Confederate Victory: When does the Confederacy become a pariah state?

The CSA's industrial output in 1861-62-63 when they had control of most of their industrial territories trumped Italy, Spain, Portugal & the Ottomans combined.
According to the US Census of Manufacturing in 1860, CSA only accounted for 8% of total US manufacturing output. At the same time, the US share of global manufacturing output in 1860 was 7.2% (Italy's share was 2.3%, and Belgium was only slightly higher than Italy). If so, the Confederate manufacturing output only stood at less than 1%, or less than 2% if you double the 8% figure. Now, Confederate probably was more industrialized per capita than Italy as Italy had much more population.

The Massachusetts example I talked about was also in 1860. And let's not forget that the Confederate had 8-9 times more population than Massachusetts.
 
As for immigration, poster @Fiver did provide the 1860 data in an old thread:

The 1860 Census counted:
1,000,896 immigrants in New York
430,344 immigrants in Pennsylvania
328,196 immigrants in Ohio
324,605 immigrants in Illinois
276,913 immigrants in Wisconsin
259, 902 immigrants in Massachusetts
233.105 immigrants in all 11 states combined that would form the Confederacy. Over half of them were in Louisiana and Texas.

The entire South ranked dead last, can't imagine the CSA would climb the rank.
 
According to the US Census of Manufacturing in 1860, CSA only accounted for 8% of total US manufacturing output. At the same time, the US share of global manufacturing output in 1860 was 7.2% (Italy's share was 2.3%, and Belgium was only slightly higher than Italy). If so, the Confederate manufacturing output only stood at less than 1%, or less than 2% if you double the 8% figure. Now, Confederate probably was more industrialized per capita than Italy as Italy had much more population.

The Massachusetts example I talked about was also in 1860. And let's not forget that the Confederate had 8-9 times more population than Massachusetts.
I don't really think people understand economics sometimes when I read posts like this. Manufacturing/Production =/= Industrialization. Industrialization also includes things like revenue development, service labour, infrastructural growth etc. While Industrialization derives itself from Manufacturing and its greater usage, it is not manufacturing in and of itself. Because while the south's industrial economy lagged behind from the North, and this ultimately showed in relation to the Civil War and them being outproduced in war material, the south also boasted a service sector that was far more intricate and efficient than the Union - which while useless in wartime is exactly what a peacetime economy needs. The South's service economy allowed the South to consistently maintain from 1830 - 61 a growth rate of 1.6% - 1.8% in comparison to the Union's 1.2% [1]. This meant that on per capita, industrialization and the economy of the south was far more effective than the union, and this showed - despite being outnumbered 1:10 in industrialization with the north, it was capable of fighting said north to standstill for 2 1/2 years. This also meant that income inequality in the south was slightly lesser than the north, despite the south enslaving 35% - 40% of its population. The top 2.2% in the North owned 32.12% of wealth on average whilst the top 2.2% in the south owned 32.03% of the wealth in the south on average, despite the historical stereotype [2]. Or for a more quantitative analysis, the top 10% in both the North and South owned 70% - 75% of the wealth, despite the south having only a tenth of the manufacturing output of the North. [3]

People really forget this point. Hating the Confeds because they were slavers is fine - everyone should do that in my opinion, but the economic argument against the Confederacy if it became an independent nation is just not there. Going by official records, the CSA produced just over 3 million tonnes of material during the Civil War in comparison to Italy's production of 1.2 Million, and the Ottomans' 0.76 in the same time period [4]. Taking private consumption, gross investment across the south, trade volume, and national spending in the south, the Confederacy within the borders of Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, Tennesse would be the 5th country in the world in 1860 by Total Gross Economy & 16th country in the world by Total Per Capita Income [5]. This idea that an independent Confederate economy would be a backwater banana state economy needs to die in the sand somewhere, because it is simply not factually true.

Sources:-
[1] - Fogel & Engerman, 1974
[2] - Richard Lowe & Randolph Campbell, 1976.
[3] - Lee Soltow, 1975
[4] - Richard D. Goff, 1969
[5] - Harold S. Wilson, 2005.
As for immigration, poster @Fiver did provide the 1860 data in an old thread:

The 1860 Census counted:
1,000,896 immigrants in New York
430,344 immigrants in Pennsylvania
328,196 immigrants in Ohio
324,605 immigrants in Illinois
276,913 immigrants in Wisconsin
259, 902 immigrants in Massachusetts
233.105 immigrants in all 11 states combined that would form the Confederacy. Over half of them were in Louisiana and Texas.

The entire South ranked dead last, can't imagine the CSA would climb the rank.
I'm not sure where you got this information from, but it;s way off. According to Civil War Citizens: Race, Ethnicity, and Identity in America’s Bloodiest Conflict by Susannah J. Ural (2010), there were 4.1 Million Immigrants in the USA in 1860, of whom 3.6 Million lived in the North, and 400,000 - 500,000 lived in the South. Louisiana was among the higher immigrant locations with 11% - 13% of immigrants coming to LO from 1850 - 1860 of the total American share. Other Southern States that did well for itself in immigration was Texas with 7.5% and (surprisingly) Tennesse at 2 - 4%.
 
My view is that the South would have limited industrialization. Capital would like be accumulated among the Planter class in the East and Oil and Cattle Barons in Texas and Oklahoma. The Ozark and Appalachia would likely be home to limited small scale manufacturing and light industry. European migration to CSA would likely target Texas, New Orleans and the Upper South. Texas is likely the only place where it will have a real cultural effect, but Texas will likely be split in a very pro-Slavery East, while the rest of the state will be more ambivalent to hostile to slavery. As capital accumulate in people unlikely to invest in industry and the army will need industry and the army will be a very important institution. I expect a lot of heavy industry to be established and owned by the army (similar to Egypt and Syria). The industrial workers will likely be mainly recruited among veterans and their families and with a minority of army owned slaves doing odd jobs. This will mean over time the army will grow into a third faction in the political environment of the Confederations and if CSA enter a period of political trouble (pretty unavoidable) I think military coups would be very likely.
 
