No GNW (or “Peter goes South”)

kham_coc

Banned
Clearly this is not where you are going, but in a scenario where Charles have to fight to get boots on Själand, England is neutral (busy, and George) the Dutch just too weak, backed by Russia (who in this scenario would love if Sweden controlled the sound), and with Denmark out the coalition against them quite negligible.
I could certainly see him having a fix idea about the final resolution of the Danish question - wheter that means choosing some Danish princess and crowning himself king of Denmark, or just annexation.

Certainly a problematic idea, see scania although with Denmark no longer a functional state some of thise problems would go away/don't matter.
And of course eventually England and the Dutch would complain.
But all of that wouldn't matter if Charles had the idea and got fixed on it.
Tbh with Russian backing I'm not even sure that they would lose it.
 
I understand that Sweden is the defender, but perfidious countries that attack Sweden also provide Karl XII a legitimate reason to punish them. This will be the 6th war in 70 years. In retrospect we know it is Denmark's last attempt, but Karl doesn't know that. Even if Sweden has a defensive focus, they would really like Fredrickstadt, since that is not just a strong point defending Norway, but also a base for the Danes to invade Sweden (which they did in 1788 laying siege to Gothenburg). Holstein isn't core Danish territory in same way, so maybe Holstein Gottorp (grey on map) gains sole control of the territories that were jointly held (yellow on the map) with Danish Holstein (orange south of northern red line) or maybe Holstein Gottorp gains Oldenburg. Nothing that major, just secure a border and strengthen an ally.
View attachment 711597

The jointly ruled area was noble estates, it’s why you see these regions slowly disappear over time in Schleswig as the Danish kings bought them out. But giving them to Gottorp would result in the local nobles going to Imperial Diet.
 
The jointly ruled area was noble estates, it’s why you see these regions slowly disappear over time in Schleswig as the Danish kings bought them out. But giving them to Gottorp would result in the local nobles going to Imperial Diet.
You got me confused, perhaps because I’m not quite getting the situation. If the are is jointly ruled by Denmark and Gottorp and Denmark “voluntarily” transfers its administrative rights to Gottorp, then what can be a reason for complaint? “These nasty Danes do not want to rule us anymore”? These estates are still noble estates with the same rights, they just have one ruler instead of two.

And what is the difference between this and Oldenburg-related swap you proposed?

Second question is about imperial intervention. My terminology may be wrong but as I understand, the imperial <whatever> in the region is Brunswick: judging by the Magdeburg case few years later: administration of the amtswas given to Brunswick and Prussia. Not exactly scenario which is going to work in this case unless the Emperor is ready to jump into a new major war on a wrong side of Europe (to avoid the temptation I’m presently considering an early death of Prince Eugene: his health never was too good 😢).
 
Peace is good…
43. Peace is good….
“Мир - хорошо, однако при том дремать не надлежит, чтоб не связали рук, да и солдаты чтоб не сделались бабами”. Петр Первый [1]

There is a certain danger in appointing a professional into position of responsibility and if this professional also has mental capacities, the danger is even greater” From “The manual for the absolute monarchs”
If somebody expected that after being appointed a Chairman of the Military Collegium Fieldmarshal Sheremetev is going to keep soending most of his time on construction of the luxury residencies, they were severely disappointed. He started with assembling most capable of his subordinates and formulating two top priority tasks:
1. Find out what is going on in the army and punish the guilty ones.
2. Based upon the recent experience, find out what should be changed and how.

