That all works for the backstory of Roger Guerin, including him being a fellow at Merton College. Consider it canon for TTL.
TL-191: After the End
- Thread starter David bar Elias
- Start date
Thank You most kindly for this compliment!
One must admit that the HAPPY WAVE fascinates me, so I’m going to try a few character sketches for the various creative types mentioned in connection with it in your original article(s) on the subject - if you have no objection to my doing so, at least.😊
I think it would depend on if they took up arms against the US in anyway post-SGW. If they agreed to live peacefully and weren't complicit in war crimes, they might've been able to get veteran benefits from the US in order to dissuade them from any lost causer groups. Having angry, former soldiers out of a job, shunned, and with no decent income doesn't sound very wise.
No objections at all. Feel free to continue posting them in this thread.
By 2022, the surviving military veterans of the Confederate military in the USA have full access to the same general US government benefits as rest of the population. Former Confederate veterans have access to some benefits granted to US military veterans, such as assistance with psychiatric care.
Those convicted of war crimes after the end of the Second Great War were afforded no benefits by the US government.
If the Titanic disaster still occurred IATL, was the wreck ever discovered, and if so, when and who found it? Sam Carsten Jr?
I’m afraid that I can’t provide an answer to this question, because I don’t know if the Titanic disaster also took place in TTL.
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Well assuming that RMS Titanic did not sink in AD 1911 she would very likely have been converted into a hospital ship (like the unlucky Britannic, her younger sister, sunk after striking a German mine in the Mediterranean in AD 1916) or a troop ship (like the redoubtable Olympic, her ‘big sister’ and the only ship of her class that seems to have been d*** near unsinkable; she survived a collision with HMS Hawke of the Royal Navy, the Gallipoli campaign, a direct attack on U-103 during which she RAMMED that submarine and sailed away with little more than a dent in her hull, as well as taking a hit from a German torpedo that failed to detonate on impact - this one possibly launched by U-53).
For the record, only one of the Olympic-class ships survived long enough to be broken up for scrap - and that occurred in the the 1930s, the ship having been deemed unprofitable.
In other words Titanic might well have been sunk on active service had she not hit that iceberg, but could possibly have lasted as long as twenty or twenty-five years otherwise.
For the record, only one of the Olympic-class ships survived long enough to be broken up for scrap - and that occurred in the the 1930s, the ship having been deemed unprofitable.
In other words Titanic might well have been sunk on active service had she not hit that iceberg, but could possibly have lasted as long as twenty or twenty-five years otherwise.
For my replies to this list, I’m writing with the caveat that this is not necessarily what Turtledove had in mind regarding the Action Français regime, but is the case for this TTL. I’m also writing with the assumption that Charles Maurras is premier under King Charles XI.
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Charles Maurras was a true believer in the righteousness of Action Français. Like others in the leadership of AF, Maurras envisioned the “restoration” of France as an absolutist, Catholic monarchy, and the complete repudiation of republicanism and the French Revolution. Maurras also believed that this monarchist counter-revolution was the only way France could militarily restore its prestige against its German and US foes. Maurras, as well as serving King Charles XI as premier, was also the regime’s dominant ideologue.
Maurras worked to lay the groundwork for the final end to any and every republican institution, though he did not succeeded in an early attempt to abolish the National Assembly. The AF regime under Maurras instead worked behind the scenes to establish parallel systems of political power, ostensibly in the name of the restored monarchy. Postwar historians in TTL debated to what extent Charles XI directly participated in establishing parallel “royalist” corridors of power, though the leadership role played by Maurras in wielding power in royalist organizations, including the Milice française, was not disputed during the postwar years.
One of the central aspects of the Action Français regime was its antisemitism. Maurras had an absolute hatred of Jews that went back to before the First Great War. Under the AF regime, Jews were blamed for virtually all of the social and economic problems in French society, and were accused of providing covert support for the German Empire. Under the AF regime, the Jews of France gradually lost their political rights, beginning with all Jews who had immigrated to France within the proceeding three decades. The AF regime also revoked the 1870 Crémieux Decree, which had granted French citizenship to the Jews of Algeria. By 1941, all Jews in the French Empire, regardless of location, had been reduced to the status of third class subjects. The Jews of the French Empire were also economically impoverished by 1941, following a series of decrees which effectively banned Jews from participating in the French economy in any meaningful way. Jews were also placed under a regime of segregation not dissimilar to the CSA’s pre-Freedom Party treatment of its African-American population. By 1941, Jews throughout France were confined to ghettos; in 1940-1941, Maurras oversaw a campaign to expel the Jewish population from Paris. By 1941, Jews also made up a not insignificant proportion of the network of penal colonies established throughout the French Empire that were intended to supply forced labor as needed by local authorities. Some historians have speculated that had the Entente won the Second Great War, the Jews of the French Empire would have eventually faced an expulsion similar to the 1492 expulsion from Spain.
Maurras, during his time in power, also personally oversaw political campaigns directed against groups such as Protestants and Freemasons. Under AF, the French political left was also methodically crushed: membership in a labor union became grounds for forced labor by 1941.
