, the butterflies have grown enough that it is supremely unlikely for everyone born OTL to be born TTL as the exact same person.

Yeah, there could be a Theodore Roosevelt Jr, but he might not have asthma as a child, for example, or an entirely different personality. The genetics of this person would be different enough that the person would be different from Teddy OTL.
And I'll try to draw parallels in the footnotes between TTL's fictional presidents and OTL to cut down on confusion.

Doesn't matter when they married, it matters when TR Jr. was born. He was born in 1858, 18 years after the POD. That's far enough away that the circumstances of his birth are different and the person produced is also different.
I disagree, but I see your point, but who knows, it's impossible to truly predict what happens, and I don't think the political changes would affect the lives of the two, but again that's just my opinion
 
I don't think its lazy, I think it offers more interesting avenues for the TL.

^This. After a certain amount of time has passed, the butterflies have grown enough that it is supremely unlikely for everyone born OTL to be born TTL as the exact same person.

Yeah, there could be a Theodore Roosevelt Jr, but he might not have asthma as a child, for example, or an entirely different personality. The genetics of this person would be different enough that the person would be different from Teddy OTL.
And I'll try to draw parallels in the footnotes between TTL's fictional presidents and OTL to cut down on confusion.

Doesn't matter when they married, it matters when TR Jr. was born. He was born in 1858, 18 years after the POD. That's far enough away that the circumstances of his birth are different and the person produced is also different.
How does this also not translate over to more current alternate history timelines like ones where Humphrey or RFK win in '68? We still see current politicians from OTL in politics then. Take the New Deal Coalition Retained timeline for example or A True October Surprise.
 
I disagree, but I see your point, but who knows, it's impossible to truly predict what happens, and I don't think the political changes would affect the lives of the two, but again that's just my opinion
Fair enough.
How does this also not translate over to more current alternate history timelines like ones where Humphrey or RFK win in '68? We still see current politicians from OTL in politics then. Take the New Deal Coalition Retained timeline for example or A True October Surprise.
Different authors have different preferences. My preference for a TL that starts in 1840 is to start introducing fictional characters about 40-50 years in, but that's just my writing style.
 
50. Gathering Clouds
50. Gathering Clouds

“…determined to establish himself as the legitimate President, not merely the acting-President. However, not only did Vice President Stevenson face opposition from members of his cabinet such as Attorney General Cleveland, but he also faced the ire of the Whig congressional majorities. Speaker George D. Robinson and Senate leader James Garfield regarded Stevenson as merely acting-president and were outraged at the Vice President’s efforts to assume the full presidency. The Whigs viewed this as a usurpation and introduced legislation to require that Stevenson be referred to as “acting President” in favor of “President [1].” Stevenson continued to insist that he was the full president and not merely executing the duties of the presidency, and indeed was preparing to take the oath of office when he received word on July 9th that Congress had acted.

By narrow, party-line votes in the House and Senate, the Whigs had forced through a resolution declaring Stevenson acting-President, with one of the resolution’s sponsors, Congressman Coleman Elkins of Virginia, cautioning that “to ignore or disregard this is to usurp the authority of the vacant Presidency and overstep the boundaries set forth by the Constitution.” Faced with Whig opposition and dissent from much of his cabinet, Stevenson reluctantly backed down from assuming the Presidency. Whigs celebrated the victory, but Stevenson’s definition of acting-President was very different from the passive role envisioned by the Whigs and the reformist wing of the cabinet. After settling the succession crisis, he ordered Postmaster General Coke to fire hundreds of Whig employees and replaced them with loyal Democrats [2]. He also demanded the resignation of Attorney General Cleveland and Treasury Secretary Whitney, viewing them as insufficiently loyal to the party.

