Miscellaneous <1900 (Alternate) History Thread

Katherine’s wedding to Henry VIII is NOT guaranteed to happen. If he is a little smarter, his father live longer or Fernando was a little less snake, Henry would NOT marry Katherine. He was betrothed to Eleanor of Austria at his father’s death and will marry her if Henry VII lived another couple of years…
Yes. Give Henry VII two, or three more years, and Henry VIII's reproductive history might be utterly different...
 
I was thinking recently about the possibility of the Sumerian language surviving into modern times. Obviously a highly unlikely scenario (and one that depends quite a bit on when exactly you think it died out) in a lot of ways. Though I tend to think that people are often too fatalistic about history, thinking "it happened so it must have bean almost inevitable".

Obviously whatever did actually happen in any given example is likely to be whatever was most likely to happen (although unlikely things do happen occasionally as well) or at least one of the more probable things that could have happened so there is some merit to that kind of thinking but nonetheless I think that there are a few reasonably realistic ways that Sumerian could have survived into modern times.

Not as the majority language of the region probably given the sheer amount of language replacement that happened over the historical time-span. Something like Sumerian > Akkadian > Amorite ( > Babylonian Akkadian) > Kassite ( > Assyrian Akkadian) > Chaldean > Aramaean > (Some back and forth including Greek and Persian sort of) > Arabic. So given that history it seems unlikely that Sumerian would manage to remain dominant over that entire time-span. But that said if it could just manage to survive a bit longer perhaps it could then go on to survive as a minority language somewhere in the region.

I see two fairly straight-forward ways that this could have happened. The first is rather obvious. Assume that Sargon the Great never existed, or failed in his attempt to conquer Mesopotamia. Then the first securely attested empire could have been a Sumerian one. Honestly from the stories about Sargon I get the impression that his success was quite the stroke of luck and strategic genius and actually very unlikely.
This would then have increased the prestige of Sumerian and possibly even spread it further outside of the classical Sumerian heartland.
The most probable thing to happen after that is presumably that the Sumerian Empire falls to the Gutians like the Akkadian one eventually did, but of course the sky is the limit in theory.

The second way that it could have perhaps survived is if the Ur-III kings managed to do something about the salt buildup in the soil. Which as I understand it is a problem that was solved (or at least partially solved) by Mesopotamians over the next five centuries or so. And the solutions don't seem that counter intuitive and they had the records to prove what was happening so this doesn't seem too unlikely if they had choosen to focus on this problem (though political realities might have made this difficult to do in practice and it may require some luck or more time than they really had). Couple that with a longer reign for Shulgis succesor, or perhaps a more competent one, and I think that the UR-III dynasty could have survived over the Issin-Larsa period and perhaps even replace the Old Babylonian Empire.

Thoughts?
 
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Perhaps...except then what does one do with Katherine, already in England, but with no husband to wed?
I don't know. The dowry issue was complicated by the fact that Henry VII and King Ferdinand were both masterclass penny pinching arses complicates the matter. Someone's gonna have to squat, or get off the pot...
 
I don't know. The dowry issue was complicated by the fact that Henry VII and King Ferdinand were both masterclass penny pinching arses complicates the matter. Someone's gonna have to squat, or get off the pot...
I suppose she marries Henry right off the bat? Sure, she'd need to wait for consummation, but she waited 7 years IOTL. She can do that again
 
out of curiosity, why didn't the u.s use a version of the pound instead of the dollar?
Because due to a large amount of trade with the Caribbean, the main circulating coin in the Thirteen Colonies was the Spanish coin commonly called in English the Spanish dollar (or "pieces of eight"). It was a perfectly legal coin since it was made of silver and reputable, and the original US dollar coins were manufactured as American imitations.
 
Perhaps...except then what does one do with Katherine, already in England, but with no husband to wed?
I don't know. The dowry issue was complicated by the fact that Henry VII and King Ferdinand were both masterclass penny pinching arses complicates the matter. Someone's gonna have to squat, or get off the pot...
Henry VII had done his part without troubles, the faults were all on Ferdinand (plus Isabella and Catalina herself)
I suppose she marries Henry right off the bat? Sure, she'd need to wait for consummation, but she waited 7 years IOTL. She can do that again
Henry was way too young for being marriageable. Far likelier who here she will return in Spain after her arrival or Philip and Joanna will take her back with them
 
Henry VII had done his part without troubles, the faults were all on Ferdinand (plus Isabella and Catalina herself)

Henry was way too young for being marriageable. Far likelier who here she will return in Spain after her arrival or Philip and Joanna will take her back with them
I wonder who she WILL marry, ITTL. Arthur is dead, Henry is too young. Does she wed into France, perhaps, if Charles Orlando didn't die as an infant?
 