IIRC, isn't the 'pariah state' trope derived from a statement Grant made in the last years of his life? Ultimately, the South's integration within the Atlantic economy (supplying ~80% of the UK's cotton import in 1860) by the mid-19th century is too substantial and extensive for it to be so rapidly-reduced to the status of 'pariah' in the first few decades following independence, no matter the consolidated moral and modern opinions regarding slavery. Indeed, the Southern crop of 1860-61 was record-breaking! Profit and production tends to triumph in the West at this stage in its civilizational development. Ditto for the North, particularly in regards to the textile mills of New England (whose lobby partly instigated the Red River Expedition for that very purpose, seizing and speculating cotton for their own ends). Trade and other factors also rendered Memphis and New Orleans wartime boom-towns. The Southern cotton trade will remain the most profitable and dominant for quite some time, especially in a scenario in which the industrial and agricultural interiors of Georgia, Alabama, and the Carolinas are not left utterly-bereft as in OTL 1864-65, permitting a more expedient economic and financial recovery in which foreign/domestic debts can be paid-off relatively quickly. IMO, African enslavement in the ATL will die a much more 'natural' rather than sudden and revolutionary death, with slavery being gradually abolished at the domestic state-level between c. 1880-1920, accelerating as the boll weevil infestation devastates many a field from west to east. The Upper South will naturally be the first to introduce such legislation, although South Carolina and Alabama will perhaps be among the 'hold-outs'.

As for Confederate industrialization and war production, this is one of the most poorly-understood fields of ACW scholarship. One cannot underestimate the effect of the Southern 'armaments miracle' that occurred under the tutelage of the Ordnance Chief, Col. Josiah Gorgas, who was a demigod in comparison to the bloated reputation of a certain Albert Speer. The War could've ended much sooner if, say Northrop, was in his position. If the entire South did not possess even a fraction of the production-potential of little Massachusetts for the entire 1861-65 period, then why was a single major battle not decided by a want for guns or ammunition, especially as the blockade became more effective, territory (particularly Tennessee) lost, and communications between the trans-Mississippi and eastern Confederacy severed in the aftermath of the fall of Vicksburg (and with it the Rio Grande arms traffic through Matamoros)? Why was the largest artillery barrage of the entire conflict conducted by a Confederate field army (despite the fuse issue)? Why could the Confederate Government provide Lee's disintegrating force with a train of more-than-enough ordnance, ammunition, caissons, etc. rather than provisions in the aftermath of the conquest of Richmond at Amelia Court House? Surely, even after Gorgas' efforts, the Confederacy was still handily out-produced by even a single Northeastern State (the Union's industrial expansion and organization was extraordinary in-itself). One 1861 estimation put the on-hand Southern matérial at only 159,000 small arms, 1,000 cannon of all (and obsolete) types, with most of these being seized at the Norfolk Navy Yard and other Federal coastal forts/arsenals by militia. Until 1863 only 10% of weapon production was domestic, with most of the arms utilized by Confederate armies being run through the blockade and/or scavenged from the battlefields. All the while, with Nashville and its powder facility lost, Gorgas was working tirelessly to develop the necessary cannon foundries, factories, and armories to reduce such dependencies, which proved inevitably difficult owing to a lack of pre-war skilled labor and machinery. Nevertheless, by 1864, Gorgas was permitted to state with confidence "Where three years ago we were not making a gun, a pistol, nor a sabre, no shot nor shell (except at Tredegar Works) -- a pound of powder --- we now make all these in quantities to meet the demands of our large armies." The need to establish a viable war-effort in the aftermath of Fort Donelson also caused President Davis to evolve what was arguably the most centralized national government in the Western Hemisphere until the New Deal, further destroying the various myths that have been propped-up. Let it also be noted that the alternative to the voluntary embargo in 1861 would have been a logistical nightmare for the nascent government, as Davis himself later explained.

Ultimately, the measures Davis enacted in 1864 to directly-control and regulate blockade-running import/export came too late, even though it did much to sustain foreign trade until the last weeks, and would have been of much benefit for the average Confederate infantryman if not for the laughable incompetence of Northrop. The principal Southern products (cotton, tobacco, sugar, naval stores, rice, and molasses) would be sent-out only under executive permit, whilst no luxuries (Parisian gowns, gold watches) not considered of absolute necessity for the common war-effort would be brought-in on vessels from Nassau, Bermuda, and Havana. This inevitably caused conflict between the seaboard and landlocked States, with the Congressional representatives of Georgia, the Carolinas, and Mississippi attempting to introduce a bill to nullify the new regulations, which was logically-vetoed by Davis. The duties were divided between two men, Thomas L. Bayne and Colin J. McRae, with the former supervising cotton-purchasing east of the Mississippi and the latter directing the sale of Southern staples and arms-purchasing in Western Europe. This was one of Davis' greatest accomplishments as a wartime leader, for by the end of 1864 he was able to report to Congress that his system had maintained trade volume with Europe, facilitated Richmond to distribute more supplies than formerly (if only Breckenridge had been made Secretary of War earlier!), and had transferred more profit into the Treasury than the private citizenry. Indeed, the siege of Petersburg was quite sustainable until the capture of both Atlanta/Wilmington and the desperation/deprivation induced by Sherman's marching columns. If the Confederate Government had successfully-attempted to seize control of its railroads, merchant vessels, and commerce due to earlier disasters in 1862-63, the South's strategic, economic, and financial position would have been much more robust, possibly-enabling ultimate victory. Alas, it was a matter of principle and the inherent greed and corruption entailing the stock-soaring business of blockade-running against the besieged walls of the South, with Davis, like a modern Macbeth, being the only one of note to remain defiant within that castle by April 1865.