A lot of things were not going well in the victorious army. Discipline and order maintained during the war became lax. Many officers were getting the fake paid “assignments” and actually spending time in their estates with a full knowledge of their commanders who had been pocketing part of the given money. Some commanders had been turning their soldiers into household servants, there were numerous cases of the misappropriated money assigned for purchasing everything from uniforms to the fodder (with the allegedly bought stuff being destroyed by everything possible causes including the thunderbolt), the soldiers were not getting their rations, the training was neglected, etc. [3] One of the underlying reasons was low salary of the officers: they simply could not maintain themselves without stealing. But even more fundamental problem was an absence of fear: too many problems had been pretty much ignored while the war was going on. The fact that the foreign officers still had been getting salaries three times higher than they Russian colleagues did not improve the general spirit.
Of course, a complete elimination of the problems was simply impossible but certain disciplinary measures had been taken :
  • Salaries of the Russian officers had been raised to the “foreign” level and from now on the foreigners would have to be taken into the Russian service without raising in a rank, as also was an earlier practice.​
  • The audit service was created with a purpose to conduct the regular reviews of the financial and supply affairs in the army units.​
  • Each regiment got an intendancy officer and the financial rights of the regimental commanders had been restricted. Of course, it was more or less expected that stealing os mot going away but now the regimental commander and regimental intendant were going to watch each other (and report on each other).​
  • Using soldiers as the household servants was strictly forbidden: an officer could have a single orderly.​
  • Instructions had been issued regarding the troops training and the regular reviews with a stress not on the parade ground “exercise” but on the tactical evolutions, aimed shooting (especially for the jagers) and bayonet charges. Similarly, the cavalry kept being trained on charging sword in hand and, in the case of the light units, scouting duties.​
  • Those found involved in the fake assignments schemas will face disciplinary punishments.​
With a lot of moaning and complaints army was getting back into the fighting shape.

The changes also were quite serious and initially raised Peter’s hackles because he loved the uniforms he introduced and the “western” appearance of his soldiers. But united front of the prominent generals clearly indicated that it is a good idea to listen and digest the accumulated experience.

The uniform had to be changed. A knee-long tight “kaftan” with a long camisole under it, short breeches, stockings of a heavy wool, shoes and a wool cape for a winter had been heavy, cumbersome, hot in a summer and inadequate for a winter. Not to mention that the stockings and shoes were not the best idea for the dirty roads (as in “the roads with a deep dirt”). The long hairs of the soldiers and big wigs of the officers were just inviting the lice. As Sheremetev remarked, “the soldier does not have a valet and should be ready for service immediately after he wakes up” [4]. The officers could retain the long hairs or the modest wigs and the soldiers had to have their hairs cur short. Having King Charles as an example proved to be quite convenient.
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A new uniform grudgingly approved by Peter [5] consisted of a wide short jacket which did not restrain the movements. Soldiers had been wearing the long wide trousers tucked into the boots. For the cold weather a warm vest would be worn under the jacket and for winter the soldiers had been getting the warm overcoats. Soldier’s tricornes had been replaced with the leather helmets.


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To accommodate Peter’s sensibilities, it was decided that for a while the Guards are going to preserve their existing uniform (as a token to their military glory and whatever else). They were not expected to march to a war in a near future, their main function being to guard the imperial family. Speaking of which, it was declared that the Grand Duchess Elena Karlovna is pregnant again. So was the newly-married Mme. Chernishova, nee Rzewskaya [6]. 😂
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The next big issue was a food preparation. During two previous wars the food had been prepared in the company’s kettles hanged over the fire. If an army was on a march, this would work only in a properly arranged camp (at best, in the morning before the march starts and by the end of a march) keeping soldiers hungry for most of the day (they were not carrying any food with them). Someone brought up an idea of making the field kitchens which would allow to cook food while the troops are on a march and to feed soldiers during the short breaks in a march or immediately by the end of a daily march.

The first practical design was based upon two-wheel cart with a copper cooking kettle being placed inside a bigger kettle filled with a water under which was a heating part. The “water bath” protected the food from being burned and stuck to the kettle.
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Almost immediately came the proposals of two-kettles system (one kettle for the soup, another for porridge) and various improvements of the original design. As a result, the army was getting a variety of the models because choice of a favorite (as combination of performance, cost, ability to produce in the needed numbers and easiness/reliability of exploitation) was going to take a considerable time.
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Military organization retained its division based structure but Vice-Chairman of the Military Collegium (general Weide) had been made a head of the “General Staff” responsible for the general military planning: making the maps, collecting intelligence, preparing plans of the future campaigns . Getting enough officers with an adequate education was problematic in a short term so in a reality its practical functions were quite limited and to a great degree the map making was substituted with purchase of the available maps abroad.

