Deleted member 147978
Well anyways, this thread has reached 100 comments.
Everybody, let all of us give @CELTICEMPIRE a hand for crafting and delivering an interesting KMT China TL.
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沒有國民黨就沒有中國, Without the Kuomintang there would be no China, A Republic of China Story
- Thread starter CELTICEMPIRE
- Start date
Well anyways, this thread has reached 100 comments.
Everybody, let all of us give @CELTICEMPIRE a hand for crafting and delivering an interesting KMT China TL.
👏
Thank you! I've had the idea in my head for a KMT China TL for years but I couldn't figure out whether the PoD would be before or after WWII, or how the KMT would win their victory until recently.
Well anyways, this thread has reached 100 comments.
Everybody, let all of us give @CELTICEMPIRE a hand for crafting and delivering an interesting KMT China TL.
👏
It will be a while before China gets any carriers. After all, the PRC didn't have any until 2012.
China TTL is beginning to build its own cruisers. Chinese tanks at this point are mainly imported from America.
Lol!
Well, my idea for Chinese carriers here is that Chiang couldn't let Nehru have the "prestige" of having a carrier after the INS Vikrant is purchased by India while he doesn't and that he decides to purchase a light carrier from either the Brits or the Americans.
Well, I don't want to spoil anything, so I won't say when China will get its first carrier yet.
What will Sino-German relations look like in this timeline? I have found a article saying that the Bundeswehr sent military advisors to Taiwan during the 60s and 70s. In addition, what’s Alexander Von Falkenhausen and John Rabe up to?
Edit: https://www.hoover.org/news/chiang-kai-sheks-secret-military-advisers-unveiled
“Beginning in the early 1960s, as the Hoover Archives’ newly opened Yue-che Wang Papers reveal, Chiang hired former German officers as his “personal advisers” to train, lecture, and assess the Taiwanese military forces. Led by Oskar Munzel, a highly decorated Generalmajor in the Wehrmacht during World War II and General der Kampftruppen of the Bundeswehr who commanded all German army combat troops after the war; and Paul Jordan and Kurt Kauffmann, they all played a crucial role in reforming Taiwan’s armored forces, bridging military cooperation between Bonn and Taipei, and transforming the mind-set of Chiang’s military echelons. The German group was still at work well into the mid-1970s, after Taiwan was expelled from the United Nations and Bonn normalized its relations with the People’s Republic of China. It came to a stop only after Chiang Kai-shek died in April 1975.”
Edit: https://www.hoover.org/news/chiang-kai-sheks-secret-military-advisers-unveiled
“Beginning in the early 1960s, as the Hoover Archives’ newly opened Yue-che Wang Papers reveal, Chiang hired former German officers as his “personal advisers” to train, lecture, and assess the Taiwanese military forces. Led by Oskar Munzel, a highly decorated Generalmajor in the Wehrmacht during World War II and General der Kampftruppen of the Bundeswehr who commanded all German army combat troops after the war; and Paul Jordan and Kurt Kauffmann, they all played a crucial role in reforming Taiwan’s armored forces, bridging military cooperation between Bonn and Taipei, and transforming the mind-set of Chiang’s military echelons. The German group was still at work well into the mid-1970s, after Taiwan was expelled from the United Nations and Bonn normalized its relations with the People’s Republic of China. It came to a stop only after Chiang Kai-shek died in April 1975.”
In terms of the Chinese Navy and by extension a carrier. IMO, there are two reasons to have a carrier.
1) Pride *Look at us, we have a carrier, therefore we are a world power", i.e. somewhere between France's OTL situation and India's (with Thailand being the ultimate example here_
2) We actually have a carrier force to accomplish something.
3) Showing the Flag in a strong way
For #1, sure, if the US is willing to sell them one of the WWII Carriers that were mothballed/scrapped iOTL.
For #2, it *really* depends on who their enemies are. If the Soviet Union (/Russia) are a significant Military threat, the Navy will end up as a relatively small force, not all that different than OTL. On the other end, if Japan is the major threat, yes, they'll get carriers. This is somewhat similar to Germany in Reluctant Fuhrer, where Germany turned around to anti-Soviet alliance and, since it was facing a Land Power in the USSR, reduced its Navy to functionally less than Italy. It is also possible if China has overseas commitments (Strong alliance with an East African nation against someone?)
(If India is a major threat, I'm not sure, Vietnam, they would be useful for flanking the Vietnamese. For a Korean Power, no idea. Philippines, Probably a Navy)
For #3, that's probably significant disputes over the South China Sea, I have *no* idea what the ROC claimed in the South China Sea..
1) Pride *Look at us, we have a carrier, therefore we are a world power", i.e. somewhere between France's OTL situation and India's (with Thailand being the ultimate example here_
2) We actually have a carrier force to accomplish something.
3) Showing the Flag in a strong way
For #1, sure, if the US is willing to sell them one of the WWII Carriers that were mothballed/scrapped iOTL.
For #2, it *really* depends on who their enemies are. If the Soviet Union (/Russia) are a significant Military threat, the Navy will end up as a relatively small force, not all that different than OTL. On the other end, if Japan is the major threat, yes, they'll get carriers. This is somewhat similar to Germany in Reluctant Fuhrer, where Germany turned around to anti-Soviet alliance and, since it was facing a Land Power in the USSR, reduced its Navy to functionally less than Italy. It is also possible if China has overseas commitments (Strong alliance with an East African nation against someone?)