We only have rough estimates for the ultimate statistical success of the blockade-running activities. Perhaps 600,000 small arms, 400,000 blankets, and large numbers of clothing may have been secured in 1861-65. Over the course of 1864 some 550,000 shoes were imported. In November-December 1864, 8.5 million pounds of cured meat, 500,000 pounds of coffee, and 1.5 million pounds of lead made it to port, despite anxieties and the deteriorating military situation.

In an independence scenario the Confederate States Navy will also have the means to complete, improve, and crew its significant ironclad contingent (the second-largest in 1864, IIRC), possibly permitting a practicable war with Spain over Cuba during the latter's revolution in 1868. You can also bet the Southern political elite will attempt to construct a great navy in order to avoid another depriving blockade and enemy river superiority, both key causes of defeat. Commerce raiders did achieve considerable success, but they were ultimately too few to seriously harm Northern shipping.

The main foundries were established in Georgia (at Macon, Columbus, and Augusta), with powder sites also being re-located to the latter. Selma, Alabama, was transformed into a new iron-manufacturing center until its own destruction during Wilson's Raid. Lead shot and artillery shells were produced in Salisbury, Virginia, and Montgomery, Alabama. Hell, according to Clement Eaton, at times the Southern divisions were better-armed than their counterparts, who, at least in 1861, were primarily-armed with the refuse of Europe, rendering frontal-assault slaughters such as Cold Harbor and Kennesaw Mountain feasible.

The early loss of Tennessee and its industrial potential is what makes these facts all the more remarkable. Although Tredegar Works in Richmond continued to produce the main quantity of cannon through the end, Tennessee contained a wealth of iron ore and other metals required for armament production. Consequently, new coal and iron fields were developed within the interior, birthing the expansion of Birmingham, Alabama's steel industry (a pre-war idea conceived by the aristocracy, IIRC), rendering a manufacturing base on the scale of Pittsburgh possible. Nonetheless copper, mercury, and lead still had to be obtained primarily through the decreasingly-effective blockade-runners.

The railroads are also a fascinating topic. During the War, for want of maintenance and other resources, the lines gradually-deteriorated, making inter-theater transport of divisions nigh-impossible after Chickamauga, mostly due to time, limiting the importance of interior lines. Thus the Confederacy suffered from worsening domestic transportation and distribution, even when industrial production was rendered sufficient in 1864. It would appear the Southern leadership would desire to improve its system in order to match the demonstrated superiority of the Union. All things considered, I'm certain foreign investors could be found for such projects with the promise of more expedient shipment of Southern staples to the seaports. Perhaps something resembling a transcontinental railroad could connect the South from Norfolk to El Paso.

Post-war Confederate politics is a topic deserving of its own thread. I have some ideas, with a bilateral party system (Nationalists and Libertarians) descended from factions divided over the Davis Administration and its performance/legislation. A Populist organization could also form in the lesser-developed States. If the wartime industry survives, that would contribute much in the way of immigration. But the Confederacy would never be reduced to the status of Central America-tier 'cotton' republic, military dictatorship, nor a communist state, despite the inevitable political, economic, and social difficulties that are certain to arise within a century of its establishment, despite probable post-war economic reconstruction/expansion. I think by ATL 1914 the CSA will be considered a great power, with more appreciable military and industrial potential than several European nations, but still inferior to its northern neighbor in those regards.
 
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I don't really think people understand economics sometimes when I read posts like this. Manufacturing/Production =/= Industrialization. Industrialization also includes things like revenue development, service labour, infrastructural growth etc. While Industrialization derives itself from Manufacturing and its greater usage, it is not manufacturing in and of itself. Because while the south's industrial economy lagged behind from the North, and this ultimately showed in relation to the Civil War and them being outproduced in war material, the south also boasted a service sector that was far more intricate and efficient than the Union - which while useless in wartime is exactly what a peacetime economy needs. The South's service economy allowed the South to consistently maintain from 1830 - 61 a growth rate of 1.6% - 1.8% in comparison to the Union's 1.2% [1]. This meant that on per capita, industrialization and the economy of the south was far more effective than the union, and this showed - despite being outnumbered 1:10 in industrialization with the north, it was capable of fighting said north to standstill for 2 1/2 years. This also meant that income inequality in the south was slightly lesser than the north, despite the south enslaving 35% - 40% of its population. The top 2.2% in the North owned 32.12% of wealth on average whilst the top 2.2% in the south owned 32.03% of the wealth in the south on average, despite the historical stereotype [2]. Or for a more quantitative analysis, the top 10% in both the North and South owned 70% - 75% of the wealth, despite the south having only a tenth of the manufacturing output of the North. [3]

People really forget this point. Hating the Confeds because they were slavers is fine - everyone should do that in my opinion, but the economic argument against the Confederacy if it became an independent nation is just not there. Going by official records, the CSA produced just over 3 million tonnes of material during the Civil War in comparison to Italy's production of 1.2 Million, and the Ottomans' 0.76 in the same time period [4]. Taking private consumption, gross investment across the south, trade volume, and national spending in the south, the Confederacy within the borders of Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, Tennesse would be the 5th country in the world in 1860 by Total Gross Economy & 16th country in the world by Total Per Capita Income [5]. This idea that an independent Confederate economy would be a backwater banana state economy needs to die in the sand somewhere, because it is simply not factually true.

Sources:-
[1] - Fogel & Engerman, 1974
[2] - Richard Lowe & Randolph Campbell, 1976.
[3] - Lee Soltow, 1975
[4] - Richard D. Goff, 1969
[5] - Harold S. Wilson, 2005.

