Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

[TheKutKu]

From Napoléon et la Catalogne : 1808-1814 : la captivité de Barcelone (février 1808-janvier 1810)

In the 2 years leading to the peninsular war (1806-1808), Napoléon repeatedly expressed wanting to annex the Marca Hispanica, all the lands between the Pyrenees and the Ebro into France, from what I get it was a hidden intent behind the Treaty of Fontainebleau: Give Portugal to Spain in exchange for north-eastern spain, it seems the division of Portugal in that treaty
was partially determined so that it would be an equal compensation population-wise with the Loss of "19/20 of Catalonia, 4/9 of Aragon, Navarre, Biscay, Guipuzcoa and Alava"

Napoleon apparently kept this idea up until the Aranjuez revolt, and the IRL occupation then annexation of Barcelona was based on plans and preparation made for the annexation of the whole of the Marca Hispanica

 

[James the AH Fan]

I compiled all of what we know about Napoleon's pre-1812 war plans, but not limited to:

1. France annexing the Hispanic March in exchange for Spain annexing Portugal
2. Spain annexing Gibraltar as per Fontainebleau
3. Prussia being partitioned between the Rhine, Sweden, Poland, and Russia
4. Poland annexing Galicia in exchange for Austria annexing Silesia
5. France annexing either Albania, Morea, or Egypt in the event Russia chose to annex Moldavia and Wallachia. I gave Morea to France for geopolitical reasons, as they annexed the Ionian Islands in 1807 and it would make more sense to have a stronger foothold in the Eastern Mediterranean.
6. Naples and Sicily joining the Kingdom of Italy

 

[TheKutKu]

I compiled all of what we know about Napoleon's pre-1812 war plans, but not limited to:

1. France annexing the Hispanic March in exchange for Spain annexing Portugal
2. Spain annexing Gibraltar as per Fontainebleau
3. Prussia being partitioned between the Rhine, Sweden, Poland, and Russia
4. Poland annexing Galicia in exchange for Austria annexing Silesia
5. France annexing either Albania, Morea, or Egypt in the event Russia chose to annex Moldavia and Wallachia. I gave France Morea because for geopolitical reasons, as they annexed the Ionian Islands in 1807 and it would make more sense to have a stronger foothold in the Eastern Mediterranean.
6. Naples and Sicily joining the Kingdom of Italy

View attachment 744495

Nice

Does anyone have any idea what the Departements of the Naples Republic (1799) looked like??? I can find a list of them with a rough geographic description (p55-56; english translations exist) but I could only ever find a map of only one of its departement...

I feel like if Naples was integrated in the kingdom of Italy it would be re-departementalised

 

[WheelyWheelyLegsNoFeely]

I compiled all of what we know about Napoleon's pre-1812 war plans, but not limited to:

1. France annexing the Hispanic March in exchange for Spain annexing Portugal
2. Spain annexing Gibraltar as per Fontainebleau
3. Prussia being partitioned between the Rhine, Sweden, Poland, and Russia
4. Poland annexing Galicia in exchange for Austria annexing Silesia
5. France annexing either Albania, Morea, or Egypt in the event Russia chose to annex Moldavia and Wallachia. I gave France Morea because for geopolitical reasons, as they annexed the Ionian Islands in 1807 and it would make more sense to have a stronger foothold in the Eastern Mediterranean.
6. Naples and Sicily joining the Kingdom of Italy

View attachment 744495

Here's my attempt at making a WorldA patch.

 

[oofo]

snip

It seems Napoleon reverted to a similar scheme in 1809-1810 after making Joseph King of Spain failed to pan out, but with some additional territories being annexed as well.

From "La América española y Napoleón en el Estatuto de Bayona" byJuan C. Domínguez Nafría (link to full paper)

Este fracaso del imperio familiar también hizo que Napoleón volviera a la primitiva idea del desmembramiento de España. En dicho sentido, el conde de La Forest escribió en los términos siguientes al duque de Cadore: He aquí las intenciones secretas del Emperador: tomará de España lo que le convenga, bien sea todo el curso del Ebro o el puente de El Ferrol. El pueblo español, por su conducta, no merece ninguna consideración…, pero Andalucía, la provincia de Valencia, La Mancha y Extremadura, están muy alejadas de Francia para convenir al Emperador. Existe por tanto una población de cinco o seis millones de habitantes con los que el Emperador quiere constituir una provincia de segundo orden.(99)

