Alternate History Combat Aircraft

True, but in BoB (where the 111 was at least somewhat “competitive“), the British were firing 303s. It wouldn’t have been too difficult to armor up the stepped cockpits a bit, and at least give the 111 crews a chance. The Ju88s had the same issue in protection and defensive firepower. Although with those water cooled engines, being hosed down with 303s would probably ruin your day regardless.

ric350
 
First off, dump the MG 15 at the outset. They are rifle caliber, had a rate of fire around 1000 rpm, but used 75 round drums. This meant that the gunners spent more time reloading than shooting.
Go with belt fed MG 81, or better yet, the MG 131 and get some heavier hitting power. These changes could have been made in time for the BoB.
Also replace the upper flexible gun mount with a turret, though this would require a significant design change.
Finally, I think going with the all glazed nose was a mistake. While visibility was increased, it left the crew vulnerable to enemy fire. I think they should have kept the original ”stepped” cockpit, which would have given the crew more protection and or even armored.

ric350
To be fair, the glazed nose is not a problem - if the enemy uses .50 cal or 20mm it can penetrate a 'normal' nose too. I concur with replacing the MG15 with MG131. Bombers need some weapon that fighters respect, and a few 8mm (7.92, but don't be pedantic) MGs don't qualify.
True, but in BoB (where the 111 was at least somewhat “competitive“), the British were firing 303s. It wouldn’t have been too difficult to armor up the stepped cockpits a bit, and at least give the 111 crews a chance. The Ju88s had the same issue in protection and defensive firepower. Although with those water cooled engines, being hosed down with 303s would probably ruin your day regardless.

ric350
I was going to make a pic with all your ideas combined but I found a line drawing that already had them, I think it's a design for a late model He-III that never went into production.
He-111.png

I did erase the glass panels in the nose for a little extra protection as suggested.
Thinking of redoing the tail with a tail gunner's position.
 
I was going to make a pic with all your ideas combined but I found a line drawing that already had them, I think it's a design for a late model He-III that never went into production.
Do you need additional crew with that increased armament? Im also not sure if you can fit a side gunner into that stepped nose right infront of the main flight deck. Its surely not going to be a popular position. Otherwise a realy awesome idea! German bomber procurement was a bit of a mess and I can totally see them trying something like this instead of going with the massive overhauls of the Do-17 family (though I expect that airframe to have more potential overall than the -111).
 

Pangur

Donor
I was going to make a pic with all your ideas combined but I found a line drawing that already had them, I think it's a design for a late model He-III that never went into production.
View attachment 731072
I did erase the glass panels in the nose for a little extra protection as suggested.
Thinking of redoing the tail with a tail gunner's position.
That is rather close to what I had visualized / The only differences was no side positions as that would have inceased the crew size & I had not thought out that cockpit that much beyond thinking that some thing had to change
 
Do you need additional crew with that increased armament? Im also not sure if you can fit a side gunner into that stepped nose right infront of the main flight deck. Its surely not going to be a popular position. Otherwise a realy awesome idea! German bomber procurement was a bit of a mess and I can totally see them trying something like this instead of going with the massive overhauls of the Do-17 family (though I expect that airframe to have more potential overall than the -111).
That is rather close to what I had visualized / The only differences was no side positions as that would have inceased the crew size & I had not thought out that cockpit that much beyond thinking that some thing had to change
The design appears to have two side gunners on both sides but I think the forward side guns were to be manned by the co-pilot and the bombardier which is too much work for both crew men IMO.

So here's a new design with a tail gunner and no side gunners.
He-111+.png

Was going to give it twin rudder tail but I found a pic of a post war Tupolov design that I liked so I used the tail from that plane instead but I'm going to make another pic later with a more "German" looking tail.
 

Pangur

Donor
The design appears to have two side gunners on both sides but I think the forward side guns were to be manned by the co-pilot and the bombardier which is too much work for both crew men IMO.

So here's a new design with a tail gunner and no side gunners.
View attachment 731095
Was going to give it twin rudder tail but I found a pic of a post war Tupolov design that I liked so I used the tail from that plane instead but I'm going to make another pic later with a more "German" looking tail.
Thank you, that purrfect!!
 
The design appears to have two side gunners on both sides but I think the forward side guns were to be manned by the co-pilot and the bombardier which is too much work for both crew men IMO.

So here's a new design with a tail gunner and no side gunners.
View attachment 731095
Was going to give it twin rudder tail but I found a pic of a post war Tupolov design that I liked so I used the tail from that plane instead but I'm going to make another pic later with a more "German" looking tail.
cursed!
 
The design appears to have two side gunners on both sides but I think the forward side guns were to be manned by the co-pilot and the bombardier which is too much work for both crew men IMO.
I believe later model 111s did have the side guns just behind the wing. However those side guns in the nose would be problematic. I can see the prop/engine being accidentally hit by the gunner(s).

ric350
 
I believe later model 111s did have the side guns just behind the wing. However those side guns in the nose would be problematic. I can see the prop/engine being accidentally hit by the gunner(s).

ric350
I agree and having crewmen doing double duties is not a good idea.
 
The design appears to have two side gunners on both sides but I think the forward side guns were to be manned by the co-pilot and the bombardier which is too much work for both crew men IMO.

So here's a new design with a tail gunner and no side gunners.
View attachment 731095
Was going to give it twin rudder tail but I found a pic of a post war Tupolov design that I liked so I used the tail from that plane instead but I'm going to make another pic later with a more "German" looking tail.
This Alt He-111 looks like a mini B-17
 
It's the tail, it came from a post war tupolov jet bomber that was probably inspired by the B-17 or 29.
The stepped nose with the glazed gun position is also quite B-17ish.

Depending on when in the timeline the design is set I could see the germans trying to go with FDSL 131s as bomber defensive armaments. They are very aerodynamic and if you mount them further forward the limited "elevation" becomes less of a problem. Mounted in the back they could also double as a tail gun position on planes that otherwise dont have enough space for that.
 
Would you please forgive me for being a downright slovenly Casual if I say that one hasn’t the faintest clue regarding Luft 46 either - it sounds like some sort of 1980s music group!
 
Would you please forgive me for being a downright slovenly Casual if I say that one hasn’t the faintest clue regarding Luft 46 either - it sounds like some sort of 1980s music group!
Oh you are in for a treat! "Luft 46" refers to german experimental designs from the very late war, very often pretty outlandish napkin drawing stuff that would not have been realy pratical in reality.
It takes its name from a very famous archive of such concepts named after a kind of alternate history where the war drags on longer and germany can actually implement some of those things:
There is also a japanese equivalent:
 
Oh you are in for a treat! "Luft 46" refers to german experimental designs from the very late war, very often pretty outlandish napkin drawing stuff that would not have been realy pratical in reality.
It takes its name from a very famous archive of such concepts named after a kind of alternate history where the war drags on longer and germany can actually implement some of those things:
There is also a japanese equivalent:
Looking at that sight takes me back 20 years.
 
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