On a tactical level reports about the WoSS experience influenced some changes in the existing practices. It was recommended to use the jagers in a loose order in front of a battle orders and keep the battalion columns as a main formation for a following bayonet charge with a possibility of converting them into the lines if situation requires. Importance of the artillery fire was emphasized with each division getting 2 brigades of the field artillery (64 guns). Additionally, every division got an attached regiment of a light cavalry.

Taking into an account that the next war could be against the Western opponent possessing modern fortifications a corps of the engineers with siege artillery had been created to addition to the small commands of the sappers existing in each division.

Some of the mounted landmilitia regiments had been turned into the regiments of light cavalry.

Of course, there were numerous garrison units much less impacted by the new reforms and the limited manufacturing capacities for a while left them in the old uniforms all the way to the old Streltsy uniforms for the regiments which were not yet converted into the soldier regiments. The main issue was to provide them, especially those in the Siberian garrisons, with the new (or at least not too old) muskets.



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[1] “Peace is a good thing but you should not lose your vigilance because otherwise you’ll find your hands tied and your soldiers turned into the women.” Peter I. (Note: Living in the XVIII century Peter did not have an opportunity to get familiar with the issues of a gender equality and many other modern views 😢).
[2] Which was going against the fundamental principle “punish the innocent and award undeserving”
[3] This is from the actual revision reports made during the reign of CII (I did not have patience to read all of them so these are just few “jewels” found at the first few pages). There is no reason to assume that in Peter’s time the order was better, probably it was even worse.
[4] Potemkin
[5] If an idea was not of his own, he started with resistance but eventually got used to it and was ending up as considering it his own from the very beginning: after all, it was he who allowed implementation. 😜
[6] Comment for those closely familiar with the Russian culture: no relation to «поручик Ржевский». 😂Explanation to everybody else: lieutenant Rzewsky (поручик Ржевский) is a fictional hussar officer, a hero of a popular movie and then even more popular hero of the countless anecdotes.
 
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You got me confused, perhaps because I’m not quite getting the situation. If the are is jointly ruled by Denmark and Gottorp and Denmark “voluntarily” transfers its administrative rights to Gottorp, then what can be a reason for complaint? “These nasty Danes do not want to rule us anymore”? These estates are still noble estates with the same rights, they just have one ruler instead of two.

And what is the difference between this and Oldenburg-related swap you proposed?

I suggested that Denmark and Gottorp traded the northern most purple-blue area for the County of Oldenburg. He suggested that Gottorp gained the light yellow areas. As for why the nobility would be against, the fact that it was jointly ruled by both the Oldenburgs and Gottorps meant that de facto neither ruled it and the “Hosteinische Ritterschaft“de facto ended up sovereign rulers of their own territories. Replacing the two dukes with one would mean that they lost that sovereignty, but there’s also another factor under Danish absolutism thesecnobles also migrated to Denmark and established large estates there, if the Danish king no longer need to bribe them, their position will be much weaker in Denmark.

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Second question is about imperial intervention. My terminology may be wrong but as I understand, the imperial <whatever> in the region is Brunswick: judging by the Magdeburg case few years later: administration of the amtswas given to Brunswick and Prussia. Not exactly scenario which is going to work in this case unless the Emperor is ready to jump into a new major war on a wrong side of Europe (to avoid the temptation I’m presently considering an early death of Prince Eugene: his health never was too good 😢).

The emperor is not the problem in this context. The problem will be that this is princely infringement on a knightly rights. Of course it’s not impossible, but it will be a legal nightmare which the nobility will fight all the way, ironic the losses for the Danish king will be more far more minor, while he lose prestige, he gain far greater control over his possession in the region.

You pretty much legally has to get the Duke of Gottorp to become the sole sovereign prince (duke) of Schleswig-Holstein, while Oldenburg Schleswig is annexed into the Danish kingdom and Oldenburg Holstein is made into a new principality (Duchy of Altona?). De facto this reduce the Danish king to titular duke of Schleswig-Holstein like the dukes of Plön, Glúcksburg, Norburg, Beck etc, while the only sovereign prince of Schleswig-Holstein is the Gottorps. Of course Schleswig and Holstein will also have been reduced in size to the territories the Gottorps holds.

So again not impossible but it will be a legal minefield.
 
This map is also a bit more detailed in the matter of Holstein-Slesvig.