Posteriormente, un decreto imperial de 8 de febrero de 1810, creó cuatro gobiernos militares –Cataluña, Aragón, Navarra y Vizcaya– cuyos generales debían constituir una administración separada, con plena autoridad civil y militar, dependientes sólo de Berthier, que era en aquel momento jefe del estado mayor del ejército en España. Otro decreto imperial de 29 de mayo de 1810, amplió esta administración independiente a dos nuevos gobiernos militares en el centro de la península: Burgos y Valladolid-Palencia-Toro. Se sucedieron las negociaciones diplomáticas, los compromisos, las quejas y las amenazas de renuncia al trono de José, pero la legislación imperial confiscatoria de los territorios españoles y las actuaciones de los mariscales de Napoleón –auténticos virreyes del emperador inobedientes al rey– será inflexible.

Cuando el 3 de septiembre de 1810, Azanza y Almenara se encontraban en París como embajadores extraordinarios del rey José, Champagne, duque de Cadore, les presentó el plan definitivo. Se trataba otra vez del viejo proyecto de que España cambiase Portugal por las provincias al norte del Ebro. Esta vez con el argumento de que, como Portugal contaba con más de tres millones de habitantes y estas provincias españolas apenas contaban con dos millones, había que entregar a Francia, además, la mitad de las provincias de Soria, Burgos y Valladolid, y dos tercios de Zamora, hasta el límite con Portugal. Un plan que, naturalmente, no aceptaron.(100)

99. ARTOLA. Los afrancesados; pág. 167.
100. MERCADER RIBA, Juan. José Bonaparte rey de España 1808-1813. Historia externa del reinado, Madrid, CSIC, 1971; págs. 155-199.

Bolded text is the relevant areas. Included the citations from the paper in case anyone wants to look into it further, particularly the second one (100) since it isn't a direct quote and its latter (and more interesting) half seems more vague. Text is from pages 29 to 30.

Both vaguely mention annexing considerable territory beyond the Ebro ( El Ferrol, parts of Soria, Burgos, Valladoid and Zamora)

As a further part of this plan at the end of 1809 he also shifted to supporting the independence of Spain's American colonies (See pages 25-29 of the document).

Not directly related, but during the negotiations at Tilsit with Prussia (1807), Napoleon seems to have originally envisioned giving Jérôme Prussian Silesia (maybe because his Corps had conquered it?). In the final deal he ended up getting Westphalia instead.

Napoleon's goals constantly shifted depending on his geopolitical position, but stuff like this is good inspiration.

 

[James the AH Fan]

Both vaguely mention annexing considerable territory beyond the Ebro ( El Ferrol, parts of Soria, Burgos, Valladoid and Zamora)

Okay, I just had to look up where these provinces are, and what Napoleon wanted looks like France was a liquid and it just tipped over and spilled into Spain.

 

[TheKutKu]

It seems Napoleon reverted to a similar scheme in 1809-1810 after making Joseph King of Spain failed to pan out, but with some additional territories being annexed as well.

From "La América española y Napoleón en el Estatuto de Bayona" byJuan C. Domínguez Nafría (link to full paper)

Bolded text is the relevant areas. Included the citations from the paper in case anyone wants to look into it further, particularly the second one (100) since it isn't a direct quote and its latter (and more interesting) half seems more vague. Text is from pages 29 to 30.

Both vaguely mention annexing considerable territory beyond the Ebro ( El Ferrol, parts of Soria, Burgos, Valladoid and Zamora)

As a further part of this plan at the end of 1809 he also shifted to supporting the independence of Spain's American colonies (See pages 25-29 of the document).

Not directly related, but during the negotiations at Tilsit with Prussia (1807), Napoleon seems to have originally envisioned giving Jérôme Prussian Silesia (maybe because his Corps had conquered it?). In the final deal he ended up getting Westphalia instead.

Napoleon's goals constantly shifted depending on his geopolitical position, but stuff like this is good inspiration.

Thanks
That proposition is interesting, from what I get it wouldn't include most of Gallicia, Astures or Northern leon (maybe Cantabria too? not sure what those provinces the text talks about are), they would be awkwardly linked to Castille only through Portugal..

Anyway while we're onto napoleonic proposals

1) There were two crisis in 1802 and 1808 between France and Algiers over Piracy (such that would lead to the barbary wars); on July 28 1808 an official report written after a governmental inquiry by Jeanbon Saint-André, the old consul of France in Algeria and then governor of Cisrhenian departements over the course of action to follow concluded that a Naval attack on Algiers would be useless because of new fortification, and it strongly advocated for a "Boots on the ground" intervention to take Algiers "to be accomplished in 8 days".