Maurras did not particularly like Great Britain, but maintained the Anglo-French alliance directed against the German Empire. Maurras also maintained French military ties with the Russian Empire and the CSA. He envisioned France as the world’s leading great power after the final defeat of the Central Powers. Maurras was instrumental in persuading King Charles XI to wage war against the Germans, Austro-Hungarians, and the USA.
Charles Maurras was killed in the 1944 German superbombing of Paris.
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Maurice Pujo, as in our world, was the co-founder of Action Français and served as the leader of the AF’s youth organization, the Camelots du Roi. He was a loyal ally of Charles Maurras. Pujo was killed in the 1944 German superbombing of Paris.
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Philippe Pétain never recovered physically or emotionally from the French defeat at the Battle of Verdun during the First Great War. He was unceremoniously expelled from the French Army in 1917, and died in his sleep in 1921.
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Robert Brasillach doesn’t exist in TTL.
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The analogue to Marcel Petiot in TTL was Henri Petiot, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He was conscripted into the French Army in 1914, and killed in combat in the Western Front in 1915 during the First Great War.
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Looking though the first post on TTL and I have several questions, mainly around the dissolution of the British Raj in TTL.
Why didn't the Japanese expand west of Burma to include all of Bengal and the eastern part of Bharat?
Why those six nations (Bharat, Pakistan, Bengal, Burma/Myanmar, Sri Lanka, and Hyderabad) instead of fracturing into more?
Is there some form of military/economic union in the former Raj eventually? Also were Nepal and Bhutan added to said union?
How are those nations doing in TTL by 2022 and 2162?
What are their diplomacy between each other and the other Great Powers (USA, Germany, Austria-Hungary, Russia, Brazil, China, the Congo, and Persia) in both 2022 and 2162?
Why didn't the Japanese expand west of Burma to include all of Bengal and the eastern part of Bharat?
Why those six nations (Bharat, Pakistan, Bengal, Burma/Myanmar, Sri Lanka, and Hyderabad) instead of fracturing into more?
Is there some form of military/economic union in the former Raj eventually? Also were Nepal and Bhutan added to said union?
How are those nations doing in TTL by 2022 and 2162?
What are their diplomacy between each other and the other Great Powers (USA, Germany, Austria-Hungary, Russia, Brazil, China, the Congo, and Persia) in both 2022 and 2162?
Yes. Alfred Astaire served in the US Army during the 1960s. He was stationed in Australia during leadup to the Fourth Pacific War, and later saw combat in New Guinea during that conflict.
I’m afraid that the collapse of the British Empire in India and Southeast Asia immediately after the end of the Second Great War was not something that was well thought out in the first part of TTL. The chaotic withdrawal of British forces from the region could have resulted in greater political fragmentation than what was described.
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The Japanese ultimately did not attempt a major invasion of newly independent Bengal or Bharat due to military commitments elsewhere, especially in China and Siberia.
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This is what I already wrote about the history in TTL of Bharat and the Chennai Pact, slightly edited and expanded:
Bharat, in 2022, is the leader of its own economic and military alliance: the Indian Ocean Security Pact (IOSP), which is more popularly referred to as the Chennai Pact. By 2022, the Chennai Pact includes member states in South Asia, Southeast Asia, and in East Africa.
The Chennai Pact, which was established in 1972, was initially used by Bharat to challenge the Ottoman Empire’s leadership position in the Independence Movement, following an Ottoman-managed referendum that saw most of Kashmir placed under Pakistani rule. The Chennai Pact was also established in part as a security alliance against China and the US-led CDS.
The Chennai Pact, as of 2022, has arguably delivered mixed results for the Bharatis, as a coherent military alliance. Most member states of the Chennai Pact refused to participate alongside Bharat in the Tibetan War against China in the 1970s. In the late 1980s, the threats by member state Indonesia towards CDS-member state Singapore almost led to a wider war with the United States. In the late 1990s, several members of the Chennai Pact refused (for historical or religious reasons) to declare war against the Ottoman Empire during the Kashmir War.
By 2022, the Chennai Pact has experienced a major diplomatic setback with the exit of former pact-member Persia. Although Bharat and Persia were allied against the Ottomans during the Kashmir War, the subsequent support by Bharat for Baloch separatists (against Pakistan) and Kurdish separatists (against the Ottomans), led to a severing of formerly close security ties between the two states. By 2162, Bharat still regards Persia as a rival and enemy, though the German Empire, which maintains close military and political ties with Bharat, has cordial diplomatic ties with Persia.
Outside of the Chennai Pact, Bharat has enjoyed close security ties with the German Empire since the 1980s, when Germany assisted in the Bharati drive to modernize its military and expand its naval power. Bharat, in 2022, also enjoys cordial relations with the Russian Republic. Both Bharat and Russia cooperated in covert efforts to destabilize the Ottoman Empire by supporting certain groups with arms and funding.
Since the early 2000s, Bharat has been in a sustained period of diplomatic and security tensions with China (referred to in TTL as the “Long Drum Roll”). In 2022, diplomatic ties between the two countries have continued to deteriorate, as both Bharat and China race to test their respective first superbombs.