I'm not sure where you got this information from, but it;s way off. According to Civil War Citizens: Race, Ethnicity, and Identity in America’s Bloodiest Conflict by Susannah J. Ural (2010), there were 4.1 Million Immigrants in the USA in 1860, of whom 3.6 Million lived in the North, and 400,000 - 500,000 lived in the South. Louisiana was among the higher immigrant locations with 11% - 13% of immigrants coming to LO from 1850 - 1860 of the total American share. Other Southern States that did well for itself in immigration was Texas with 7.5% and (surprisingly) Tennesse at 2 - 4%.
Slavery wasn't simply some feature of the CSA. It would be its Achilles' hill, OTL the South basically only desegregated because of the North. If the South won, and say, the boll weevil still arrived, we could see slavery being slowly phased out and replaced by something even worse than the Apartheid system. Yet such system would prove to be unmanageable in the long term. Why? Because of population distribution, in South Africa the distribution between its black and white population was always more different. But in the CSA, blacks would be the majority in at least two states. Say, in a Great Depression scenario, don't you think that there would be massive black revolts across the South, especially because of your supposed "Industrialized Confederacy" which would result in the black population moving to the cities to work in the factories? Even immigration would be limited, the South received immigrants, but very few compared to the North. With a system reliant on cheap labor and exportation, it would become a very difficult place to live, even if it industrialized because of a supposed service secto.

The parallels between the Confederacy and Brazil are striking, honestly that people tend to avoid these tell me a lot about who they really are. They think that a white supremacist nation would industrialize because "services" while a majority-mixed would never industrialize because of... what?
 
. But the Confederacy would never be reduced to the status of Central America-tier 'cotton' republic, military dictatorship, nor a communist state, despite the inevitable political, economic, and social difficulties that are certain to arise within a century of its establishment, despite probable post-war economic reconstruction/expansion
Why not? Brazil was also pretty centralized in the 1930s, still became a military dictatorship.
 
Slavery wasn't simply some feature of the CSA. It would be its Achilles' hill, OTL the South basically only desegregated because of the North. If the South won, and say, the boll weevil still arrived, we could see slavery being slowly phased out and replaced by something even worse than the Apartheid system. Yet such system would prove to be unmanageable in the long term. Why? Because of population distribution, in South Africa the distribution between its black and white population was always more different. But in the CSA, blacks would be the majority in at least two states. Say, in a Great Depression scenario, don't you think that there would be massive black revolts across the South, especially because of your supposed "Industrialized Confederacy" which would result in the black population moving to the cities to work in the factories? Even immigration would be limited, the South received immigrants, but very few compared to the North. With a system reliant on cheap labor and exportation, it would become a very difficult place to live, even if it industrialized because of a supposed service secto.

The parallels between the Confederacy and Brazil are striking, honestly that people tend to avoid these tell me a lot about who they really are. They think that a white supremacist nation would industrialize because "services" while a majority-mixed would never industrialize because of... what?
Where has it been claimed that a majority mixed nation would never industrialise on this thread?
 
Well, it certainly seems like that's what people are saying. The Confederacy = Industrializes because service. Brazil= Would never industrialize. Event though both nations were extremely similar
Brazil can industrialise. To an extent it did historically. The manner in which the CSA and Brazil could further their industrial power would however be radically different. Brazil had a more sustainable agricultural base to work from whilst the CSA already had a pre existing industrial base and service sector and a vastly more literate population. Socio-Economically both nations can industrialise (further in the case of the CSA) but in drastically different situations considering their differences in the political, geopolitical, economic spheres.
 
The South does not consist of obstinate and unadaptable idiots (for the most part, especially among the highly-educated planters). The current 'Cotton Kingdom' was established upon technological advancement, after all. There's a reason the Confederacy lasted as long as it did, particularly considering the vast disparity in 1861 resources. The War for Independence will have taught many important lessons in terms of technology, economy, and politicking. A leading promotor of Confederate industrialization and infrastructure development would perhaps be New Orleans editorialist James D. B. De Bow, who during the War urged Southerners to revolutionize production in order to "beat the Yankees with their own tools." This was also to avoid import-dependence upon the North and Western Europe during the transition into the late nineteenth-century.

Indeed, during the expansionist and excitable decade of the 1850s there was a small cabal of individuals who thought the future of the Southern nation depended on industrial development, for many cities during this period were experiencing promising growth in commerce, banking, and manufacturing. It was a quiet, internal affair, and by 1860-61 a skilled-labor force, however small in comparison with the Northern States, had developed, consisting of Anglo-American natives, Negroes (both slave and free), as well as German and Irish immigrants. These assets also were under the charge of capable managers, who possessed the means to further expand.

De Bow and his colleagues also thought that the U.S. Navy blockade was not a death sentence but a blessing in disguise. Historical example could be found in the War of 1812, during which the British blockade had accelerated development of New England's renowned industry, and now a parallel could occur in the South. In the autumn of 1861 De Bow toured Tredegar Iron Works in Richmond with its proprietor Gen. Joseph R. Anderson, and was astounded to witness nearly 1,500 skilled workers produce "huge cannon, great rifled naval guns, shells, and railroad iron". This was the South's first step in becoming a "great workshop", certainly now in a state of war in which "every branch of manufacturing is springing up." These extraordinary developments aroused nationalist sentiment, with one Mississippi journalist penning that before Fort Sumter "we were so poor, so helpless, the Yankees had to take care of us like so many children. Let us resolve never to be dependent on that people who are murdering us." The Charleston Mercury reported as well that daily there was talk of "new schemes and designs -- manufactures, arts, and sciences. We shall soon be able to produce every cannon and gun, every pistol and sabre, every rifle and spear." Under Gorgas' Ordnance Bureau these claims were possible.

