A Sound of Thunder: The Rise of the Soviet Superbooster

Despite Zond 10 not completing the docking with the LK, it was still planned to detach the BO before making the Earth return manoeuvre, and it was here that the mission suffered its first major failure. The explosive bolts designed to separate the BO from the descent module appear to have worked as designed, but the umbilical connector between the two modules did not detach as planned. This left the BO hanging from the rest of the LOK but a thick, flexible cable. Attempts were made to jerk the connector free by backing the LOK away using its attitude control thrusters, but the cable remained stubbornly in place.

With the minutes dwindling to the planned TEI burn, the decision was taken to attempt the burn as planned and hope that the BO would fall away once full thrust was applied. This scheme almost succeeded, but before the cable ripped free, it pulled the BO into a collision with the LOK’s propulsion module, damaging the delicate radiator panels covering the surface of the module.

With the layout of the modules if there had been cosmonauts onboard would they have been able to do anything?

Otherwise great as always. Politically 1979 could be a tricky year for Carter and NASA. Even though the Americans can say been there done that when the Soviets land on the moon, especially the marginal L3 mission if the Soviets can pull off a L3M landing in 1978 and then do a decent cadence of more impressive L3M missions in 1979 even as the Space Shuttle schedule slips right.
 
oh oh if this TL goes for NASA like OTL
Capitol Hill will scream murder and mayhem and "We have to return to Moon !!!"
while NASA is working on Shuttle
i wonder if President order NASA "kill the orbiter" make out STS a moon rocket...

i'm curious how Nixonhead will take the Shuttle evolution, once Soviet cosmonaut land on Moon in the TL
 
oh oh if this TL goes for NASA like OTL
Capitol Hill will scream murder and mayhem and "We have to return to Moon !!!"
while NASA is working on Shuttle
i wonder if President order NASA "kill the orbiter" make out STS a moon rocket...

i'm curious how Nixonhead will take the Shuttle evolution, once Soviet cosmonaut land on Moon in the TL
Somewhere in the Bowels of Langley:
"The only way we can make the STS go back to the Moon is the Reusable Nuclear Shuttle."

"...didn't that require one of the fifty upgraded Saturn concepts we threw around to reach orbit?"

"THE. ONLY. WAY. IS. THE. REUSABLE. NUCLEAR. SHUTTLE."

"Brilliant!"
 
Somewhere in the Bowels of Langley:
"The only way we can make the STS go back to the Moon is the Reusable Nuclear Shuttle."

"...didn't that require one of the fifty upgraded Saturn concepts we threw around to reach orbit?"

"THE. ONLY. WAY. IS. THE. REUSABLE. NUCLEAR. SHUTTLE."

"Brilliant!"
Ed Teller raises his hand with a model Orion.

"NO."

"But--"

"The answer is still no."

"What if we--"

"Double no."

"But the--"

"Absolutely not."

Re: the post;

It is a bit troubling that even the mostly-successful Soviet missions have some kind of failure that probably never gets officially reported until Glasnost. But, a landing is a landing. Funny how TTL's Soviet space program seems closer to what US science fiction writers of the time thought it was--you'll probably see a lot of people saying that the Soviet landing was the culmination of an intentional long and slow and economical and intelligently-planned program of steady development, instead of the ad-hoc office politics it really was.
 
Should the first cosmonaut happen to land on the Moon in early July 1976, I am sure it will be purely for engineering and mission planning considerations. Because absolutely nothing historically relevant was occurring about that time and the Soviets weren't terribly interested in scoring propaganda points, right?

...right?
WE CANNOT ALLOW A BICENTENNIAL GAP

If Congress wants Shuttle to get back to the Moon and beat the Soviets again, I could see some sort of early Shuttle-C, or possibly a mission assembled by multiple Shuttles like Early Lunar Access...
 
There are several Grade-B through ZZZ movies that show a standard Orbiter being used to travel to the Moon. Please God, no. Just don't send a winged spaceship that can't break out of LEO on a round trip to the friggin Moon. It just doesn't belong there.
Moonfall Shuttle.jpg
 
Ed Teller raises his hand with a model Orion.

"NO."

"But--"

"The answer is still no."

"What if we--"

"Double no."

"But the--"

"Absolutely not."
This is why we can't have nice things. Because when people want them, they're told "double no" and "absolutely not". Maybe I should go make my own timeline, with Orions! And blackjack! And hookers! In fact, forget the blackjack and hookers!

WE CANNOT ALLOW A BICENTENNIAL GAP
This is why the only answer is the RNS. Because you put it into its normal orbit and then light-off for home, with the radiation from the engine killing those pesky cosmonauts on the surface due to Lunar surface being in the lethal-dose range of the RNS's un-shielded NERVA when in its intended operating orbit.

