Alternate warships of nations

[Count of Crisco]

I know Confederate States Navy battleships are popular in alt-history, but given the likely state of the CSA by the early 20th century (probably Southern Cone-tier for development/economy) I feel their navy would need to be looking smaller for effective defense against the US. My thought was they'd identify Tennessee as their key weak spot given proximity to the border and critical importance given the industry, agriculture, and transportation, and they'd thus develop plenty of river warfare vessels for fighting on the Cumberland, Tennessee, and Mississippi Rivers. What sort of craft might they develop?

Certainly they could probably make some fairly large river monitors as I believe as early as the 1930s, the Mississippi was navigable for craft up to 9 feet of draft as far inland as Minneapolis, replacing an earlier system of locks. I presume the USN might build river monitors of this size to counter anything the CSA throws at them by sea. My thought would be for the Mississippi, they'd develop ships that could do double-duty in both the river and the sea, with a fleet of torpedo boats and coastal destroyers that would have that 9 feet of draft. For a WWI destroyer, that would be about 500-1000 tons--would that be enough to act as both river monitor and destroyer from Cairo, IL to the Caribbean/Gulf of Mexico? Could you make it seaworthy enough to be a decent mini-commerce raider? I feel the CSN will be strapped for cash and need ships with a lot of potential roles, including the essential role of river defense.

The Tennessee and Cumberland could be integrated assuming the CSA builds the Tennessee-Tombigbee Waterway (expensive, but crucial to national defense). Early plans called for making a passage for ships up to 4 feet draft, but the modern waterway I believe has 9 feet. I'll assume the CSA is too poor for more than a 4 feet draft. I'd assume these would just be typical torpedo boats of the ra around 150-200 tons, but something the CSA could domestically build a sizable number of and use throughout their internal waterways and coastal areas.

Would this sort of Jeune Ecole doctrine work well enough for the CSA to beat hypothetical enemies like Spain while acting as deterrance for the US so they're far more careful with any potential blockade? Or anyone care to Springsharp or otherwise draw up decent designs?

The thing to remember, that I think alot of people forget is that the CSA was not unindustrialized at all, nor was it a poor backwards economy. To be sure the CSA was outmatched in every way but proportion of slaves to citizens by the north, but the state was still among the largest industrial economies in the world at the time. And with a surviving CSA likely seeking any edge they could I see them pursuing industrialization as much as possible. Probably as a means of countering the loss of revenue from selling Cotton to the British and north.

What this means for their navy I cant say, but a surviving CSA would have the potential to be able to afford a not insignificant navy should they want to. Though they would be best to invest in a mostly coastal and riverine force, see stuff like the Austrian Danube river monitors. Though if they wanted they could also likely afford a few battleships as status symbols if they wanted.

 

[Gokbay]

CSA can almost definitly be a Brazil grade navy. Maybe somewhat larger. Thought certainly nowhere close to proper big naval powers.

 

[Arkenfolm]

CSA can almost definitly be a Brazil grade navy. Maybe somewhat larger. Thought certainly nowhere close to proper big naval powers.

Obviously a good example, given Brazil's own riverine fleet, but the CSA has totally different geographical concerns given the need for river defenses lest the US sail right down into Alabama. Brazil's geography isn't anywhere near as bad. It seems Brazil built specialized river monitors like the Pernambuco-class or the currently serving Parnaiba and used them alongside other ships for coastal operations in WWII. However, their low speed means they couldn't function as a destroyer/monitor hybrid like I think would work. Maybe something like this Brazilian destroyer, at least if it had a bit reduced draft?

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Obviously a good example, given Brazil's own riverine fleet, but the CSA has totally different geographical concerns given the need for river defenses lest the US sail right down into Alabama. Brazil's geography isn't anywhere near as bad. It seems Brazil built specialized river monitors like the Pernambuco-class or the currently serving Parnaiba and used them alongside other ships for coastal operations in WWII. However, their low speed means they couldn't function as a destroyer/monitor hybrid like I think would work. Maybe something like this Brazilian destroyer, at least if it had a bit reduced draft?