As stated before, in 1861-62 most Southern matérial had to be run through the blockade or captured on campaign in order to sustain initial, insufficient reserves. This was successful -- for in 1862 alone 100,000 stand of arms were seized from the enemy. Gorgas also established a minor trade of Colt revolvers through neutral Kentucky in 1861. As it stood, the Confederate States contained the necessary resources to establish its own domestic arms industry (such as iron and coal fields). Mercury for percussion caps was limited, and had to be obtained primarily through the Rio Grande traffic route. Over many months Gorgas oversaw the implementation of new "arsenals, cannon foundries, powder mills, forges, smelting works, rolling mills, and carbine and pistol factories." The Confederate Government underwrote state-of-the-art, privately-owned plants by lending start-up funds in exchange for a pledge to sell most products to the military. Previously-existing facilities were motivated to expand with large contracts. Bureaucratic forces monitored production and further established profit-ceilings. Gunpowder production was made all the more wondrous due to a lack of niter. Gorgas' solution was to form a Niter Corps. These officers surveyed the Lower South and struck considerable deposits in the limestone caverns of the Tennessee Valley. The Bureau further supplemented its supply by prosecuting an old-style European method, the nitrary.

As previously stated, with the fall of Nashville in 1862, Augusta became the primary site of gunpowder production. The works was designed and constructed by Col. George Washington Rains, and was a national effort, with "five-ton iron rollers from Richmond; an immense cast-iron shaft from Chattanooga; a fine, 130-horsepower steam engine from Atlanta; iron castings from Alabama; steam-pipes from New Orleans; copper boilers cannibalized from turpentine stills at Wilmington, North Carolina." This makeshift mill would become one of the most productive on the continent, turning-out as much as 5,000 pounds of high-quality powder per day (2,750,000 total by 1865). Nevertheless, Tredegar on the James River would remain the most prodigious of war industries, with its owner, Anderson, declaring in 1861 to his new government that "We will make anything you want -- work day and night if necessary, and ship by rail." His facility would ultimately produce nearly 1,100 cannon, including massive siege guns, unquantifiable amounts of shell, naval torpedoes, caissons, armor plating and machinery for gunboats, and other heavy equipment for the proliferating armaments industry. Tredegar continued to expand, causing Anderson to purchase coal mines and blast furnaces in order to insure his own supply of pig iron. He also constructed his own tannery and shoe factory, as well as running cloth through the blockade on his personal vessels, in order to clothe his workforce of 2,500 (including trained Englishmen and Germans). General Robert E. Lee recognized the immense strategic importance of Anderson's operation to the Southern war-effort, and advised President Davis to scatter some of his production into the interior, so that if Richmond should fall his army would not be "destitute". Perhaps the greatest issue facing Confederate industry was lack of manpower due to the growing military emergency, despite legal protection of essential workers from the national draft, and some States requiring active-duty militia service. The Richmond Arsenal reported its production fell-off by some 360 rifles per month following the death of one of its expert barrel straighteners in combat. The laws also failed to establish the status of skilled foreigners working within the munitions industry. Officers' swords were often produced by Austrians in Kenansville, North Carolina, or by the Germans of Louis Haiman and Brother (Columbus, Georgia). Many foreign-born artisans fled once they learned they were to be conscripted. The corruption of local draft boards is often to blame, to the great loss of Tredegar, for example.

One solution was to utilize the 3.5 million enslaved plantation workers, but many of these were already being impressed by the military to construct fortifications. The Confederate Congress passed legislation in 1863 authorizing the national impressment of slaves, with compensation to their masters. Thousands of Negroes would serve as "teamsters, cooks, hospital attendants, construction workers, and as skilled/unskilled laborers in many industrial plants." The planters naturally feared, however, that their valuable personnel would be abused by negligent foremen. The government was also not often accurate in terms of its contracted agreements as well as reimbursement, requiring further ordinances. It would also grant the slave a pernicious taste for independence and time away from the fields, as James Hammond of South Carolina would put-it.

The South also became an essential research institution for military advancements. For example, inventing the Brooke rifled gun for coastal defense as well as the more famous submersibles. Nevertheless, the loss of territory and large-scale raids remained haunting prospects, starting with Nashville and New Orleans in the Spring of 1862, with the former its powder mills and ordnance stores, and the latter its manufacturing potential, second only to Richmond. The fall of Vicksburg and resultant Federal river supremacy on the Mississippi the following year caused the significant curtailment of percussion cap manufacture for want of 'Matamoros mercury'. The expulsion of Bragg from Chattanooga at the close of 1863 caused the loss of Tennessee and its copper mines, forcing the Confederates to cease production of their favored 12-pounder Napoleons. By this point, however, Gorgas was writing in his diary that the Ordnance Bureau's work had exceeded "beyond my utmost expectations."

I could continue below.
 
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Well, it certainly seems like that's what people are saying. The Confederacy = Industrializes because service. Brazil= Would never industrialize. Event though both nations were extremely similar
They were roughly similar in GDP per capita. However, the Confederacy had much more ability to develop economically. It had a literacy rate of about 40%, including women and the enslaved, and 80% among the white male population. In 1890, 30 years later, Brazil had a literacy rate of just 15%. It would not reach the levels of the Confederacy until 1950. Argentina, Brazil, and the Confederacy all were overdependent on agricultural exports for their economies, but the much higher education levels in the Confederacy give them a huge advantage in moving beyond that agrarian economy.

Which is why it isn't surprising that the Confederacy was already significantly more industrialized than Brazil in 1860. Brazil basically had no industry. Brazil had 9, 9! textile factories in 1866 in the whole country, employing less than 1,000 workers total! I can't find a number for the confederacy specifically, but it had 1/15th of the total textile production of the US, which had 3,000 textile factories, suggesting the Confederacy had at least 200 textile mills (southern factories generally smaller on average). In 1889, Brazil had 600 factories of all types. The Confederacy a generation earlier had 20,000 factories of all types. The Confederacy was already pretty industrialized for its time in 1860. The North was just even more so, with roughly 2.5X the factories per capita, and with only the UK as a possible rival. The Confederacy will industrialize because that process is already underway. Brazil will not industrialize because it has horrendous literacy rates and almost no base to build off of.
 