"
In 1808, Algiers returned to the forefront of the scene. Thus, on February 2, Napoleon wrote to Champigny, his minister of foreign relations:
"Monsieur de Champagny, I give orders to the minister of the navy to dispatch a brig from Toulon to Algiers. You will send him your dispatches for Sieur Dubois-Thainville, to whom you will give the order that if, 48 hours after the request he will have made, the dey does not return the Genoese, Corsican and Italian slaves, in accordance with our treaties, he will have to leave Algiers and make it known to the dey that I am declaring war on him." ""
These threats were reminiscent of the crisis of 1802 and the ultimatum (with threats unrelated to the real preparations of the moment) of July 27 of that year: "If you refuse to give me satisfaction, and if you do not repress the licentiousness of your ministers who dare to insult my agents, and of your ships who dare to insult my flag, I will land 80,000 men on your coasts, and I will destroy your regency.""


2) It seems that there were 2 additional scenarios for the joint Franco-Russian partition of the ottoman empire that appeared during discussions between Caulaincourt, Nikolay Rumyantsev and Alexander I that followed the February 2 1808 letter from Napoleon to Alexander about a joint attack on the ottoman empire and that led to the Congress of Erfurt

"Dismentlement if both Russia and Austria participated to the Indies expedition"
France: Albania, Candia (Crete), Morea
Russia: Wallachia, Moldova, Bulgaria
Austria: "Turkish croatia" and Bosnia (France reserved the right to claim parts of them)
Independent Serbia led by an austrian archduke

"Wider dismantlement of the Ottoman empire":

France: Albania, Candia (Crete), Morea, All Aegean islands, Cyprus, Rhodes, Echelles du levant, Syria, Egypt, and an open military road from France to the Levant through russia and Austria.
Russia: Wallachia, Moldova, Bulgaria, Parts of Rumelia, Bulgaria
Austria: "Turkish croatia" and Bosnia (France reserved the right to claim parts of them), Serbia, Macedonia with an Aegean coast

 

[WheelyWheelyLegsNoFeely]

While we're on the topic of the French Revolution, this wasn't quite Napoleonic but during the French Directory, there were proposals for an independent Ireland led by the Stuart claimant:

Despite their general anti-clericalism and hostility to the Bourbon monarchy, the French Directory suggested to the United Irishmen in 1798 restoring the Jacobite Pretender, Henry Benedict Stuart, as Henry IX, King of the Irish. This was on account of General Jean Joseph Amable Humbert landing a force in County Mayo for the Irish Rebellion of 1798 and realising the local population were devoutly Catholic (a significant number of Irish priests supported the Rising and had met with Humbert, although Humbert's Army had been veterans of the anti-clerical campaign in Italy). The French Directory hoped this option would allow the creation of a stable French client state in Ireland, however, Wolfe Tone, the Protestant republican leader, scoffed at the suggestion and it was quashed.

Obviously the fact that the Irish Rebellion and French expedition failed also put a bit of a dent in these plans, but it's another interesting piece of history that I haven't really seen get used before.

 

[James the AH Fan]

France: Albania, Candia (Crete), Morea, All Aegean islands, Cyprus, Rhodes, Echelles du levant, Syria, Egypt, and an open military road from France to the Levant through Russia and Austria.

This gets crazier and crazier as we go deeper in the rabbit-hole

 

[WheelyWheelyLegsNoFeely]

This gets crazier and crazier as we go deeper in the rabbit-hole

Someone's going to have to make a composite Napoleonic victory map with all of these claims, like the ones in the thread for the Central Powers and Axis victories.

 

[TheKutKu]

Someone's going to have to make a composite Napoleonic victory map with all of these claims, like the ones in the thread for the Central Powers and Axis victories.

You can make ridiculous maps with all of Napoleon's claims and proposals... such as that one quote where he wanted to create a new religion, "write a new coran" and set off to be crowned emperor of the indies, before turning back and "attacking europe from the rear"

 

[thomas05t]

Thanks
That proposition is interesting, from what I get it wouldn't include most of Gallicia, Astures or Northern leon (maybe Cantabria too? not sure what those provinces the text talks about are), they would be awkwardly linked to Castille only through Portugal..

Anyway while we're onto napoleonic proposals

1) There were two crisis in 1802 and 1808 between France and Algiers over Piracy (such that would lead to the barbary wars); on July 28 1808 an official report written after a governmental inquiry by Jeanbon Saint-André, the old consul of France in Algeria and then governor of Cisrhenian departements over the course of action to follow concluded that a Naval attack on Algiers would be useless because of new fortification, and it strongly advocated for a "Boots on the ground" intervention to take Algiers "to be accomplished in 8 days".