The problem is that reducing draft is going to mean you need a tubbier hull form, which means you are going to lose speed for a given amount of horsepower. Hence a destroyer river monitor hybrid won't really work, this is a case where two specialists are better than a generalist trying to do both. All things being equal a destroyer is at a distinct disadvantage in a fight against a river monitor in an actual river, the monitor can carry bigger guns and actual armor and is more maneuverable, with the destroyer possibly unable to use its torpedoes in shallow water (edit torpedoes may run too deep to be useful, IE minimum depth setting for US Mk. 15 was 10 feet), nor able to move at full speed in a confined area

Note your destroyer is unarmored and carries 1 76mm gun and 5 57mm guns, compare to a similar sized river monitor, using the Austrian Sava as an example, with 2 120mm guns, 2 120mm howitzers, 2 66mm guns and 2 47mm guns and is armored enough to resist 76mm at combat ranges and has 4'3" draft

 

[Count of Crisco]

Obviously a good example, given Brazil's own riverine fleet, but the CSA has totally different geographical concerns given the need for river defenses lest the US sail right down into Alabama. Brazil's geography isn't anywhere near as bad. It seems Brazil built specialized river monitors like the Pernambuco-class or the currently serving Parnaiba and used them alongside other ships for coastal operations in WWII. However, their low speed means they couldn't function as a destroyer/monitor hybrid like I think would work. Maybe something like this Brazilian destroyer, at least if it had a bit reduced draft?

A hybrid destroyeer/ river monitor is a French navy in the 1880s level bad idea. The two roles are as mutually exclusive as you can possibly get.

For a river monitor what you want above all else is shallow draught and firepower. Speed and range are tertiary concerns at best next to these goals, and torpedoes are very much on the pointless end for one. Conversely for a destroyer you want high speed, seaworthiness (within limits) and range. Which necessitates a deep drafted vessel. You also want as many torpedoes as you can cram aboard such a ship as well.

A confederacy as outlined would probably try for a fleet made up of blue and brown water elements. Large numbers of shallow draught monitors, with a few larger units built verging on coastal defense ship territory would be useful for the rivers. While a number of long legged cruisers would be helpful for commerce raiding, and torpedo boats for coastal defense alongside the larger monitors. As the economy develops and the rivalry with the USA grows the CSN may eventually build some proper ocean going battleships and destroyers, but those would very much be a nice to have rather than must have item for your fleet.

 

[Count of Crisco]

Seems like the place to ask this though its a game. Anyone know how to get ultimate admiral dreadnoughts downloaded?

 

[Jim Smitty]

Stream has it in early release last time I looked.

 

[Count of Crisco]

Stream has it in early release last time I looked.

I have it on my wish list but it doesnt show an option to buy

 

[Jim Smitty]

I have it on my wish list but it doesnt show an option to buy

I brought it in January so maybe something changed?

 

[Gokbay]

Yeah, I had downloaded it from Steam some time earlier as well.

 

[Count of Crisco]

Yeah, I had downloaded it from Steam some time earlier as well.

Well I looked again and a buy now option I swear wasn't there five minutes prior appeared.

 

[Hammerbolt]

Expensive...

 

[Count of Crisco]

Ok been mucking about in UAD for the purposes of AU project I am now thinking of. While I like the game generally and greatly appreciate the provision they have of removing the various tabs. But for the love of god how do you get rid of the yellow icons around the turrets? I KNOW THE FFING DESIGN HAS LIMITED ARCS OF FIRE! I PUT THEM THERE MYSELF BECAUSE IT LOOKS RETARDED ANYWHERE ELSE AND ITS NOT THE MOST RETARDED THING DONE IOTL SO SHUT UP ABOUT THE LIMITED ARCS OF FIRE AND LET ME TAKE A PICTURE WITHOUT THEN STUPID COLOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As an example

 

[RanulfC]