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Although it is often-written that the South could do little but clothe itself, this is seemingly not the case in terms of the federal military, through no great fault of the mostly-incompetent Quartermaster Department of Col. Abraham C. Myers. In mid-1861, Myers' oversaw the establishment of a sizable cloth-cutting factory in Richmond, which did not actually produce the final product. Instead, sewing was entrusted to local women operating out of their homes, with this labor-force soon expanding into the thousands across the South (including 2,000 in Richmond and 3,000 in Atlanta). It was a decentralized cottage industry in every sense of the word, and heavily-reliant on the gradually-deteriorating transportation network. This is one reason for the poorly-uniformed and clad Confederate soldier that was witnessed through the War. Another issue was that State Governments preferred to conserve domestically-procured wool and cotton for their own militias. For example, at the close of 1864 North Carolina was consuming the entire production of its 40-odd textile mills, which also happened to represent fully-half of the mills remaining in Rebel-held territory. The issue regarding shoes is perhaps the most famous, especially in popular reference to Gettysburg. The South had little in terms of a leather industry, and had been accustomed to importing its shoes and saddles from the Northern States. Early in the War, the Confederate Government expected to extract its needs from the farms and fledgling tanneries of Tennessee, and after the 1862 offensive in the West there was a chronic shortage of leather, to the detriment of all. Although Myers had been dismissed, in late 1863 War Department bureaucrat Robert Kean noted that the Quartermaster Department had not provided the military with shoes for nearly a year, and that the Army of Northern Virginia was in essence going barefoot.

Nonetheless, the Southern public would prove as ingenious and resilient as ever in response to shortages, attempting to build-up a new domestic consumer-industry, with cobblers attempting to produce viable wares from a variety of skins from squirrels to alligators, in addition to wooden clogs. One entrepreneur, planter Joseph A. Turner of Putnam County, Georgia, in his weekly paper The Countryman, advertised hats made of "[all] skins that have fur on them." Cottage industries developed, providing women with bonnets of "pine needles, palmetto fronds, straw, and corn shucks." Southerners, exhorted by newspapers, indeed would demonstrate they could manage, at least in the short-term, without Northern goods, from "as good as Faber's" pencils in Greensboro, Alabama, to friction "Rebel Matches" in Jackson, Mississippi. There was also the instance of a shoe-peg factory in Staunton, Virginia, that could convert a maple tree into pegs before a stutterer could pronounce "Jack Robinson". Hundreds of patents were submitted, for invented agrarian "plows, hoes, seed planters, and cotton cleaners". Perhaps the greatest imported resource lost to the South during the War was medicine and surgical equipment.

Despite it all, the explosion of industry, both military and consumer, created immense pressure on the Confederacy's limited and cheaply-built rail network. These railroads, in the Antebellum, were designed primarily to transport the staple crops from the Coastal Plain to port, and proved near-worthless to a nation engaged in total, industrial war. Of 31,000 miles of track, only 9,000 was contained within the Southern States, with the system owned by 113 small companies of varying administrative control. Most of the rails were designed with the standard five-foot gauge, with the most important lines in Virginia and North Carolina displaying a four-foot eight and one-half inch gauge. The main effect of this was substantial delay in transporting supplies from the lower South to Virginia, and the capital to other cities. Consistency was worse in the expanse of the trans-Mississippi West. Even worse still, was that the rail lines did not connect at centers such as Richmond, Augusta, and Savannah, meaning freight had to be unloaded, transferred across town via wagon, and then reloaded onto another car. Davis, before his first inauguration in 1861, had to attempt a 750-mile round-trip from Jackson to Chattanooga in order to reach the first capital of Montgomery, instead of the 250 miles that could have been made had the rail system not been missing a vital link between Selma and Montgomery.

Davis' solution as executive was to improve this most vital weakness, and successfully-obtained the million-dollar appropriation necessary to close the most vital gap between Greensboro, North Carolina, and Danville, Virginia, despite attacks that this was an affront to states' rights, and its completion eighteen-months behind schedule. So it seems Southerners would remain, at least in the post-war 'Libertarian school' opposed to the growth and consolidation of the rail system. The companies remained too competitive to adopt federal requests for a standard gauge, connection of their respective lines at terminals, nor in lending one another rolling stock. The railroads gradually became so deteriorated that the average speed was less than fifteen-miles per hour even in optimal conditions. Engineers were forced to frequently halt in order to gather wood for fuel, not to mention the majority single-track design caused traffic delays on sidings. The Southern rail experience was generally overcrowded, miserable, and accident-prone, not to mention time-consuming, damaging Army prospects. Lee wrote to Davis in 1864 that "Unless some improvement is made, I do not know what will become of us."

As stated earlier, direct government control was infeasible until the last months. Branch lines were cannibalized in order to service the main lines. Confederate industry was severely-curtailed, for in 1864 Tredegar could no longer receive crude iron from Alabama for reasons stated above. An alternative river transportation system was not practicable due to Federal naval superiority. Beast-pulled wagons were also increasingly-inadequate as fodder for mules and horses became scarce and losses of equipment mounted on campaign. Thus the Confederate Government resorted to impressment laws for procurement of civilian animals and wagons, which was highly-unpopular, for agents -- "pressmen" -- did not pay market price, and sometimes nothing at all, further depriving the Southern citizen.

As it stands, the problem of adequate transportation, especially rail, will probably serve to become a paramount issue in post-war Confederate politics and economy, and will require much restoration/augmentation.

And we could go on and on...
 