"
In 1808, Algiers returned to the forefront of the scene. Thus, on February 2, Napoleon wrote to Champigny, his minister of foreign relations:
"Monsieur de Champagny, I give orders to the minister of the navy to dispatch a brig from Toulon to Algiers. You will send him your dispatches for Sieur Dubois-Thainville, to whom you will give the order that if, 48 hours after the request he will have made, the dey does not return the Genoese, Corsican and Italian slaves, in accordance with our treaties, he will have to leave Algiers and make it known to the dey that I am declaring war on him." ""
These threats were reminiscent of the crisis of 1802 and the ultimatum (with threats unrelated to the real preparations of the moment) of July 27 of that year: "If you refuse to give me satisfaction, and if you do not repress the licentiousness of your ministers who dare to insult my agents, and of your ships who dare to insult my flag, I will land 80,000 men on your coasts, and I will destroy your regency.""


2) It seems that there were 2 additional scenarios for the joint Franco-Russian partition of the ottoman empire that appeared during discussions between Caulaincourt, Nikolay Rumyantsev and Alexander I that followed the February 2 1808 letter from Napoleon to Alexander about a joint attack on the ottoman empire and that led to the Congress of Erfurt

"Dismentlement if both Russia and Austria participated to the Indies expedition"
France: Albania, Candia (Crete), Morea
Russia: Wallachia, Moldova, Bulgaria
Austria: "Turkish croatia" and Bosnia (France reserved the right to claim parts of them)
Independent Serbia led by an austrian archduke

"Wider dismantlement of the Ottoman empire":

France: Albania, Candia (Crete), Morea, All Aegean islands, Cyprus, Rhodes, Echelles du levant, Syria, Egypt, and an open military road from France to the Levant through russia and Austria.
Russia: Wallachia, Moldova, Bulgaria, Parts of Rumelia, Bulgaria
Austria: "Turkish croatia" and Bosnia (France reserved the right to claim parts of them), Serbia, Macedonia with an Aegean coast

Where could I find the full version of this map?

 

[xmoose]

1) There were two crisis in 1802 and 1808 between France and Algiers over Piracy (such that would lead to the barbary wars); on July 28 1808 an official report written after a governmental inquiry by Jeanbon Saint-André, the old consul of France in Algeria and then governor of Cisrhenian departements over the course of action to follow concluded that a Naval attack on Algiers would be useless because of new fortification, and it strongly advocated for a "Boots on the ground" intervention to take Algiers "to be accomplished in 8 days".

"
In 1808, Algiers returned to the forefront of the scene. Thus, on February 2, Napoleon wrote to Champigny, his minister of foreign relations:
"Monsieur de Champagny, I give orders to the minister of the navy to dispatch a brig from Toulon to Algiers. You will send him your dispatches for Sieur Dubois-Thainville, to whom you will give the order that if, 48 hours after the request he will have made, the dey does not return the Genoese, Corsican and Italian slaves, in accordance with our treaties, he will have to leave Algiers and make it known to the dey that I am declaring war on him." ""
These threats were reminiscent of the crisis of 1802 and the ultimatum (with threats unrelated to the real preparations of the moment) of July 27 of that year: "If you refuse to give me satisfaction, and if you do not repress the licentiousness of your ministers who dare to insult my agents, and of your ships who dare to insult my flag, I will land 80,000 men on your coasts, and I will destroy your regency.""

Weren´t there plans or at least speculation for using Algiers as first step for new invasion in Egypt? (I think I read something like that in Albert Manfreds Napoleon)

 

[TheKutKu]

Where could I find the full version of this map?

Spoiler

It's from Hisatlas

 

[NeonHydroxide]

The 1932 Atlas of the Historical Geography of the United States has lot of great maps on alternative proposals for the boundaries of the United States at various points.

(Adams-Onis treaty variations, as a sample)

Colonial land grants to 1732
Detail of colonial land grant to 1732 in the Northeast
Colonial boundary disputes in the Northeast
VA-MD, OH-MI, and MO-IA disputes
VA-TN, LA-MS, and IL-WI disputes
NC-SC, SC-GA, and MD-PA disputes
MI-WI and OK-TX disputes
AmRev peace proposals, 1779
AmRev peace proposals, Maine detail
Maine boundary dispute
Alternative proposed boundaries for the Adams-Onis treaty
Various claims on the Pacific coast to 1842
Alternative proposed boundaries for the Treaty of Guadeloupe-Hidalgo
Alaska-Canadian boundary dispute

 

[Iserlohn]

I stumbled across a fun bit of discourse about southern Thuringia that still is being felt today. In 1920 the Free State of Coburg, formerly half of the Duchy of Sachsen-Coburg, famously voted to join Bavaria instead of joining the nascant State of Thuringia. But there's way more to this!