Ok been mucking about in UAD for the purposes of AU project I am now thinking of. While I like the game generally and greatly appreciate the provision they have of removing the various tabs. But for the love of god how do you get rid of the yellow icons around the turrets? I KNOW THE FFING DESIGN HAS LIMITED ARCS OF FIRE! I PUT THEM THERE MYSELF BECAUSE IT LOOKS RETARDED ANYWHERE ELSE AND ITS NOT THE MOST RETARDED THING DONE IOTL SO SHUT UP ABOUT THE LIMITED ARCS OF FIRE AND LET ME TAKE A PICTURE WITHOUT THEN STUPID COLOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As an example

View attachment 739106

Sorry but that's an in-game feature because those are custom "yellow" turrets because of where you placed them. See they are right there near the bridge and that means everyone "important" is going to see them and realize they have limited firing arcs and that they are and should be embarrassed by those arcs. But since red indicates damage 'embarrassment' in game is represented by yellow instead. Hope that does not help at all because it's not actually meant to be helpful because "I" am not meant to be helpful...

Randy

 

[Count of Crisco]

Sorry but that's an in-game feature because those are custom "yellow" turrets because of where you placed them. See they are right there near the bridge and that means everyone "important" is going to see them and realize they have limited firing arcs and that they are and should be embarrassed by those arcs. But since red indicates damage 'embarrassment' in game is represented by yellow instead. Hope that does not help at all because it's not actually meant to be helpful because "I" am not meant to be helpful...

Randy

Yeah I understand why it is there, but at the same time, there should be a way to remove it.

On another note working through the training features and have reached a impass on the third exercise on gunnery. It pits you against a light cruiser and wants you to sink the thing. If you build a slow BB with loads of armor and guns you never catch the blasted thing before the timer runs out. So I built a 29 knot, 9in belt cruiser armed with 2x2 9in guns, 16x1 6in guns and sent it out.

Well even with the best superstructure bridge tower my ship cant hit anything, even at less than a kilometer of range I do zero damage effectively. Meanwhile the stupid CL merrily blasts my ship apart.

 

[Gokbay]

Yeah I understand why it is there, but at the same time, there should be a way to remove it.

On another note working through the training features and have reached a impass on the third exercise on gunnery. It pits you against a light cruiser and wants you to sink the thing. If you build a slow BB with loads of armor and guns you never catch the blasted thing before the timer runs out. So I built a 29 knot, 9in belt cruiser armed with 2x2 9in guns, 16x1 6in guns and sent it out.

Well even with the best superstructure bridge tower my ship cant hit anything, even at less than a kilometer of range I do zero damage effectively. Meanwhile the stupid CL merrily blasts my ship apart.

I was stuck somewhere as well but I forget where (and since my PC resetted I can't just open the game and check).

 

[Count of Crisco]

I was stuck somewhere as well but I forget where (and since my PC resetted I can't just open the game and check).

That's an advantage to something like steam, it can save your progress across devices. Though not sure if it's a thing outside the states, and tech can still mess up.

Well I don't have much else to do so I guess I am going to keep trying variations on the theme. Last round I got sunk by gunfire with an all around 9in belt and 2in deck armour so I am becoming increasingly convinced it's a bug. That or the game is trying to force me into playing a very specific way and won't accept anything else, which would be annoying.

 

[CV(N)-6]

That's an advantage to something like steam, it can save your progress across devices. Though not sure if it's a thing outside the states, and tech can still mess up.

Well I don't have much else to do so I guess I am going to keep trying variations on the theme. Last round I got sunk by gunfire with an all around 9in belt and 2in deck armour so I am becoming increasingly convinced it's a bug. That or the game is trying to force me into playing a very specific way and won't accept anything else, which would be annoying.

Don't have the game myself, but maybe try a fast, well armored cruiser with just 6-8 8-10" guns?

 

[Gokbay]

That's an advantage to something like steam, it can save your progress across devices. Though not sure if it's a thing outside the states, and tech can still mess up.

I did get the game from Steam, just haven't redownloaded it yet.

 

[Count of Crisco]

Ok well I have managed to fairly well fix my earlier issues and am plodding along. I plan to use UAD for a TL I want to write about an alternate Dutch navy so this should work out nicely.