Although it is often-written that the South could do little but clothe itself, this is seemingly not the case in terms of the federal military, through no great fault of the mostly-incompetent Quartermaster Department of Col. Abraham C. Myers. In mid-1861, Myers' oversaw the establishment of a sizable cloth-cutting factory in Richmond, which did not actually produce the final product. Instead, sewing was entrusted to local women operating out of their homes, with this labor-force soon expanding into the thousands across the South (including 2,000 in Richmond and 3,000 in Atlanta). It was a decentralized cottage industry in every sense of the word, and heavily-reliant on the gradually-deteriorating transportation network. This is one reason for the poorly-uniformed and clad Confederate soldier that was witnessed through the War. Another issue was that State Governments preferred to conserve domestically-procured wool and cotton for their own militias. For example, at the close of 1864 North Carolina was consuming the entire production of its 40-odd textile mills, which also happened to represent fully-half of the mills remaining in Rebel-held territory. The issue regarding shoes is perhaps the most famous, especially in popular reference to Gettysburg. The South had little in terms of a leather industry, and had been accustomed to importing its shoes and saddles from the Northern States. Early in the War, the Confederate Government expected to extract its needs from the farms and fledgling tanneries of Tennessee, and after the 1862 offensive in the West there was a chronic shortage of leather, to the detriment of all. Although Myers had been dismissed, in late 1863 War Department bureaucrat Robert Kean noted that the Quartermaster Department had not provided the military with shoes for nearly a year, and that the Army of Northern Virginia was in essence going barefoot.

Nonetheless, the Southern public would prove as ingenious and resilient as ever in response to shortages, attempting to build-up a new domestic consumer-industry, with cobblers attempting to produce viable wares from a variety of skins from squirrels to alligators, in addition to wooden clogs. One entrepreneur, planter Joseph A. Turner of Putnam County, Georgia, in his weekly paper The Countryman, advertised hats made of "[all] skins that have fur on them." Cottage industries developed, providing women with bonnets of "pine needles, palmetto fronds, straw, and corn shucks." Southerners, exhorted by newspapers, indeed would demonstrate they could manage, at least in the short-term, without Northern goods, from "as good as Faber's" pencils in Greensboro, Alabama, to friction "Rebel Matches" in Jackson, Mississippi. There was also the instance of a shoe-peg factory in Staunton, Virginia, that could convert a maple tree into pegs before a stutterer could pronounce "Jack Robinson". Hundreds of patents were submitted, for invented agrarian "plows, hoes, seed planters, and cotton cleaners". Perhaps the greatest imported resource lost to the South during the War was medicine and surgical equipment.

Despite it all, the explosion of industry, both military and consumer, created immense pressure on the Confederacy's limited and cheaply-built rail network. These railroads, in the Antebellum, were designed primarily to transport the staple crops from the Coastal Plain to port, and proved near-worthless to a nation engaged in total, industrial war. Of 31,000 miles of track, only 9,000 was contained within the Southern States, with the system owned by 113 small companies of varying administrative control. Most of the rails were designed with the standard five-foot gauge, with the most important lines in Virginia and North Carolina displaying a four-foot eight and one-half inch gauge. The main effect of this was substantial delay in transporting supplies from the lower South to Virginia, and the capital to other cities. Consistency was worse in the expanse of the trans-Mississippi West. Even worse still, was that the rail lines did not connect at centers such as Richmond, Augusta, and Savannah, meaning freight had to be unloaded, transferred across town via wagon, and then reloaded onto another car. Davis, before his first inauguration in 1861, had to attempt a 750-mile round-trip from Jackson to Chattanooga in order to reach the first capital of Montgomery, instead of the 250 miles that could have been made had the rail system not been missing a vital link between Selma and Montgomery.

Davis' solution as executive was to improve this most vital weakness, and successfully-obtained the million-dollar appropriation necessary to close the most vital gap between Greensboro, North Carolina, and Danville, Virginia, despite attacks that this was an affront to states' rights, and its completion eighteen-months behind schedule. So it seems Southerners would remain, at least in the post-war 'Libertarian school' opposed to the growth and consolidation of the rail system. The companies remained too competitive to adopt federal requests for a standard gauge, connection of their respective lines at terminals, nor in lending one another rolling stock. The railroads gradually became so deteriorated that the average speed was less than fifteen-miles per hour even in optimal conditions. Engineers were forced to frequently halt in order to gather wood for fuel, not to mention the majority single-track design caused traffic delays on sidings. The Southern rail experience was generally overcrowded, miserable, and accident-prone, not to mention time-consuming, damaging Army prospects. Lee wrote to Davis in 1864 that "Unless some improvement is made, I do not know what will become of us."

As stated earlier, direct government control was infeasible until the last months. Branch lines were cannibalized in order to service the main lines. Confederate industry was severely-curtailed, for in 1864 Tredegar could no longer receive crude iron from Alabama for reasons stated above. An alternative river transportation system was not practicable due to Federal naval superiority. Beast-pulled wagons were also increasingly-inadequate as fodder for mules and horses became scarce and losses of equipment mounted on campaign. Thus the Confederate Government resorted to impressment laws for procurement of civilian animals and wagons, which was highly-unpopular, for agents -- "pressmen" -- did not pay market price, and sometimes nothing at all, further depriving the Southern citizen.

As it stands, the problem of adequate transportation, especially rail, will probably serve to become a paramount issue in post-war Confederate politics and economy, and will require much restoration/augmentation.

And we could go on and on...
And also, your text is just some neo-Confederate rambling. Blocked.
 
Although it is often-written that the South could do little but clothe itself, this is seemingly not the case in terms of the federal military, through no great fault of the mostly-incompetent Quartermaster Department of Col. Abraham C. Myers. In mid-1861, Myers' oversaw the establishment of a sizable cloth-cutting factory in Richmond, which did not actually produce the final product. Instead, sewing was entrusted to local women operating out of their homes, with this labor-force soon expanding into the thousands across the South (including 2,000 in Richmond and 3,000 in Atlanta). It was a decentralized cottage industry in every sense of the word, and heavily-reliant on the gradually-deteriorating transportation network. This is one reason for the poorly-uniformed and clad Confederate soldier that was witnessed through the War. Another issue was that State Governments preferred to conserve domestically-procured wool and cotton for their own militias. For example, at the close of 1864 North Carolina was consuming the entire production of its 40-odd textile mills, which also happened to represent fully-half of the mills remaining in Rebel-held territory. The issue regarding shoes is perhaps the most famous, especially in popular reference to Gettysburg. The South had little in terms of a leather industry, and had been accustomed to importing its shoes and saddles from the Northern States. Early in the War, the Confederate Government expected to extract its needs from the farms and fledgling tanneries of Tennessee, and after the 1862 offensive in the West there was a chronic shortage of leather, to the detriment of all. Although Myers had been dismissed, in late 1863 War Department bureaucrat Robert Kean noted that the Quartermaster Department had not provided the military with shoes for nearly a year, and that the Army of Northern Virginia was in essence going barefoot.

