The Germans have just sunk a major warship at sea and underway. That is going to be a major shock to the worlds navies and as said earlier, likely to ensure the RNAS will never be allowed to fall into RAF hands post war, the RN simply can't afford to not have the capability after that glimpse of the future of naval warfare.
A Better Rifle at Halloween
- Thread starter diesal
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Fair enough.
Not questioning their range, just the timing of their arrival if they were after the ships. Particularly two flying in formation. Multi-zeppelin raids were launched IOTL but they did not fly in formation, often they would be miles apart by the time they crossed the channel.
When trying to bomb London after almost a year of bombing experience several zeppelins ended up hitting the wrong city. To quote Wikipedia:
"Weather and night flying made airship navigation and accurate bombing difficult. Bombs were often dropped miles off target (a raid on London hit Hull) and hitting military installations was a matter of luck."
Or https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/zeppelin_airship:
"Early attempts to use airships as tactical weapons were unsuccessful since they were inaccurate and exposed to artillery and small arms fire from the ground, which caused some losses."
So, we have two airships working to attack a beach head, and managing to not only detect a target of opportunity in the dark very close to their original target, but coordinate to accurately bomb a target the size of a ship when they regularly hit the wrong city IOTL. Then they manage to follow the course of a moving target close enough that the ship is only saved by evasive action.
As I said, I love the idea, but Zeppelins were strategic bombing weapons in their infancy. This is using them for a tactical role that was difficult even in WW2. For all that Bomber command is criticized for it inaccuracy in WW2 zeppelins had comparable or worse accuracy flying much lower and slower in WW1.
Ramontxo
Donor
I assume that bombing the wrong city is a case of (typical) bad navigation and target identification. A shorter trip to a beachhead, maybe following the coast from a distance until they reach it, may solve the navigation problem. And of course an armoured cruiser is instantly identified as a target.
E.T.A. that I quite understand your misgivings as this is indeed an revolutionary moment
E.T.A. that I quite understand your misgivings as this is indeed an revolutionary moment
Hitting ships with level bombing was incredibly rare in WW2 ( which is why torpedo , dive and skip bombing got used ) , hitting two ships, one moving, with only 2 Zeppelins, using primitive, even for WW1, equipment whilst having no experience is, to be frank, ASB levels of luck. Add in that its at night and even ASB's start laughing.
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
I have to say I agree with this analysis, although arguing about a German success in a Brit-wank scenario is very weird.
I was thinking similar. I enjoy the story and can stomach a bit of handwaving/rule of cool for both sides in pursuit of such
Twenty five years later Defiants had at least one early daytime success before becoming Luftwaffe target practice. Beginner's luck does happen.
Think of the consequences of a single lucky hit. Germany thinks Zeppelins are the ultimate anti shipping weapon, and Britain worries the might be and makes plans to counter them, RNAF developments are useful even if not in the intended role the light weapons are also useful against torpedo boats (and not that much fun for destroyers).
In contrast, the extra Zeppelins are pretty much an expensive waste of effort as accuracy is poor unless close, in which case the 37 and 47mm guns rip them up.
The diversion of effort pays off OK for Britain (especially later on) but the Germans get only a few month of British caution and little else.
For me while a bit lucky, it isn't completely out there unless it's repeated too often.
Well, as mentioned, this is not just about German performance. This kind of attack is likely to lead to an improvement in the funding for the RNAS, for the cost of only a single obsolete cruiser.
That said, I am certainly willing to overlook it, as the story is plenty good enough to support a few liberties.
One Zeppelin getting lucky and hitting one of the ships could be taken as a very, very unlikely fluke , its the two out of two that pushes it to ASB territory.
I will rewrite the section to take away the hits on the ship underway. It makes no real difference to how the story is going.
Bombing at 3000 feet into spotlights. A thousand yards seems decent range for anything heavier than a pistol round.
Very difficult to do much damage to a lighter than air vessel with rifle calibre ammunition. It's a big target with only a few really vulnerable bits. If you hit the envelope most of the time you are just going to let some gas out. If of course you are able to set the gas on fire.
A thousand yards at high elevation is a really difficult shot. I have no idea of what my sight settings would be with a 303 round and I have some experience with that calibre at long range......
I have been wondering abut this - how slow can the Zep be in controlled flight? Can it not be nearly hovering over the stopped cruiser? Still not an easy bomb drop in 1914, but quite possible to get lucky if it is just stemming the wind and sitting right above the ship (and out of angle for any guns) to drop its primitive bombs. ???
If an ASB gets bored maybe, otherwise no. Zepplins were not known for agility and by this time they have already had 4 shot down. There are also not many of them around in September 1914, I think there are only 5 in active service with 2 being on the Eastern front/Baltic.
Near Lens
14th September 19114, Near Lens
British troops had captured Jurbise quickly, defended by little more than a reinforced company of reservists they had retreated in the face of the attack by a battalion of British regulars. The British troops had moved to rapidly occupy the town and then the advance had continued Lens was already sighted and appeared to be similarly poorly defended.
The British attacks had been surprisingly successful, they were helped by two factors, the first being the professionalism of the attacking troops and their supporting arms, the second the paucity of German defences in the area of the attack. With the Germans concentrating the vast majority of their forces on the French and Belgians holding Namur and the majority of First Army attacking towards Lille, there were only two Germans Corps holding the line being attacked by the British. The initial attack had penetrated the defences with only 20-30% casualties amongst the attacking battalions.
The follow on brigades had pushed their attacks hard marching as quickly as they could to expand the initial penetration before reinforcements could stop them. They badly wanted for their cavalry but they had been thrown into the defence holding the line to the west of the attack and the only cavalry that was available were the small number of detached squadrons which were attached to the division and corps headquarters, to few in numbers to cause the kind of havoc that a could of brigades of cavalry behind the enemies line were capable of causing.