If Congress wants Shuttle to get back to the Moon and beat the Soviets again, I could see some sort of early Shuttle-C, or possibly a mission assembled by multiple Shuttles like Early Lunar Access...
If you start talking about Early Lunar Access, you're going to get space station talk. I wonder if launching Skylab B as an improvised staging point remains an option TTL.

There are several Grade-B through ZZZ movies that show a standard Orbiter being used to travel to the Moon. Please God, no. Just don't send a winged spaceship that can't break out of LEO on a round trip to the friggin Moon. It just doesn't belong there.
You don't want a thrilling re-enactment of the season finale of For All Mankind's second season, where two winged orbiters have a dogfight in orbit above the dark side of the Moon?

(No one should want to see that re-enacted.)
 
Close. But no Cigar.

But at least the N1 has (almost) ironed out its kinks. Granted, flight-by-flight debugging does mean time's needed for that, that that Mishin actually managed to have here.

Shame about the LOK messing up with the BO separation, another quick-fix there?

Of course the question of whether or not L3M gets to shine here is still kinda open at this point. I want it to, but guess I have to wait and see...

I think there was a tl on here about the use of Shuttle-C to launch a lunar program recently;)

You may be referring to Dawn of the Dragon by @e of pi
 
It will shock you
But NASA study several times the use to launch the space Shuttle to Moon orbit
Last study was in 1992, consider feasible could bring a reusable lunar lander in payload bay
but the issue it needed a full loaded Extrenal Tank in orbit to dock on to
means to launch around 700 ton of tank and propellant’s for that….

it far easier to modified STS into SLS or Jupiter booster with capsule and lander like Apollo !
 
Yeah. If I was NASA and was told to "Go back to moon", I'd be thinking of something like SLS/Jupiter/Ares IV/whatever. Shuttle derived booster.

Maybe Shuttle-C if I am sufficiently far enough along on STS.

Going to the moon is all about payload and a shuttle is heavy. And has stuff you don't need on the lunar trip [-cough- wings -cough-]

If I can't do that? Probably some form of EOR mission profile with multiple launch assembly of a stack in orbit. Still not taking a shuttle.
 
I've always thought the Shuttle launched EOR architecture could do with some love. You can do a lot with a Shuttle bay scaled payload as your building blocks and like Boldy Going explored with Enterprise what you need to "save" the STS is a busy enough manifest to a. amortise the fixed costs down to something reasonable and b. justify the investment you need to get STS the enhancements it requires to be safer and financially sustainable (liquid fly back boosters, super lightweight tank etc.)
 

Garrison

Donor
There are several Grade-B through ZZZ movies that show a standard Orbiter being used to travel to the Moon. Please God, no. Just don't send a winged spaceship that can't break out of LEO on a round trip to the friggin Moon. It just doesn't belong there.
View attachment 732465
Depends on the shuttle :) :

Pathfinder.jpg

The nuclear powered Pathfinder from 'For All mankind'.
 
I've always thought the Shuttle launched EOR architecture could do with some love. You can do a lot with a Shuttle bay scaled payload as your building blocks and like Boldy Going explored with Enterprise what you need to "save" the STS is a busy enough manifest to a. amortise the fixed costs down to something reasonable and b. justify the investment you need to get STS the enhancements it requires to be safer and financially sustainable (liquid fly back boosters, super lightweight tank etc.)
Stretching the ET and fitting the Orbiter with cryogenic propellant-transfer gear are also fun possibilities—the latter was planned IOTL, before STS-107 threw a wrench in everything.
 
Lest I continue contributing to any thread derailing -- and to clear up any potential confusion I might've caused -- the Reusable Nuclear Shuttle was the best part of the IPP portion of the Integrated Program Plan which made monthly cargo runs between Earth and the Moon. It was not a nuclear-powered Space Shuttle, as at the time of the IPP, the Space Shuttle was usually referred to as the Orbiter. Except when it wasn't. Because NASA had a lot of ideas at the time and only so many names to go around, to say nothing of the IPP's ignominious self-immolation.

It will shock you
But NASA study several times the use to launch the space Shuttle to Moon orbit
Last study was in 1992, consider feasible could bring a reusable lunar lander in payload bay
but the issue it needed a full loaded Extrenal Tank in orbit to dock on to
means to launch around 700 ton of tank and propellant’s for that….
This reminds of the "assume a can opener" joke regarding economists. Though we'd probably all like it if we did have a can opener capable of multi-launching 700 tons of remass and tankage.