The “August Massacres” saw thousands of Whigs fired from civil service positions and the cabinet purged of the reformists the slain President Carlisle had surrounded himself with. Stevenson’s firings were decried by the Whigs as overstepping the authority of the acting-President, but, if he could not be President, was determined to be President in everything but name. These bloodless purges came at a cost, however. The Whigs lost any interest in compromising with Stevenson, and his efforts to confirm David B. Hill as Treasury Secretary were flat-out rejected by Garfield, Mahone, and the rest of the Whigs’ Senate leadership. As the economy showed little indication of improvement and the Whigs made “Adlai the Usurper” almost a persona non grata in Washington, both parties looked to 1892 as a chance to finally chart a new direction for the country. Of course, it was far more likely that it would be the Whigs who would have such an opportunity…”

-From WHITE MAN’S NATION: AMERICA 1881-1973 by Kenneth Thurman, published 2003

“President Alem was able to cobble together something of a reunion of the Radical and National wings of the Civic Union to vote the bulk of his agenda through the legislature. An income tax was introduced, a Central Bank was established, agricultural reforms were passed, and industrialization was encouraged [3]. The continued immigration boom fueled the exploitation of coal deposits in Santa Cruz Province, while the beginnings of a domestic processed food industry emerged, taking advantage of the already-existing cattle and grain industries. During the first half of the 1890s, a domestic steel industry also emerged, helped by favorable government policies and the opening of large iron ore mines [4]. A boom occurred in the construction sector as the pace of railroad construction increased considerably.

…Along with the industrial growth and continued flood of Irish and Sicilian immigrants, the naval arms race with Brazil continued unabated. In 1890, the Celman administration contracted with American shipbuilders to custom-build three state-of-the-art battleships of the Rivadavia class, armed with four 12-inch guns in two twin turrets, along with eight 9.2-inch guns in four twin turrets, two on each side of the ship, and President Alem declined to cancel the order upon his election. This was in reaction to the Brazilian government ordering two modern battleships from Armstrong in the United Kingdom. Though Emperor Pedro II attempted to persuade the Argentines that the new battleships were not intended as a challenge, this message was not received, and Buenos Aires would place further orders in 1892 for a class of four fast armored cruisers from companies in the United States, who had expanded capacity as a result of the Americans’ own rapid pace of naval expansion.”

-From ARGENTINA: A MODERN HISTORY by Jessica Harvey, published 2011

“…crown prince, now the young Emperor of Brazil. Pedro III ascended to the throne on February 9th, 1893, three months after the death of his father, the beloved Pedro II. Unlike the parliamentarian Pedro II, the new Emperor was an ultramontane Catholic, which alienated many of the liberals who had so strongly supported his father. however, Pedro III was also a staunch abolitionist, which earned him the fierce opposition of the conservative landowners [5].

To unify the nation and distract from his unpopular combination of beliefs, Pedro III decided to stoke the rivalry with Argentina that had been quietly simmering since the Atacama War in 1881. The army was greatly expanded and supplied with British-made materiel, although the army command retained its suspicion of the Emperor and its Republican leanings continued to fester [6]. Worse, the expansion of the army left Argentina feeling encircled, driving them to approve a modest army reform and expansion protocol of their own. Meanwhile, enormous sums were poured into the Brazilian navy, which quickly became the pride of the nation. Aside from the two Riachuelo class battleships, two more modern Minas Geraes class battleships were also purchased, in response to the 1895 delivery of the first two of Argentina’s three Rivadavia class battleships, which were significantly more powerful than the existing fleet of Brazilian capital warships.

The profligate spending on warships alienated the increasingly populous and powerful Argentina, while placing great strain on Brazilian finances. The export-driven Brazilian economy could sustain such a rate of expansion during prosperous times such as the 1890s, but should international trade be as disrupted as it was at the close of the decade, it would have disastrous effects on Brazil’s ability to finance not only further military expansion, but the upkeep of the army and ships it already had…”

