The original design brief for which was for an improved Implacable Class but was found to be inadequate for likely future aircraft so ended up as an all new design. A design that proved to be inadequate for future aircraft.
TBF, figuring out how much carrier aircraft would improve in only 10 years was beyond anyone
Is it reasonable to expect the designers to guess the growth of aircraft to such an extent?
Is it reasonable to expect a 1938 "follow on" design to not favour increases rather than make weight savings? They could have been bulged out from the very start with no fundamental design change. Knowing that was to happen a longer above the water, wider below it adaptation offers means of regaining the space lost by surrendering a deck to hanger space. Looking across the Invincible sub-classes it is clear that a great deal of flexibility was available in a year or alterations. I think this poor return on the extra time highlights how stretched the admiralty and shipbuilding teams were with other projects.
Is it reasonable to expect to be able to add an extra hanger deck to a carrier design and more than double the size of the air group while still keeping to a planned 23,000 ton standard displacement?
Another want to take a stab out the displacement of a submarine to carry 3 to 4 Saunders-Roe SR.A/1 type fighters using late 40s and early 50s tech?
At the same time Britain was designing and building the Audacious Class the Americans were designing and building the Midway Class.
The second aircraft type aboard on completion was the Barracuda with a height of over 15ft. They knew they were cutting corners by aircraft in development, let alone ten years away.
To my knowledge the British military shipyards could build any hull that could be built by any other nation, and in terms of construction cost and speed were second only to the Kaiser Shipyards in the US. Engines and armor metallurgy was different and in some cases inferior (in other cases superior), but that had little to do with the shipyards. They seem to have been about as good as most shipyards could be with WW2 methods.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
That wasn't what necessarily what he was asking. I think what he was asking was could they build the Implacables significantly larger than they were and still be able to build everything else they were building/planning at the same time OTL in terms of shipyard space and not running out of armor plate. Because there are only so many slipways of such size and only so much capacity to make armor plate
By reducing the armour in the hanger walls to just splinter protection the Implacables could probably have had full height hanger decks.
The Implacables were meant to operate in areas where splinter protection wouldn't have cut it (Land based planes being stronger in bomb load was a valid fear)
In that case no. Unless you cut back on the battleship program Britain was running low on slipways capable of taking large ships and very low on armour plate. Post 1938 and rearmament really kicking in you need to rob Peter to pay Paul.
Is there any hope of small fast boat tender ships surviving until the end of 20 th century?
These tenders can carry and support small boat operations in overseas areas for countries that lack large amphibious assault ships or aircraft carriers and maybe carry a couple of helicopters of their own
These tenders can carry and support small boat operations in overseas areas for countries that lack large amphibious assault ships or aircraft carriers and maybe carry a couple of helicopters of their own
I said reduce the thickness of the armoured hanger walls not the decks. The armoured decks only gave limited protection anyway as the aircraft elevators weren't protected.
For an example of how not armouring the hanger walls would effect things look at HMS Unicorn. She had an armoured flight deck but not the armoured box hangers of the Illustrious and Implacable classes and had two full height hangers on 14,000 tons.
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Sounds like a slightly larger River class OPV. A hanger and deck allows you to operate a couple of helicopters. They have small boat facilities either side of the hanger. A second pair of davits each side and greater stores and accommodation seems doable. Why fast when you have helicopters? What could this ship do that a River couldn't?
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I have tried to get the Dunkerque into smallest size possible. Or well, more like a Dunkerque-Deutschland fusion.
I think I'll try to lighten it more.
Edit: by dropping a bunch of armour (main belt dropping to 150mm) I could get it to 20.343 t light; 21.490 t standard; 23.151 t normal; 24.480 t full load.
Still heavier than I was looking for but better I guess.
I suppose I can drop some speed and/or range as well as secondary turrets (the secondaries are actually supposed to be OTL Dunkerque layout of quads aft twins front).
I saw on Dunkerque class' wikipedia page that the original design idea for them was 17.500 tons with protection against 8" gun fire. Does anyone know where more detailed information on that could be found?
I think I'll try to lighten it more.