Nonetheless, the Southern public would prove as ingenious and resilient as ever in response to shortages, attempting to build-up a new domestic consumer-industry, with cobblers attempting to produce viable wares from a variety of skins from squirrels to alligators, in addition to wooden clogs. One entrepreneur, planter Joseph A. Turner of Putnam County, Georgia, in his weekly paper The Countryman, advertised hats made of "[all] skins that have fur on them." Cottage industries developed, providing women with bonnets of "pine needles, palmetto fronds, straw, and corn shucks." Southerners, exhorted by newspapers, indeed would demonstrate they could manage, at least in the short-term, without Northern goods, from "as good as Faber's" pencils in Greensboro, Alabama, to friction "Rebel Matches" in Jackson, Mississippi. There was also the instance of a shoe-peg factory in Staunton, Virginia, that could convert a maple tree into pegs before a stutterer could pronounce "Jack Robinson". Hundreds of patents were submitted, for invented agrarian "plows, hoes, seed planters, and cotton cleaners". Perhaps the greatest imported resource lost to the South during the War was medicine and surgical equipment.

Despite it all, the explosion of industry, both military and consumer, created immense pressure on the Confederacy's limited and cheaply-built rail network. These railroads, in the Antebellum, were designed primarily to transport the staple crops from the Coastal Plain to port, and proved near-worthless to a nation engaged in total, industrial war. Of 31,000 miles of track, only 9,000 was contained within the Southern States, with the system owned by 113 small companies of varying administrative control. Most of the rails were designed with the standard five-foot gauge, with the most important lines in Virginia and North Carolina displaying a four-foot eight and one-half inch gauge. The main effect of this was substantial delay in transporting supplies from the lower South to Virginia, and the capital to other cities. Consistency was worse in the expanse of the trans-Mississippi West. Even worse still, was that the rail lines did not connect at centers such as Richmond, Augusta, and Savannah, meaning freight had to be unloaded, transferred across town via wagon, and then reloaded onto another car. Davis, before his first inauguration in 1861, had to attempt a 750-mile round-trip from Jackson to Chattanooga in order to reach the first capital of Montgomery, instead of the 250 miles that could have been made had the rail system not been missing a vital link between Selma and Montgomery.

Davis' solution as executive was to improve this most vital weakness, and successfully-obtained the million-dollar appropriation necessary to close the most vital gap between Greensboro, North Carolina, and Danville, Virginia, despite attacks that this was an affront to states' rights, and its completion eighteen-months behind schedule. So it seems Southerners would remain, at least in the post-war 'Libertarian school' opposed to the growth and consolidation of the rail system. The companies remained too competitive to adopt federal requests for a standard gauge, connection of their respective lines at terminals, nor in lending one another rolling stock. The railroads gradually became so deteriorated that the average speed was less than fifteen-miles per hour even in optimal conditions. Engineers were forced to frequently halt in order to gather wood for fuel, not to mention the majority single-track design caused traffic delays on sidings. The Southern rail experience was generally overcrowded, miserable, and accident-prone, not to mention time-consuming, damaging Army prospects. Lee wrote to Davis in 1864 that "Unless some improvement is made, I do not know what will become of us."

As stated earlier, direct government control was infeasible until the last months. Branch lines were cannibalized in order to service the main lines. Confederate industry was severely-curtailed, for in 1864 Tredegar could no longer receive crude iron from Alabama for reasons stated above. An alternative river transportation system was not practicable due to Federal naval superiority. Beast-pulled wagons were also increasingly-inadequate as fodder for mules and horses became scarce and losses of equipment mounted on campaign. Thus the Confederate Government resorted to impressment laws for procurement of civilian animals and wagons, which was highly-unpopular, for agents -- "pressmen" -- did not pay market price, and sometimes nothing at all, further depriving the Southern citizen.

As it stands, the problem of adequate transportation, especially rail, will probably serve to become a paramount issue in post-war Confederate politics and economy, and will require much restoration/augmentation.

And we could go on and on...
Sounds rather improbable.
 
Just to prove how inferior the Confederates were on terms of their capacity to industrialize. New Haven County - A SINGLE COUNTY - in Connecticut, produced firearms at a value 10 times greater than the entire Southern US. And the North had as many factories as the South had industrial workers (the north had 100 thousand factories, the same number of industrial workers in the South)
It bears pointing out that this statistic is a little skewed by all of the major firearms manufacturers of the day being domiciled in the greater Connecticut Valley area. New Haven itself was basically the arsenal of the Union
 
I expect a lot of heavy industry to be established and owned by the army (similar to Egypt and Syria)
We are talking about the 19th century. Both of your examples were in the 20th century, when that practice had been normalized.

It bears pointing out that this statistic is a little skewed by all of the major firearms manufacturers of the day being domiciled in the greater Connecticut Valley area. New Haven itself was basically the arsenal of the Union
Hey, there is also the Springfield Armory in Massachusetts, which was also an extremely important one.
 
We are talking about the 19th century. Both of your examples were in the 20th century, when that practice had been normalized.


Hey, there is also the Springfield Armory in Massachusetts, which was also an extremely important one.
True! The namesake of the Springfield rifle, if I recall. It is curious, though, that basically all the rifle manufacture came from just a handful of cities in tight proximity to one another…
 
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