Autumn in America: A TL-191 Continuation

Here we go:
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Book 1: 1880s.

This one needs the least work. Lincoln gets sick just long enough for Seward to piss off the Brits enough to spark a Trent war. The US is winning big in the West, but continued struggles in the East and British intervention lead to a forced peace.

By 1888, the Confederacy is an unstable oligarchic slavocracy, the US is running on rage, and there's a lot of tensions in the US between immigrants (except Germans and Irish, who are seen as natural allies due to German-American friendship and Anglo-American animosity) and "native-born" white Americans. The Republican and Democratic parties have collapsed, leaving the Freedom Party (radical, militaristic, typically the underdog in elections, dominated by bitter veterans who want payback) and the Union Party (status quo, usually wins, favors keeping the economy functional after half of Washington and part of Maine got nabbed and the South seceded). The US is closely tied to Imperial Germany, and hates the British and South with a passion.

When the South invades Cuba (an earlier war with Republican Mexico having been won thanks to leftover British arms and funding while the US was licking its wounds and the French took the rest of Mexico as a puppet regime), the US intervenes on Spain's side as the President is worried about strong Freedomite polling. The British attempt to intervene on the CSA's side, but the Germans, who under Chancellor Bismarck want to avoid a world-war clusterfuck as Bismarck thinks the country isn't ready yet, push for a negotiated settlement. The US gets northern Maine and Washington back as they kicked butt in the northern theater, but the South survives intact and gains Cuba despite the US symbolically retaking and regaining DC. Bismarck is pushed out by Wilhelm II, who thinks that he was too timid and missed a huge chance, and moves to further close ties with America.

Viewpoint characters:
--President Matthew Quay: Corrupt and incompetent President of the United States, who's only good on the campaign trail and at packing his office with yesmen. Intervenes in the Spanish-Confederate War in an attempt to bolster his flagging poll numbers.
--Ulysses S. Grant: Famed Union general who re-takes DC, earning him great acclaim.
--Ruth O'Brien: Irish immigrant, trade union supporter, and nurse in the Union army auxiliary. Sees the carnage of the siege of DC.
--Frederick Douglass Johnson: Black soldier under Grant's command. Due to heavy casualties, Grant orders the 8th Illinois Colored Infantry (Johnson's unit) folded in to the 9th Illinois regular infantry unit; Johnson eventually is promoted to Lieutenant for heroic actions and meets Ruth while convalescing.
--Wade Hampton III: Aging, fanatically racist Confederate officer, sent by Confederate dictator Robert E. Lee to defeat Grant. Fails after sustaining heavy casualties.

Books 2-4: WW1.

25 years after the Cuban War, the Confederacy is rife with turmoil. The economy's in the toilet, Cuba's had a boiling insurgency for decades, and the US-Germany axis added Spain (now reforming under a liberal republican administration) to their alliance. Mexico is a hair's breadth from explosion.

Meanwhile, the US is facing new tensions as the Freedom Party merges with the Socialist Party, presenting a towering threat to the corrupt, bloated Union Party. Although the economy boomed after the US worked with Nicaragua to throw out CSA-aligned putschists and successfully built a canal through the country (shared ownership gave the US and Nicaragua both huge dividends), worker rights are still crap and the Socialist Party is gaining huge ground. When Socialist candidate Theodore Roosevelt wins the 1912 election with running mate Eugene Debs, the world is primed for an explosion.

In 1914, Emperor Maximilian III of Mexico is assassinated by a Mexican Republican activist aided by US intelligence. Confederate President (formerly dictator--he tried to put some democracy in place for stability's sake after the CSA came within one US congressional vote of annihilation circa 1900) Woodrow Wilson moves to oppose the Republican junta under Francisco Madero and Emiliano Zapata that quickly seizes power, triggering a US invasion to support Madero and Zapata.

This precipitates WW1. The CSA holds up alright due to Franco-British support at first, but it's quickly on the defensive. The US marches quickly down the Mississippi, cutting off the Confederate West, but gets bogged down in trench warfare as river crossings make force concentration and taking advantage of breakouts harder. In Europe, Germany is fighting a "2.5"-front war; Austria remained French-aligned but it's getting torn apart by a Hungarian rebellion and Italian invasion so it's kind of a mess.

After a year of war, socialist rebels and black socialist guerillas supported by the US rise up in the CSA. The implosion of the CSA and collapse of the Northern front causes the British to sue for peace, and WW1 ends with Russia in chaos, France a bitter loser, Austria-Hungary ceasing to exist (the Germans take Austria and Czechia, the Hungarians try to hang on to the rest), and Britain's empire starting to teeter.