Displacement:
22.250 t light; 23.438 t standard; 25.189 t normal; 26.590 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721,78 ft / 721,78 ft x 98,43 ft x 27,89 ft (normal load)
220,00 m / 220,00 m x 30,00 m x 8,50 m
Armament:
8 - 12,00" / 305 mm guns (2x4 guns), 864,00lbs / 391,90kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 5,10" / 130 mm guns (4x3 guns), 66,33lbs / 30,08kg shells, 1932 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
4 - 5,10" / 130 mm guns (1x4 guns), 66,33lbs / 30,08kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
8 - 1,50" / 38,1 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,69lbs / 0,77kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 7.987 lbs / 3.623 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8,86" / 225 mm 469,16 ft / 143,00 m 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 0,79" / 20 mm 469,16 ft / 143,00 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers %100 of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,18" / 30 mm 469,16 ft / 143,00 m 5,51 ft / 1,68 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 9,84" / 250 mm 12,2" / 310 mm
2nd: 5,31" / 135 mm 3,54" / 90 mm 4,72" / 120 mm
3rd: 5,31" / 135 mm 3,54" / 90 mm 4,72" / 120 mm
- Armour deck: 4,53" / 115 mm, Conning tower: 10,63" / 270 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 72.280 shp / 53.921 Kw = 27,00 kts
Range 7.850nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.152 tons
Complement:
999 - 1.299
Cost:
£8,709 million / $34,837 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 998 tons, %4,0
Armour: 8.205 tons, %32,6
- Belts: 2.233 tons, %8,9
- Torpedo bulkhead: 113 tons, %0,4
- Armament: 1.881 tons, %7,5
- Armour Deck: 3.780 tons, %15,0
- Conning Tower: 197 tons, %0,8
Machinery: 2.133 tons, %8,5
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.914 tons, %43,3
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.938 tons, %11,7
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, %0,0
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
44.892 lbs / 20.362 Kg = 52,0 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 6,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
Metacentric height 6,4 ft / 2,0 m
Roll period: 16,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,38
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,41
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,445
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,56 ft / 9,01 m
- Forecastle (%20): 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Mid (%50): 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Quarterdeck (%15): 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Stern: 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Average freeboard: 19,66 ft / 5,99 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): %74,1
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): %161,8
Waterplane Area: 45.132 Square feet or 4.193 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): %123
Structure weight / hull surface area: 175 lbs/sq ft or 857 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,39
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
22.250 t light; 23.438 t standard; 25.189 t normal; 26.590 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721,78 ft / 721,78 ft x 98,43 ft x 27,89 ft (normal load)
220,00 m / 220,00 m x 30,00 m x 8,50 m
Armament:
8 - 12,00" / 305 mm guns (2x4 guns), 864,00lbs / 391,90kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 5,10" / 130 mm guns (4x3 guns), 66,33lbs / 30,08kg shells, 1932 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
4 - 5,10" / 130 mm guns (1x4 guns), 66,33lbs / 30,08kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
8 - 1,50" / 38,1 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,69lbs / 0,77kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 7.987 lbs / 3.623 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8,86" / 225 mm 469,16 ft / 143,00 m 11,91 ft / 3,63 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 0,79" / 20 mm 469,16 ft / 143,00 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers %100 of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1,18" / 30 mm 469,16 ft / 143,00 m 5,51 ft / 1,68 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 9,84" / 250 mm 12,2" / 310 mm
2nd: 5,31" / 135 mm 3,54" / 90 mm 4,72" / 120 mm
3rd: 5,31" / 135 mm 3,54" / 90 mm 4,72" / 120 mm
- Armour deck: 4,53" / 115 mm, Conning tower: 10,63" / 270 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 72.280 shp / 53.921 Kw = 27,00 kts
Range 7.850nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3.152 tons
Complement:
999 - 1.299
Cost:
£8,709 million / $34,837 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 998 tons, %4,0
Armour: 8.205 tons, %32,6
- Belts: 2.233 tons, %8,9
- Torpedo bulkhead: 113 tons, %0,4
- Armament: 1.881 tons, %7,5
- Armour Deck: 3.780 tons, %15,0
- Conning Tower: 197 tons, %0,8
Machinery: 2.133 tons, %8,5
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.914 tons, %43,3
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.938 tons, %11,7
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, %0,0
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
44.892 lbs / 20.362 Kg = 52,0 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 6,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
Metacentric height 6,4 ft / 2,0 m
Roll period: 16,3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,38
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,41
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,445
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26,87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29,56 ft / 9,01 m
- Forecastle (%20): 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Mid (%50): 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Quarterdeck (%15): 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Stern: 18,80 ft / 5,73 m
- Average freeboard: 19,66 ft / 5,99 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): %74,1
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): %161,8
Waterplane Area: 45.132 Square feet or 4.193 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): %123
Structure weight / hull surface area: 175 lbs/sq ft or 857 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,39
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Edit: by dropping a bunch of armour (main belt dropping to 150mm) I could get it to 20.343 t light; 21.490 t standard; 23.151 t normal; 24.480 t full load.
Still heavier than I was looking for but better I guess.
I suppose I can drop some speed and/or range as well as secondary turrets (the secondaries are actually supposed to be OTL Dunkerque layout of quads aft twins front).
I saw on Dunkerque class' wikipedia page that the original design idea for them was 17.500 tons with protection against 8" gun fire. Does anyone know where more detailed information on that could be found?
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Driftless
Donor
If you drop armor and speed, what's it's purpose then? Wouldn't it be to slow to be a cruiser killer, and risky as a Panzershiff chaser too?