1) Coburg also sent an offer to ascede to Prussia, however Prussia refused this. Ultimately Coburg only did a plebiscite on the issue of joining Bavaria, which passed.
2) While Sachsen-Coburg, Sachsen-Altenburg, Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach, the People's State of Reuß, Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt, and Schwarzburg-Sondershausen all were enthusiatic about merging into Thuringia, Sachsen-Meiningen was just as unenthusiastic as the Free State of Coburg.
3) Just like Coburg, Sachsen-Meiningen also expressed interest in joining Prussia rather than Thuringia, though the local government also stated that they would join Thuringia, if Prussia's possessions in the area (the Regierungsbezirk Erfurt) also joined the state. Prussia refused, just like it did with Coburg. There was no plebiscite, this was purely a parliamentary affair.
4) Meiningen was very much divided on the idea of maybe joining Bavaria, with towns like Bad Liebenstein & Bad Salzungen being pro-Bavaria around 1920, while cities like Saalfeld & Sonneberg were more pro-Thuringia.
5) Concessions were made by Thuringia to maintain large parts of Meiningen's administration and to respect local Franconian customs, ultimately leading to Sachsen-Meiningen joining Thuringia.
5) In 1923 an initiative called "Los von Thüringen" (roughly: Away from Thuringia) was founded, which proposed that the former lands of Sachsen-Meiningen should leave Thuringia to join Bavaria, but this movement fizzled out by the early 1930s.
6) In the 2010s there were murmors that the county of Sonneberg, which in 1920 was pro-Thuringia (though according to the sources I could access, this was mostly championed by merchants and maybe not the populace at large?), wanted to join Bavaria, however a referendum planned for 2017 didn't take place.

So yeah, if you look at the situation, Sachsen-Meiningen could easily have made an offer to join Bavaria, in whole or in part (and there likely the one part of the free state that would've voted to join Thuringia by a wide margin would've been only the Landkreis Saalfeld, shown in red). The exclave of Ostheim, formerly part of Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach, would've still likely been an exclave of Thuringia in Bavaria.

EDIT: I included a couple of links to maps over at Wikipedia for easier visualization.

 

[Wendell]

The 1932 Atlas of the Historical Geography of the United States has lot of great maps on alternative proposals for the boundaries of the United States at various points.

(Adams-Onis treaty variations, as a sample)

Colonial land grants to 1732
Detail of colonial land grant to 1732 in the Northeast
Colonial boundary disputes in the Northeast
VA-MD, OH-MI, and MO-IA disputes
VA-TN, LA-MS, and IL-WI disputes
NC-SC, SC-GA, and MD-PA disputes
MI-WI and OK-TX disputes
AmRev peace proposals, 1779
AmRev peace proposals, Maine detail
Maine boundary dispute
Alternative proposed boundaries for the Adams-Onis treaty
Various claims on the Pacific coast to 1842
Alternative proposed boundaries for the Treaty of Guadeloupe-Hidalgo
Alaska-Canadian boundary dispute

It would have been interesting if Adams had pushed for and achieved the Rio Grande border.

 

[James the AH Fan]

The madlad Totentanz0 is back, and this time with lots of B L U E

 

[TheKutKu]

The madlad Totentanz0 is back, and this time with lots of B L U E
View attachment 745882

Beautiful
>Napoleon wanted to create Israel and supported the Saudis
Amazing

 

[Faeelin]

I compiled all of what we know about Napoleon's pre-1812 war plans, but not limited to:

1. France annexing the Hispanic March in exchange for Spain annexing Portugal
2. Spain annexing Gibraltar as per Fontainebleau
3. Prussia being partitioned between the Rhine, Sweden, Poland, and Russia
4. Poland annexing Galicia in exchange for Austria annexing Silesia
5. France annexing either Albania, Morea, or Egypt in the event Russia chose to annex Moldavia and Wallachia. I gave Morea to France for geopolitical reasons, as they annexed the Ionian Islands in 1807 and it would make more sense to have a stronger foothold in the Eastern Mediterranean.
6. Naples and Sicily joining the Kingdom of Italy

View attachment 744495

What's the cite for the Prussian partition and Italy annexing Naples?