Edit: If I get it right Gluckstadt is among the jointly controlled areas. In that case, it would be a greater value to swap Tonder and Aabernraa with the jointly controlled areas in Holstein, as Gluckstadt brings tariffs from the Elbe that could be a significant source of coin.

Glückstadt was controlled by the Oldenburgs as it was founded by Christian IV.
 
I suggested that Denmark and Gottorp traded the northern most purple-blue area for the County of Oldenburg. He suggested that Gottorp gained the light yellow areas. As for why the nobility would be against, the fact that it was jointly ruled by both the Oldenburgs and Gottorps meant that de facto neither ruled it and the “Hosteinische Ritterschaft“de facto ended up sovereign rulers of their own territories. Replacing the two dukes with one would mean that they lost that sovereignty, but there’s also another factor under Danish absolutism thesecnobles also migrated to Denmark and established large estates there, if the Danish king no longer need to bribe them, their position will be much weaker in Denmark.

View attachment 711753



The emperor is not the problem in this context. The problem will be that this is princely infringement on a knightly rights. Of course it’s not impossible, but it will be a legal nightmare which the nobility will fight all the way, ironic the losses for the Danish king will be more far more minor, while he lose prestige, he gain far greater control over his possession in the region.

You pretty much legally has to get the Duke of Gottorp to become the sole sovereign prince (duke) of Schleswig-Holstein, while Oldenburg Schleswig is annexed into the Danish kingdom and Oldenburg Holstein is made into a new principality (Duchy of Altona?). De facto this reduce the Danish king to titular duke of Schleswig-Holstein like the dukes of Plön, Glúcksburg, Norburg, Beck etc, while the only sovereign prince of Schleswig-Holstein is the Gottorps. Of course Schleswig and Holstein will also have been reduced in size to the territories the Gottorps holds.

So again not impossible but it will be a legal minefield.
You keep confusing me with the excessive geography and terminology so, please bear with me:
1. Charles Frederick is a Duke of Holstein, which is imperial fief and a Duke of Schlezwig, which is Danish fief. Is “Gottorp” a combination of these two or something else?
2. During the GNW “Danish troops ravaged the Gottorp ducal share in the duchies during that war and conquered its northern portions in 1713, including the ancestral ducal seat Gottorp castle near Schleswig city in the homonymous duchy”. Was this his part of Schlezwig or what?
3. In 1721 FIV “officially withdrew this fief”. As I understand, simply annexed the Schlezwig part.
4. Do I understand correctly that by “Oldenburg county” you mean the future Duchy of Oldenburg which is in Germany and had been owned by FIV? If yes, then the offer amounts to giving to CF a piece of a territory well removed from his land in Holstein. Why would it make sense for CF? Or are you talking about Oldenburg as a city in the Eastern part of Holstein?
 
You keep confusing me with the excessive geography and terminology so, please bear with me:
1. Charles Frederick is a Duke of Holstein, which is imperial fief and a Duke of Schlezwig, which is Danish fief. Is “Gottorp” a combination of these two or something else?

Gottorp is just a informal name for the domain ruled by Charles Frederick. Frederik IV (of Denmark) and Charles Frederick are sovereign co-dukes of Schleswig and Holstein, while the Sonderburg dukes (Augustenburg, Glücksburg etc) are only titular dukes of Schleswig and Holstein. Of course this is made more complex because Frederik claimed that Schleswig was a Danish vassal, while Charles Frederick claimed it was independent country (this is a simplification)

2. During the GNW “Danish troops ravaged the Gottorp ducal share in the duchies during that war and conquered its northern portions in 1713, including the ancestral ducal seat Gottorp castle near Schleswig city in the homonymous duchy”. Was this his part of Schlezwig or what?

Yes, everything north of the Eider River are Schleswig.

3. In 1721 FIV “officially withdrew this fief”. As I understand, simply annexed the Schlezwig part.

Yes

4. Do I understand correctly that by “Oldenburg county” you mean the future Duchy of Oldenburg which is in Germany and had been owned by FIV? If yes, then the offer amounts to giving to CF a piece of a territory well removed from his land in Holstein. Why would it make sense for CF? Or are you talking about Oldenburg as a city in the Eastern part of Holstein?