Bharat, by 2022, has also taken advantage of the Ottoman Dissolution and the Pakistan Dissolution to expand its sphere of influence in these different regions. The Bharatis are also engaged in efforts to limit US influence in East Africa, following the Somali Republic gaining membership in the CDS.
By 2162, Bharat and the Chennai Pact is part of one of the world’s two space exploration and colonization blocs; the Bharatis, Germans, Austro-Hungarians, and Congolese Federation are the major powers of this space exploration bloc. The Bharatis, as a result, have a not insignificant presence on the Moon, in near Earth space stations, and have territorial goals of their own on Mars along with the world’s other great powers.
The Bharatis, even by 2162, have maintained a long diplomatic and military rivalry with the United Stares and the CDS, though this has not led to a major war with the USA.
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Hyderabad ultimately agreed to annexation by Bharat by the mid-2030s, after many years of diplomatic pressure from the Bharati government.
Burma is a much more wealthy and politically stable country by 2022 in comparison to our world. Military rule in the country came to an end in the 1990s in TTL, and the country has high annual rates of economic growth. The capital of Burma in 2022 is in Yangon.
Sri Lanka avoided its long civil war of OTL in this world, and also has high rates of economic growth by 2022. There are, however, continued political tensions between the Sinhalese and Tamil populations. Sri Lanka also hosts several major overseas Bharati military installations.
Bengal, by 2022, enjoys cordial diplomatic ties with the United States. In TTL, the USA was one of the first countries to recognize Bengali independence, while US humanitarian assistance in the late 1940s and early 1950s helped to prevent a major famine. Bengal also enjoys high rates of economic growth by 2022.
Nepal and Bhutan were both close Bharati military allies even before the establishment of the Chennai Pact. By 2022, Nepal is still under a monarchy; it is also a somewhat wealthier country in comparison to our world. As with India in TTL, Bharat maintains regiments of Gurkha (Gorkha) soldiers recruited from Nepal.
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Pakistan, following its catastrophic military defeat (alongside the Ottoman Empire) in the Kashmir War of the late 1990s, entered into a period of military dictatorship under Field Marshal Galal Khan. Under this regime, the Pakistani government harshly oppressed the country’s ethic and religious minorities, resulting in a large number of Ahmadi, Shia, Christian, and Hindu refugees fleeing to Bharat. The Pakistani Dissolution, which began in 2014, resulted in the political fragmentation of Pakistan into several successor states, including the republics of Balochistan, Sindh, and Punjab, as well as the the independence of several Pashtun states. The Bharatis, following the beginning of the Pakistani Dissolution, also pursued a policy of “readjusting” the former border, though the Bharati government did not pursue a policy of major annexations of territory.
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Thanks for the answer.
Another question: Why is the world in TTL less technology and societally developed by a decade when compared to OTL? While I can think of two main reasons: America being split into two rival nations for a period of over 80 years and most of Japan basically becoming TTL's version of North Korea. Are there any other reasons for this state in society?
David will likely respond. But my take is the following:
Unlike OTL, In TTL, the US was also ravaged by both Great Wars. After the 2nd Great War the US to invest in rebuilding and occupying the South rather than programs like NASA and the like that helped both the economic and technological post-war boom. Recovery is much slower in TTL.
The same goes for Europe, where major cities were nuked during the war. Additionally, there was no Marshall Plan or post-war US lending to help Europe rebuild. Germany and it’s allies, who also suffered during the war, would’ve had to rebuild themselves first before even considering lending to their former enemies. The UK and France were both devastaed (and nuked) during the war and had to rebuild really slowly. There is no West German miracle in TTL.
A slower post-war recovery means less consumer spending and less investing by companies in R&D and the like.
So by the time the Fourth Pacific War breaks out we are already a tad behind. The FPW ravages much of Asia and creates further economic uncertainty once again limiting spending and investing.
Furthermore the world economy is much less integrated in TTL. There was no UN and World Bank post SGW and without the Cold War, Neoliberalism (for better or worse) appears to have never taken hold with most economies remaining relatively protectionist across the board. This basically means there is less cooperation outside each “sphere”.
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One significant factor that slowed some kinds of technological development in the postwar period in comparison to our world, as noted by jycee, was a relatively austere economy in the United States and throughout most of Europe during the first generation after the end of the SGW. Both the USA/CDS and the German and Austro-Hungarian-led European Community did enjoy high annual rates of economic growth throughout the 1960s prior to the Fourth Pacific War, but it was not to the scale of the OTL postwar economic boom in the USA, Japan, and Western Europe.
Another factor in TTL that hampered the technological development of certain kinds of goods was the relatively high levels of bureaucracy in many countries, though not to the same extent of either the USSR or India’s “Licence Raj” in our world. A more militarized society in many countries also meant that many national governments tended to place a greater emphasis on their military forces instead of facilitating the growth of new consumer markets. This was perhaps to be expected in a 20th Century where the German Empire, and a USA heavily influenced by the German Empire, were the victors of the two Great Wars.