If this battle was to be a victory for British arms it would need to be won 140 paces a minute, burdened by rifles, pack, water, rations, groundsheets, bedroll, ammunition, bandoliers and all of the other accoutrements of war 140 paces a minute would be a challenge.
The eighteen pounder guns were moving forward with the infantry ready to support them if called on, the heavier guns were being moved forward as well but these guns needed more time to move and with their larger heavier gun teams were necessarily slower to displace and emplace.
Overhead the RNAS and the RFC were attempting to scout out the next defensive line, using aircraft in place of cavalry. A couple of cars were out in front of the marching troops, extemporaneous vehicles inspired by the RNAS armoured car squadron and armed with an assortment of machine guns and armoured with that ever could be found, they were as much a distraction to the BEF headquarters as to the Germans.
The Royal Garrison Artillery Regiment was already moving to establish an observation post on the top of Mont Garni, to take advantage of the height above the surrounding plains. The defenders of that vital height had seemed almost shocked at the savagery with which the British Infantry advanced, the two machine guns positions savaging the first company until stormed by parties with fixed bayonets. The machine gunners attempted to surrender but with their blood up the British gave no quarter.
The British troops were advancing towards Ath with the intention of cutting the railway there, with that strategic town in British hands the German troops attacking Lille were in real danger of being surrounded. The defeat, nigh destruction of the German Cavalry Corps adding to the problems for German High Command.
BEF command were pushIng the regular units forward towards Ath, the Territorial Divisions were being used to hold and expand the shoulders of the penetration. They would all march through the night hoping to outpace German reinforcements and unravelling any hasty defences.
British troops had captured Jurbise quickly, defended by little more than a reinforced company of reservists they had retreated in the face of the attack by a battalion of British regulars. The British troops had moved to rapidly occupy the town and then the advance had continued Lens was already sighted and appeared to be similarly poorly defended.
The British attacks had been surprisingly successful, they were helped by two factors, the first being the professionalism of the attacking troops and their supporting arms, the second the paucity of German defences in the area of the attack. With the Germans concentrating the vast majority of their forces on the French and Belgians holding Namur and the majority of First Army attacking towards Lille, there were only two Germans Corps holding the line being attacked by the British. The initial attack had penetrated the defences with only 20-30% casualties amongst the attacking battalions.
The follow on brigades had pushed their attacks hard marching as quickly as they could to expand the initial penetration before reinforcements could stop them. They badly wanted for their cavalry but they had been thrown into the defence holding the line to the west of the attack and the only cavalry that was available were the small number of detached squadrons which were attached to the division and corps headquarters, to few in numbers to cause the kind of havoc that a could of brigades of cavalry behind the enemies line were capable of causing.
If this battle was to be a victory for British arms it would need to be won 140 paces a minute, burdened by rifles, pack, water, rations, groundsheets, bedroll, ammunition, bandoliers and all of the other accoutrements of war 140 paces a minute would be a challenge.
The eighteen pounder guns were moving forward with the infantry ready to support them if called on, the heavier guns were being moved forward as well but these guns needed more time to move and with their larger heavier gun teams were necessarily slower to displace and emplace.
Overhead the RNAS and the RFC were attempting to scout out the next defensive line, using aircraft in place of cavalry. A couple of cars were out in front of the marching troops, extemporaneous vehicles inspired by the RNAS armoured car squadron and armed with an assortment of machine guns and armoured with that ever could be found, they were as much a distraction to the BEF headquarters as to the Germans.
The Royal Garrison Artillery Regiment was already moving to establish an observation post on the top of Mont Garni, to take advantage of the height above the surrounding plains. The defenders of that vital height had seemed almost shocked at the savagery with which the British Infantry advanced, the two machine guns positions savaging the first company until stormed by parties with fixed bayonets. The machine gunners attempted to surrender but with their blood up the British gave no quarter.
The British troops were advancing towards Ath with the intention of cutting the railway there, with that strategic town in British hands the German troops attacking Lille were in real danger of being surrounded. The defeat, nigh destruction of the German Cavalry Corps adding to the problems for German High Command.
BEF command were pushIng the regular units forward towards Ath, the Territorial Divisions were being used to hold and expand the shoulders of the penetration. They would all march through the night hoping to outpace German reinforcements and unravelling any hasty defences.
Post 997 gives a good example of the problems of WW1. An aggressive attack can take ground and break lines, but it's really hard to do anything more from there.
Plus there's the example of Nieuwport which shows how an unsuccessful attack can be severely mauled.
So you have to attack, even though you can't do much if you do succeed and risk devastating losses if you fail.
Plus there's the example of Nieuwport which shows how an unsuccessful attack can be severely mauled.
So you have to attack, even though you can't do much if you do succeed and risk devastating losses if you fail.
Yup, mechanised logistics for reinforcement of defence versus foot mobile attacks is a tough nut to crack. Capture the enemy’s nearest rail hub and then you’ve got a chance for major gains.
I think what a lot of people forget about even the earliest parts of WWI was that even if you did everything right, and events went your way, you could still have your attacking units mauled, and the attack stopped in its tracks because you can't possibly get enough reinforcments in to either stop a counterattack, or widen the breech in time due to the lack of a mechanised logistics system and troop transport.
In WW2 at lest you could load men up into trucks and get them near enough the frontlines to make a difference, same with supplies. During WW1 there was a severe lack of even trucks to move supplies if i remeber right let alone troops.
In WW2 at lest you could load men up into trucks and get them near enough the frontlines to make a difference, same with supplies. During WW1 there was a severe lack of even trucks to move supplies if i remeber right let alone troops.