County of Oldenburg; It only became a duchy in 1773 it was a County (as a principality ruled by a count, not a administrative unit) before, but yes it‘s that territory. The Gottorps had shown interest in the idea earlier and there was a deal on the table before King Frederik III suckered them and made a deal with the other heirs and annexed Oldenburg and left the Gottorps with nothing. As for why because it would have given them a territory where they were sole princes. Of course they get the same benefit here by annexing the jointly ruled area and become sole sovereign dukes of Schleswig-Holstein, and those jointly ruled area are vastly richer than the County of Oldenburg.

Of course the more I think the idea through the more I like it, it will still be a legal nightmare. But it will give the Gottorps much of what they want, while the deal also have some benefit for the Danish king.

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So here is the modified plan.

Gottorp give up the northern exclave.
The light yellow area in Holstein and in southern Schleswig are given to Gottorp. The Duchy of Schleswig is reduced to Gottorp areas in southern Schleswig, while the “Danish” possessions are annexed into Denmark. Schleswig is raised to a independent Grand Duchy (or Grand Principality if inspired by the Russians) free of Danish overlordship.

The Duchy of Holstein is partitioned with the orange “Danish“ part becoming the Duchy of Glückstadt (or Altona or Pinnenberg) while the Gottorps keep the title Duke of Holstein and their own and the jointly ruled territories.

The Danish kings are free of dealing with the Holsteinian nobility and the Gottorps are now Grand Dukes of Schleswig, rulers of a small sovereign state.

Edit I may attempt to draw my idea tomorrow morning.
 
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Gottorp is just a informal name for the domain ruled by Charles Frederick. Frederik IV (of Denmark) and Charles Frederick are sovereign co-dukes of Schleswig and Holstein, while the Sonderburg dukes (Augustenburg, Glücksburg etc) are only titular dukes of Schleswig and Holstein. Of course this is made more complex because Frederik claimed that Schleswig was a Danish vassal, while Charles Frederick claimed it was independent country (this is a simplification)



Yes, everything north of the Eider River are Schleswig.



Yes



County of Oldenburg; It only became a duchy in 1773 it was a County (as a principality ruled by a count, not a administrative unit) before, but yes it‘s that territory. The Gottorps had shown interest in the idea earlier and there was a deal on the table before King Frederik III suckered them and made a deal with the other heirs and annexed Oldenburg and left the Gottorps with nothing. As for why because it would have given them a territory where they were sole princes. Of course they get the same benefit here by annexing the jointly ruled area and become sole sovereign dukes of Schleswig-Holstein, and those jointly ruled area are vastly richer than the County of Oldenburg.

Of course the more I think the idea through the more I like it, it will still be a legal nightmare. But it will give the Gottorps much of what they want, while the deal also have some benefit for the Danish king.

View attachment 711768

So here is the modified plan.

Gottorp give up the northern exclave.
The light yellow area in Holstein and in southern Schleswig are given to Gottorp. The Duchy of Schleswig is reduced to Gottorp areas in southern Schleswig, while the “Danish” possessions are annexed into Denmark. Schleswig is raised to a independent Grand Duchy (or Grand Principality if inspired by the Russians) free of Danish overlordship.

The Duchy of Holstein is partitioned with the orange “Danish“ part becoming the Duchy of Glückstadt (or Altona or Pinnenberg) while the Gottorps keep the title Duke of Holstein and their own and the jointly ruled territories.

The Danish kings are free of dealing with the Holsteinian nobility and the Gottorps are now Grand Dukes of Schleswig, rulers of a small sovereign state.

Edit I may attempt to draw my idea tomorrow morning .
If I understood you correctly, the Gottorps end up as being independent dukes of the whole Southern Schlezwig “from sea to shining sea” and in Holstein they are getting all jointly ruled territories which amounts to the most of the Baltic coast while Kimg of Denmark becomes the Duke of Altona (easier to remember 😉). The Gottorps are getting potential headache with the noble owners but, unlike the OTL case of Mecklenburg there will be no imperial execution or at least it is not going to be implemented (by Hanover and Brandenburg) as long as he is supported by Sweden and Russia.