I wonder who she WILL marry, ITTL. Arthur is dead, Henry is too young. Does she wed into France, perhaps, if Charles Orlando didn't die as an infant?
She could marry Louis XII when Anne of Brittany dies or if she dies sooner. The Duke of Savoy would also be a good option.
 
I mean true, but Catherine would be by far the most prestigious and could help bring an end to the Italian Wars and secure his position in Northern Italy.
True. That'd be interesting...

Louis XII b. 1462 m. 1501 Katherine of Aragon b. 1485

1. Louis XIII of France b. 1502 m. Katherine Tudor b. 1503
2. Isabella b. 1502 m. Charles V b. 1500
3. Ferdinand b. 1504 m. Isabella of Portugal b. 1503
 
One murder...doesn't really bring down a whole dynasty...unless neither of them had children?
In that very precise case, yes, that would bring down the whole dynasty.
Murad IV had only daughters. His brother Ibrahim I was his successor and began to produce children only after Murad's death. Before Murad's death, he and Ibrahim were the only two male Ottomans. Had Murad killed Ibrahim and still died without any son, that would've been the end of the dynasty.
Some rumors said Murad actually had ordered to kill Ibrahim but had not been obeyed.
 
Wheeluse in pre-Columbian America.....

I know that some cultures had known the wheel but only for toys.

Of course, most useful vehicles might be useless without the large draft animals of the old World but surely something similar to the Chinese wheelbarrow would be useful.
 
I was thinking recently about the possibility of the Sumerian language surviving into modern times. Obviously a highly unlikely scenario (and one that depends quite a bit on when exactly you think it died out) in a lot of ways. Though I tend to think that people are often too fatalistic about history, thinking "it happened so it must have bean almost inevitable".

Obviously whatever did actually happen in any given example is likely to be whatever was most likely to happen (although unlikely things do happen occasionally as well) or at least one of the more probable things that could have happened so there is some merit to that kind of thinking but nonetheless I think that there are a few reasonably realistic ways that Sumerian could have survived into modern times.

Not as the majority language of the region probably given the sheer amount of language replacement that happened over the historical time-span. Something like Sumerian > Akkadian > Amorite ( > Babylonian Akkadian) > Kassite ( > Assyrian Akkadian) > Chaldean > Aramaean > (Some back and forth including Greek and Persian sort of) > Arabic. So given that history it seems unlikely that Sumerian would manage to remain dominant over that entire time-span. But that said if it could just manage to survive a bit longer perhaps it could then go on to survive as a minority language somewhere in the region.

I see two fairly straight-forward ways that this could have happened. The first is rather obvious. Assume that Sargon the Great never existed, or failed in his attempt to conquer Mesopotamia. Then the first securely attested empire could have been a Sumerian one. Honestly from the stories about Sargon I get the impression that his success was quite the stroke of luck and strategic genius and actually very unlikely.
This would then have increased the prestige of Sumerian and possibly even spread it further outside of the classical Sumerian heartland.
The most probable thing to happen after that is presumably that the Sumerian Empire falls to the Gutians like the Akkadian one eventually did, but of course the sky is the limit in theory.

The second way that it could have perhaps survived is if the Ur-III kings managed to do something about the salt buildup in the soil. Which as I understand it is a problem that was solved (or at least partially solved) by Mesopotamians over the next five centuries or so. And the solutions don't seem that counter intuitive and they had the records to prove what was happening so this doesn't seem too unlikely if they had choosen to focus on this problem (though political realities might have made this difficult to do in practice and it may require some luck or more time than they really had). Couple that with a longer reign for Shulgis succesor, or perhaps a more competent one, and I think that the UR-III dynasty could have survived over the Issin-Larsa period and perhaps even replace the Old Babylonian Empire.

Thoughts?
Or maybe a Sumerian-speaker founds a new religion that really takes off, and it survives as a liturgical language? Admittedly they'd probably have to go into exile right at the start, so as not to be killed by the Sumerian establishment,but presumably that wouldn't have been 100% impossible; Maybe the prophet was a merchant who had their revelation while travelling somewhere abroad on business and simply decided not to go back?
H'mm, does anybody know when did Mecca and/or Yathrib [Medina] were originally founded?
 
Or maybe a Sumerian-speaker founds a new religion that really takes off, and it survives as a liturgical language? Admittedly they'd probably have to go into exile right at the start, so as not to be killed by the Sumerian establishment,but presumably that wouldn't have been 100% impossible; Maybe the prophet was a merchant who had their revelation while travelling somewhere abroad on business and simply decided not to go back?
H'mm, does anybody know when did Mecca and/or Yathrib [Medina] were originally founded?
To be fair Sumerian already was used as a liturgical language in the Mesopotamian pagan religion and survived as a liturgical language as late as around 100 ad. I guess it's not too difficult to imagine some sort of Revival using those ancient Sumerian texts as a basis for a new religion or something but I was more thinking about it surviving as a spoken language than just a written/liturgical one.
 
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