I've always thought the Shuttle launched EOR architecture could do with some love. You can do a lot with a Shuttle bay scaled payload as your building blocks and like Boldy Going explored with Enterprise what you need to "save" the STS is a busy enough manifest to a. amortise the fixed costs down to something reasonable and b. justify the investment you need to get STS the enhancements it requires to be safer and financially sustainable (liquid fly back boosters, super lightweight tank etc.)
The problem there, though, is that it's really easy to enter a feedback loop of needing to fly the STS enough to justify spending the money to make the STS safe, which was the problem OTL. As once you start flying the Shuttle in its OTL configuration, you're guaranteed to have a potential catastrophic accident, and once that happens -- and most likely lost a crew in the process -- your flight rate will tank to the point nothing will be amortizable.

That said, cosmonauts on the Moon during the Bicentennial is the type of event that should shake loose enough money to, at the very least, guarantee that the Shuttle's not the accident-waiting-to-happen it was OTL. It might even shake loose enough money to put something like RS-IC back on the table, which is where the real potential for shenanigans begins.

Depends on the shuttle :) :
<Snip!>
The nuclear powered Pathfinder from 'For All mankind'.
The less we talk about that thing, the better. Shun the abomination! SHUN I SAY!

...how telling is it that I am unsure whether it should be shunned for existing in general or specifically for its lack of a vertical stabilizer?

Stretching the ET and fitting the Orbiter with cryogenic propellant-transfer gear are also fun possibilities—the latter was planned IOTL, before STS-107 threw a wrench in everything.
That does, indeed, open up fun possibilities. Shuttle EOR concepts certainly don't lack for mission design potential.
 
The problem there, though, is that it's really easy to enter a feedback loop of needing to fly the STS enough to justify spending the money to make the STS safe, which was the problem OTL. As once you start flying the Shuttle in its OTL configuration, you're guaranteed to have a potential catastrophic accident, and once that happens -- and most likely lost a crew in the process -- your flight rate will tank to the point nothing will be amortizable.

STS-51 was a fluke and can be very easily butterflied away but STS-107 is a fundamental part of the architecture as built and unless you undergo a serious upgrade program it's a matter of when not if. But it didn't happen until the 113th flight of the program and if you had got the flight rate up to 15 or 20 in the late 80's by the time the dice roll snake eyes you could get the STS viewed not as an expensive and dangerous wrong turn but a flawed but fundamentally sound program that had identified safety problems that are worth fixing. That's something Boldly Going delivered via their early space station but you could also deliver via an early 80's EOR moon program.
 
STS-51 was a fluke and can be very easily butterflied away but STS-107 is a fundamental part of the architecture as built and unless you undergo a serious upgrade program it's a matter of when not if. But it didn't happen until the 113th flight of the program and if you had got the flight rate up to 15 or 20 in the late 80's by the time the dice roll snake eyes you could get the STS viewed not as an expensive and dangerous wrong turn but a flawed but fundamentally sound program that had identified safety problems that are worth fixing. That's something Boldly Going delivered via their early space station but you could also deliver via an early 80's EOR moon program.
Well STS-51 could have been avoided if NASA hadn't been reckless with ignoring the below zero temperatures on the O-Rings of the Boosters, there was also always the odds of STS-27 not being lucky with the damage it got in OTL and suffering the fate of STS-107.

If STS-27 had went up in flames then I wouldn't have been surprised with Congress ending the Shuttle program by the late 1980s.
 
This has been discussed before the post Columbia decision to terminate shuttle once ISS was "complete" wasn't just a consequence of the loss of an orbiter in a much harder to fix way than Challenger but it was at the same time as 15 years of post Challenger ops had shown that the STS failed on it's basic objective of reducing the cost of access to space. You needed the STS to fail on both safety and cost to get NASA and the US government to abandon the sunk cost fallacy and u-turn. It was only when you had met both criteria that junking it as soon as practical and going for expendables that were cost competitive and easier to make safe seemed sensible. Thus Constellation, Ares and Orion.
If you butterfly Challenger by either have STS-27 or another early mission suffer a Columbia then the second part hasn't been proven so you are much more likely to see NASA learn a different lesson. That they cheaped out on development* because of the OMB and have built something unsafe which they now need to (expensively) fix but the basic idea of reusability to reduce costs of space access remains NASA policy. The Reagan administration isn't going to have a problem with a "blame Carter"** strategy and it need a cheap and reliable launcher for SDI and the NASP wasn't going to be it.

*Which they already knew and privately admitted
**I know TAOS was chosen under Nixon and Carter inherited but Carter oversaw the development and Reagan always loved blaming him
 
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