There probably can be some swaps between the duchies of H & A to make territories more contiguous and reduce administrative headache but this is a minor issue between the two dukes.

Sounds quite reasonable and I like it. If this is not a big problem, the map will be great and I’ll use it (with your permission) when it comes to peace deal.

Thanks
 
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I have made a rough sketch, I will likely improve it a little.

Fallschleswig.png


Light orange show Kingdom of Denmark
Dark Orange show the Danish possesions in Germany (County of Oldenburg and Duchy of Altona)
Purple is the Grand Duchy of Schleswig
Light purple is the Duchy of Holstein
Light yellow is the Duchy of Plön (Oldenburg sideline)
Green is the County of Rantzau (sovereign county under a Holsteinian knightly house)

The island of Fehmarn have been traded for the "Danish" enclaves in Schleswig and on the Holsteinian coast.
 
So from what i understood Gottorps get Dark/Light purple with influence over Rantzau (knightly order), while Danes get dark Orange area's. And yellow is independent, or something?
 
I have made a rough sketch, I will likely improve it a little.

View attachment 711876

Light orange show Kingdom of Denmark
Dark Orange show the Danish possesions in Germany (County of Oldenburg and Duchy of Altona)
Purple is the Grand Duchy of Schleswig
Light purple is the Duchy of Holstein
Light yellow is the Duchy of Plön (Oldenburg sideline)
Green is the County of Rantzau (sovereign county under a Holsteinian knightly house)

The island of Fehmarn have been traded for the "Danish" enclaves in Schleswig and on the Holsteinian coast.
Looks much better than LTL’s “fruit salad”: at least looking at that map does not make me dizzy and it starts making practical sense. Thanks for the idea and sketch. Now, can Holstein an Altona swap some territories to make administration easier? For example, that enclave just to the South from Schlezwig to either coastal area north of Altona or just to the piece between it and Rantzaw? This, if needed, can be done as a separate deal between the two duchies and both will have more consolidated territories. But anyway, it look good so thank you.
 
So from what i understood Gottorps get Dark/Light purple with influence over Rantzau (knightly order), while Danes get dark Orange area's. And yellow is independent, or something?

Knight in the context of Germany simply mean a nobleman who isn't a prince. Which mean Rantzau is an independent noble fief answering directly to the emperor instead of the local prince. As for the yellow area it's an independent duchy (Plön) whose duke is related to both the Danish king and the duke of Gottorp.

Looks much better than LTL’s “fruit salad”: at least looking at that map does not make me dizzy and it starts making practical sense. Thanks for the idea and sketch. Now, can Holstein an Altona swap some territories to make administration easier? For example, that enclave just to the South from Schlezwig to either coastal area north of Altona or just to the piece between it and Rantzaw? This, if needed, can be done as a separate deal between the two duchies and both will have more consolidated territories. But anyway, it look good so thank you.

The reason I don't make greater consolidation is because not all the territories are equal the northwestern part of Holstein gives the Gottorp control over the Eider River, which is very economic important for the Gottorp and will become even more so. While the areas in southwestern Holstein are noble estates, which would make a potential trade negative for Altona, as they would trade ducal land for land under control of nobles[1]. Altona have the benefit that there are zero nobles, which mean the Danish king can run it as an absolute state. At the same time because Altona have become permanent disconnected from Denmark, it gives little benefit for the Danish king to consolidate the Altona territories. The Jutish Oxen trade will shift to Ribe as an export port, while the oxen export of Altona will continue to use Glückstadt and Altona as ports depending on which territory they're connected to. The Gottorp may in time buy up some of Holsteinian noble enclaves in Altona and trade them, but it will be something which happens over decades, not something short term.

[1] The Holsteinian nobles have now become the Gottorp's problem, through many will still seek service in the Danish army and central administration and buy up land in Denmark (which is not a problem as they don't get political power from owning land). As such the Danish king will keep influence in Holstein by using the nobility as 5th column.
 