(If India is a major threat, I'm not sure, Vietnam, they would be useful for flanking the Vietnamese. For a Korean Power, no idea. Philippines, Probably a Navy)
For #3, that's probably significant disputes over the South China Sea, I have *no* idea what the ROC claimed in the South China Sea..
九, Victory
-Chiang Kai-shek, October 10, 1953
The Northeast saw the longest fighting of any region of China after the resumption of the Civil War. By 1953 it was the last place where Communists had any significant forces. Communist generals Luo Ronghuan and Liu Yalou fought well against Nationalist Du Yuming over the years. But time was running out. The Communists had been defeated in the rest of the country, allowing for Nationalist soldiers to be redirected to the Northeast. Xing’an and Heilongjiang Provinces were still mostly under Communist control, and Communist forces controlled parts of Liaobei, Nenjiang, and Hejiang Provinces as well. The Chinese air force flew over Communist-held territory in January, dropping leaflets. The leaflets proclaimed the impending Nationalist victory and urged Communist fighters to surrender and spare their lives. In March, Qiqihar fell to the Nationalists under Du Yuming. Li Mi’s forces captured all of Liaobei Province.
(Communists in Northeast China)
In June, Du Yuming defeated the outnumbered defenders of Bei’an. Some Communists continued to put up a fight in Dedu County for a few more days. Most of the rest retreated into the Soviet Union. From June to September, Nationalist forces under Li Mi and Chiang Ching-kuo secured Xing’an. Their last engagement with Communist forces was when 1,500 Communists were surrounded by 50,000 Nationalists in Oroqen Banner and defeated on September 30. Nationalist troops quickly started occupying the land along the border with the Soviet Union. Forts and other defenses would be constructed in order to keep Heilongjiang Province secure. The Communist resistance to the Chinese government went underground after this point. Though the Civil War had not officially ended yet, Chiang Kai-shek claimed he had won the war. On Double Ten Day he gave a speech in which he proclaimed the victory of the Three Principles of the People [1] over Communism.
(Chiang Kai-shek's son Chiang Ching-kuo participated in the Civil War)
In total, 55,000 Communist soldiers had fled to Mongolia, the Soviet Union, or North Korea. Their leader was Deng Xiaoping, who set up base in Eastern Mongolia. Over the following years, Communist sympathizers from China would join them. After all, there were millions of Chinese who saw them as freedom fighters. They would, from time to time, launch raids into China. Some of them would end up being integrated into the militaries of their new home countries. The Soviet Union would use the Chinese Communists to crack down on unrest in Eastern Europe. While the exiled Communists still sought to overthrow the government of Chiang Kai-shek, the Soviet Union was losing interest in helping them realize that goal. Joseph Stalin died in March, and the USSR was under new leadership that was more conciliatory towards China.
(Deng Xiaoping)
Chiang Kai-shek announced his plan for land reform. He claimed that by 1959 every farmer would own his own land. Some believed him, others did not. In November, thousands of landlords in his native Zhejiang were given compensation for having their land distributed to peasants. This compensation came in the form of government jobs or shares in state-owned enterprises. These steps helped ensure his continued support from the left-wing of the Kuomintang. Much of the Chinese populace was unsure of whether or not Chiang actually intended on following through with his promise. Many peasants who had relocated because of the provisions of the 1952 Farm Act discovered that the lands they were given were not great for growing crops. Much of the country was still in ruins. There was still much to do.
1: Nationalism, Democracy, and Welfare/Livelihood or Socialism
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Same if not more than the PRC. The current PRC claim is generally seen to be derived from the ROC one, and they made their claim in 1947. ROC documents have their SCS claim noted as the eleven dash line, for what it’s worth.
IIRC the original ROC dashed lines map claimed a bit more than the current 9DL (or rather the PRC settled the Gulf of Tonkin maritime borders with Vietnam, the ROC never did).
Deleted member 2186
Well think West Germany can bring back old ties with the ROC that where ended due to then Nazi Germany selecting Japan over China.
ROC claimed the Paracel and Spratly Islands before the PoD.
There's really not a lot going on between Germany and China at the moment. Diplomatic relations have been reestablished with West Germany after the war ended (China declared war on Germany in 1941 but was focused on fighting Japan). Von Falkenhausen is doing the same things he was OTL, and Rabe died in 1950.
I'm just saying, if the Chinese ever need military advisors or industrial experts to help speed up the country's modernization, there would be plenty of former Wehrmacht officers and unemployed engineers ready to step in.
And now that the war is finally wrapping up, we can focus on the new path China takes when it's all under Chiang's leadership.
You mean the same Soviets who were aiding the Communists and have several puppet states encroaching on Chinese territory?
Yeah? USSR OTL supplied and aid both sides? With the civil war over the Soviet would want a friendly China besides they can bond over anti colonialism.
Both sides are pragmatic enough to look the other way and form a somewhat trade beneficial relationship
The KMT and the Soviet Union actually had pretty good relations overall so this doesn't really mean much tbh