-From ARGENTINA: A MODERN HISTORY by Jessica Harvey, published 2011

“Following the 1885 Panjdeh incident, relations between Great Britain and the Russian Empire soured further. Russia had seized a border fort in Afghanistan, which was tentatively within the British sphere of influence. Sensing a threat to India and obligated by treaty to aid Afghanistan, the British dispatched an expeditionary force that dislodged the Russian occupiers after a brief battle. The affair nearly led to war, but cooler heads prevailed and while Russia backed down, Czar Alexander II was left embarrassed. It didn’t help that the Russo-Afghan border remained poorly defined, and tensions with Britain continued to rise, especially after the death of Alexander II from tuberculosis in 1889…

…the reluctance of Frederick III and Minister-President Leo von Caprivi to seek an accord with Russia served to further convince Czar Nicholas II [7] of Russia’s isolation. He was especially concerned that, rather than tussle over influence in the German Confederation, Prussia and Austria-Hungary had instead drawn closer together due to the economic unity promoted by the Zollverein and the landmark Coinage Treaty. The role of Prussia and Austria-Hungary in brokering peace between Russia and the Ottoman Empire, which had resulted in Russia failing to achieve any of its significant war aims had embittered elements of the Russian political class and the growing closeness between the two powers seemed to bode ill for Russian ambitions in the Balkans. It also didn’t help that, after the Compromise of 1867, Austria-Hungary had reformed itself and federalized [8], helping calm the diverse Empire’s internal divisions.

The Republic of Italy was another nation that was increasingly wary of the Austro-Prussian axis. Rome continued to claim the Italian-majority provinces of Austria-Hungary (Lombardy and Venetia) and saw the growing unity of the German Confederation as a threat to the completion of Risorgimento. As a result, Consul Giuseppe Zandarelli drew his country even closer to its traditional ally of France. French President Emile Combes, a member of the Radical Left [9], had inherited upon his election growing tensions with Prussia over the two countries’ conflicting claims in Cameroon. Both French and Prussian entrepreneurs had established trading posts in the region, the French along the east coast of the Gulf of Guinea in Brazzaville and Libreville, and the Prussians in Duala on the Cameroon coast. As the two powers explored and claimed the African interior via patchworks of local protectorates, they ran into conflict in the lands north of Duala. The French had expanded their holdings rapidly between 1880 and 1890, while the Prussians and other German firms focused on establishing a handful of profitable plantations in the vicinity of Duala. In 1891, however, the Deutsches Kamerunische Gesellschaft (German Cameroon Corporation) began to take a more aggressive course. The commander of the Prussian troops in the area, Hermann Wissmann, began expanding into the interior and concluding treaties with native chieftains. His signing of a treaty with the local Yaunde people to establish a trading post and military garrison, named Jaunde Station.

The French in Brazzaville remained unworried by the DKG, until they began expanding towards the Congo River, seeking greater access to the river for ease of commerce [10]. One of Wissmann’s expeditions took the Prussians along the Ubangi River to Bangi, just south of rapids that marked the end of navigable river. This land was unclaimed by the French, but Wissmann’s establishment of a DKG trading outpost and garrison threatened their ambitions of dominating trade in the region, and French imperialists worried that Prussians in Bangi posed a military threat to French outposts downriver. Tensions were heightened when a French expedition, unaware of the DKG outpost, stumbled upon it. Although this misunderstanding was settled quickly, it was inflated into a diplomatic crisis in Berlin and Paris, not helped by Combes’ Foreign Minister, Theophile Delcasse. Caprivi protested that the DKG had a right to free trade and that Wissmann had gotten there first and refused to recall him.

The French refused to withdraw, and as a result conference of the Great Powers was called in London. The London Congress established the Congo and Ubangi Rivers as free navigation zones, after which the Prussians and the rest of the Confederation agreed to withdraw and cede Bangi to the French [11]. Though it had ended in a partial victory for Paris, a significant number of politicians were angry with Prussia for standing in the way of French expansion, and many imperialists were furious that Prussian intransigence had meant that the Congo River was now a free trade zone, no longer dominated by French outposts [12]. As a result, Delcasse pursued closer relations with Russia, itself facing tension with the member-states of the German Confederation. In 1892, France established a military alliance with Russia, known as the Dual Entente. Just nine months prior, Arthur Balfour, the British Prime Minister who had helped broker the London Congress, was defeated by Lord Rosebery [13] and a resurgent Liberal Party. Rosebery, after a colonial dispute with the French over suzerainty over the Sokoto Caliphate, was disinclined to continue Balfour’s attempts at rapprochement. The alliance with Russia was added cause for concern, as tensions still existed between London and Petrograd over Afghanistan and the still poorly defined central Asian borders.”