Second “ally”
44. Second “ally”
“Russia has two allies: its army and its navy”
Nicholas I


After the end of the Ottoman War of 1707-1709 Russian ship-building program looked as following:
A. Admiralty of the Black and Azov Seas:
1. Wharf of Voronezh - slowly dying out producing the small ships (up to the light frigates), capable of getting out even when the water levels of the Voronezh and Don rivers was low, for the Azov and Black Seas out of the previously collected materials [1]
2. Wharf of Taganrog - founded in 1701. Gradually loses its position of the main supplier of the warships to the new wharfs on the Black Sea. However, still an important producer of the small and mid-sized warships and merchant ships.
2. Wharf and Admiralty of Cherson, fast enough transferred to Nikolaev. Producing all types of the ships with the stress upon the ships of the line.
3. Wharf of Ochakov - small wharf, mostly for the merchant ships.
4. Wharf of Sevastopol - exclusively for the warships

B. Admiralty of the Baltic and White Seas:
1. Old Olonets wharf on the Ladoga Lake - small craft capable of sailing down the Neva to the sea (galleys, cannon boats, etc.).
2. Solombalskaya wharf near Archangelsk. Founded in 1693. Started with building the big commercial fluyt ships
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but then added construction of the warships, mostly for the Baltic fleet (6 ships of the line by 1710). Small wharfs in the region kept building the traditional koch-style ships for the fishing and merchant activities in the icy seas.
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3. St-Petersburg wharf and Admiralty. Predominantly the warships. Small wharfs near the city building some merchant ships.

In the case of the St-Petersburg wharf, just as was the case with Voronezh but on a larger scale, the huge number of the “forgotten” and then …er… “rediscovered” oak timber on the shores of Ladoga Lake provided a multi-year wood supply for the naval construction. The draconian measures (all the way to a death penalty) had been taken to prevent this type of things from happening again.

Experience of the Ottoman war provided some useful lessons which had to be adopted for a possible engagement against more serious enemy.

1. The Russian ships had been slower than those of the Ottomans and one of the main reasons was that the Ottoman ships had tzeir bottoms covered with a copper.
2. Artillery on the Russian ships of the line was too light for causing a serious damage and on the frigates too light to cause any damage except on a point blank distance.
3. Blind sticking to the linear tactics did mot pay off and creation of the “reserve squadron” even out of the weak frigates gave significant tactical advantage.

To all this some regional news had been added: starting from 1701 the Danish navy under the leadership of Ulrik Christian Gyldenløve got a serious upgrade of its firepower. Keeping in mind that the Danish fleet is going to operate on the relatively short distances of few hundreds miles, he “overloaded” ships with the guns and replacing the 30-pounders of a lower deck with 36-pounders, 18 pounders with 24 pounders and building a considerable number of the 50 guns ships for operations at the Sound and near the enemy’s coast [2].
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Taking into the account that the first few ships of the line built for the Baltic fleet on the Ladoga wharf not only had low sea-going qualities bit also had 18-pounder guns as their greater caliber, situation was plain intolerable and, as soon as St.Petersburg wharf became operational and Solombalskaya wharf got new “specifications” the ship building policy changed dramatically.

Construction of the first ship of the line with 100 guns started in 1705 and by 1710 the Baltic fleet had 4 of those with 6 having 96 guns and 6 more of 86 guns (arriving from Archangelsk). There were also 16 ships of the 3rd rank with 70-60 guns and smaller ships. The biggest calibers on all ships of the line was 36 pounds but on the upper desk they had the short-barrel 40 pounders guns, “unicorns” modified for the naval service. While having a considerable caliber, these guns had been weighting less than conventional naval 18-pounders and could fire a wide variety of the projectiles from a solid shot and grapeshot to the bombs and brandskugels [3]. With a purpose not to reveal “unnecessary” information to the Danes, Russian ships of the line sailing from Archangelsk had only the light 20-, 18-, 12-pounders and had been reequipped with the heavier guns upon arrival to St. Petersburg.

One of the biggest Russian assets in the area of strategic disinformation was the Danish ambassador, vice-admiral Just Juel. He landed in Riga (not St. Petersburg) and from here had been traveling by land. When at St. Petersburg, he asked once to show him the Russian fleet and after getting a refusal came to a logical conclusion that the Russians are simply hiding how bad their fleet is. On his route and while in Moscow he managed to spoil relations with each and every official by the countless complaints regarding them not following the diplomatic protocol properly and then showing disdain to pretty much everything from pedigree of the Russian aristocrats and all the way to the food [4]. All his observations he was putting in writing and the letters, which had been intercepted and studied, did not create him any additional friends. Why would they if he described the top Russian personages as the peasants without a sense of dignity (who else would be playing cards and dining with the subordinates?) and Russian nobility in general as lacking the willingness to serve in the military because they don’t have a proper sense of a honor. But the jesters and dwarfs of Peter’s court got his full attention. The projected image was that the Russians are rather pathetic barbarians who are still somewhere on a “back bench” in studying how to be properly civilized and can be safely ignored in the strategic planning. AFAIK, he was not even being paid by the Russians. 😂








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[1] As with the case of New Ladoga wharfs, a lot of collected but “forgotten” wood had been found during the revision. Some of this material had been used in Voronezh and some transferred to Taganrog.
[2] This is from https://george-rooke.livejournal.com/348772.html? I could not find any other sources so this is going to be an alt reality. 😉 As usually, wiki adds to the confusion because Dannebroge in an article on a Battle of Køge Bay shown as having 92 guns but on a link to this ship as 76 guns (with 24 pounders as a biggest caliber).
[3] Incendiary projectile, not very efficient and considered somewhat uncivilized but still being used. After the battle of Hogland (1788) the Swedes presumably sent a delegation to the Russian commander, admiral Greig, protesting against the Russian usage of the brandskugels to which Greig pointed to the burns left by the brandskugels fired by the Swedes. 😂
[4] One would assume that sturgeon is an expensive fish but, because it was not available in Denmark, he found its smell (?) and taste repulsive, and so on.
 
Minor, and as ever, possibly mistaken comment. I think copper sheathing ships became common much later. The British only coppered their fleet during the American Revolutionary War and the French and Spanish followed soon after that. I think the Turks followed the French and had some copper bottomed ships by 1787.
 
Minor, and as ever, possibly mistaken comment. I think copper sheathing ships became common much later. The British only coppered their fleet during the American Revolutionary War and the French and Spanish followed soon after that. I think the Turks followed the French and had some copper bottomed ships by 1787.
Yes, but who really cares? The “unicorns” had not been invented in the early 1700s either and most of other things mentioned happened much later or not at all. The Russians in the late 1700s had been using some special grease (presumably introduced by Admiral Greig) instead of copper. BTW, dear Watson, the Turks did not “follow” the French: their ships had been built by the French.😜
 
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Copper sheeting may be good in the Black Sea, but in the Baltic Sea, White Sea and North Sea, it is not necessary. The shipworm does not like cold or brackish waters, so it was never a threat to a navy primarily sailing in these waters.
 
Copper sheeting may be good in the Black Sea, but in the Baltic Sea, White Sea and North Sea, it is not necessary. The shipworm does not like cold or brackish waters, so it was never a threat to a navy primarily sailing in these waters.


Copper sheathing is the practice of protecting the under-water hull of a ship or boat from the corrosive effects of salt water and biofouling through the use of copper plates affixed to the outside of the hull.”
“Biofouling” includes not just shipworm but also barnacles and seaweed. And as far as the barnacles are involved, there are plenty of them on the Atlantic coast (all the way to a restaurant of that name 😂) and waters near my town of Swampscott are not exactly in the “tropical” zone or even noticeably warmer than those near Riga.
 
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IIRC, it was a problem for the Baltic fleet because its main base, Kronstadt, was too close to the major river. But admiral Greig used some mixture (lost reference and so far can’t find it) to put on ships bottoms instead of a copper. Was it against a sea worm or to prevent growing all that stuff on the bottoms (which would definitely slow ship down), I can’t tell. Anyway, is it so important?
Not that important, I just but in when I feel I have information that can be relevant. Both the Russian and Swedish fleets are bound to lay up for winter due to ice conditions, and usually, AFAIK, used that time to drydock ships, scrape their bottoms and tar and pitch them. Copper sheeting protects against the shipworm, but another great advantage is that it protects against a lot of sea life (usually of trhe flora kind) that would attach themselves and grow on the hull, slowing the ship down. Copper sheeting was very expensive, if yearly scraping can do the same job, why not use it? :)
 
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