-From THE GRAND CONSENSUS: EUROPE 1815-1898 by Rebecca Gardner, published 2001

“…muted criticism from the Democrats, neither Carlisle nor House Democrats had taken any steps to reign in naval spending, and despite the economic downturn, Stevenson approved another round of naval expansion in late 1891. The Whigs, especially those from states and districts where shipbuilding was an important sector of the local economy, saw a second round of ship construction as an opportunity to provide jobs for workers left unemployed by the Panic of 1890. While the Blaine administration had seen six battleships of two classes laid down, these six ships of the Louisiana and New York classes were already lagging behind the new battleships of the British navy. When Argentina placed orders at Cramp & Sons for three modern battleships, even many Democrats agreed that the United States had to catch up.

Part of the reason that even many fiscally conservative Democrats came to support increased naval spending was that Blaine, a Whig, had essentially outflanked the Democrats in his Anglophobia, and the Democrats felt that they had to match this in order to win back Irish Catholic voters. Thus, a bipartisan group of Congressmen led by Coleman B. Elkins proposed the Navy Act of 1891, which funded the construction of two Illinois class and three Jefferson class battleships, along with seven New Orleans class protected cruisers and a dozen modern destroyers. These two classes were broadly similar, with four 13.5-inch [14] guns in two twin turrets, but these guns were more advanced than the previous 13.5-inch guns that were mounted in the preceding Louisianas and New Yorks, having a higher shell velocity. 16-inch guns had been proposed, but the US lacked the manufacturing capability to make such barrels. The Illinois class was notable for a top speed of 18 knots, reachable due to thinner armor than the slower but better-protected Jefferson class. Ships such as these began to worry the British government and it was only under the second Balfour ministry in 1895 that the admiralty would begin to respond…”

-From A HISTORY OF AMERICAN POWER AT SEA by Edgar Willis, published 1974

[1] The Whigs attempted this OTL after W.H. Harrison died.
[2] Stevenson did this himself OTL when he was Cleveland’s Postmaster General.
[3] All reforms that were attempted but failed under Yrigoyen OTL, are here approved decades ahead of schedule. The agricultural reforms in particular will help Argentina remain prosperous even when demand for beef/grain/wool declines.
[4] This will also help Argentina diversify and industrialize, without the issues of Peronism.
[5] This describes Pedro II’s OTL daughter Isabel.
[6] Foreshadowing…
[7] Alexander’s son Nicholas, who died in 1865 IOTL of some sort of meningitis.
[8] All in all, a more centralized A-H. With Maximilian I as Emperor, a federa system is adopted to give representation to all ethnic groups, not just the big two. There are a few Hungarian noble rebellions, but nothing major.
[9] Comparatively speaking, as they are not socialists, though they do often work with the Socialist groupings in parliament.
[10] One reason for Germany getting New Kamerun during the Agadir Crisis OTL. TTL, with no Berlin conference and a slower French colonial expansion, the DKG goes for it.
[11] Similar to OTL, except without any Congo Free State to go with it, for better or worse.
[12] Do I smell rising tensions? I think I do.
[13] Rosebery doesn’t have the best go of it, and he resigns in 1895 after failing to secure funding for more battleships to keep Britain ahead of the rapidly expanding American fleet.
[14] OTL, the USN stuck to 12-inch guns after building the first nine of their modern battleships. TTL, after making improvements to the 13.5-inch design (just slightly bigger than the OTL 13-inch guns), the USN sticks with the larger caliber.
 
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