Viewpoint characters:
--Eugene Debs: Vice-President of the United States. Although he despises the Confederacy and its debt-bondage (they replaced de jure slavery with debt bondage under British pressure because London was worried about PR), he's also a pacifist who is torn apart emotionally by the war.
--Maria Valgarma Ortiz: Mexican guerilla under rebel leader turned General José Doroteo Arango Arámbula in Confederate Chihuahua. Eventually joins Ulysses Grant Johnson's prototype special-forces unit after meeting him and helping him catch some Confederate soldiers-turned-bandits in what used to be Confederate northern Mexico.
--Ulysses Grant Johnson: Son of Frederick Douglass Johnson and Ruth O'Brien. Mixed-race Captain in the Union Army. Begins to develop special forces while working to assist the black rebels in the CSA.
--Jerome/"Spartacus": Black ex-slave runaway in the CSA, Proletarian Leader and Governor of the Big Cypress Workers' American State of the Union. Leads a coalition of rebels in the name of Marx and Uncle Sam.
--Wade Hampton IV: Incompetent and bigoted Confederate cavalry Captain, bitter at his family's loss of status following Wilson's rise to power.
--Jake Featherston: Disgruntled grunt under Wade Hampton IV. Hates both blacks and rich whites for the precarious state of poor whites in the Confederate hierarchy.

Books 5-6:

America settles in to victory and tries to stamp out white Confederate resistance. France undergoes a record 37 changes of government in 15 years before being taken over by a fascist regime under Charles Maurras. The UK is an unstable, bitterly revanchist mess, Hungary is dealing with rebel uprisings left and right, Russia is a hot mess, and there are brushfire conflicts across the world. Finally, bitter about its lackluster performance in the first World War and the relative lack of territorial gains they got, the Italians get themselves a new strongman leader: Italo Balbo, who sets himself up his own tinpot dictatorship and demands irredenta left and right.

All of this is predominantly in the background as Jake Featherston gets really into white Confederate lost-causism and starts stockpiling guns and ammo, while Ulysses Grant Johnson tries to stamp out resistance.

Books 7-9:

In 1936, the UK government collapses due to the new King, Edward VIII, having picked up socialism while in American captivity in WW1, and attempting to abolish the monarchy. Oswald Mosley takes advantage of the mess and gets enough military leaders on his side to coup. The British dictatorship installs a more suitable King, and pursues close ties with Maurras's Fatherland of France.

In 1939, Maurras manufactures a justification for war with Spain, which is enmeshed in political turmoil and cannot properly respond. Although Spain was a German ally for the last 2 rounds, economic collapse after WW1 led to the conservative Carlist regime that took over and then collapsed 2 years later to break ties and pursue nationalistic autarky; the subsequent governments have remained neutral since they got nothing but some useless desert out of WW1 and the public doesn't want to get dragged into round 2. Due to the death of Wilhelm II and a major election where all parties are being as noninterventionist as possible because of all the WW1 dead that nobody's forgotten, Germany is unable to properly respond, and Britain and France quickly occupy Spain. Maurras decides that to complete the restoration of the Fatherland of France, he needs to eradicate the Jews and "Gypsies" from Europe once and for all.

The next year, Maurras invades Germany as the Russian Soviet Republic under Alexandra Kollontai focuses on un-fucking Russia, but revolts and uprisings pop up across German-dominated eastern Europe, in the American South, and basically everywhere in the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans collapse in on themselves, and Maurras makes decent initial progress against Germany after taking Belgium and the Netherlands. Meanwhile, Japan, which has been shooting up China (which pissed off pro-China America), decides to invade the ex-British island bits America nabbed in the war, and Aleyska which the Soviets sold to America in exchange for much-needed funds (the Germans weren't happy but the Americans are already half-Red anyway, and we need them to secure the peace, and really we have Ukraine and that's the important bit...).

The Central Powers eventually win after an Irish Republican uprising does well enough to let America land massive forces and jump from there to Britain. The US gets the Bomb, demonstrates it, films the demonstration, and tells the world "We will do this to you if you keep fucking with us".

The Japanese are sane enough to surrender. Mosley and Maurras tell the US to pound sand even as the US's other European invasion force approaches the Pyrenees. The US nukes a French military camp in Normandy to show they mean business. France and Britain surrender. The US and Germany try to un-fuck the mess and start eyeing the resumption of the influence game.

Characters:
--Ulysses Grant Johnson: General, US Army Special Operations Command head, close friend of Marine Corps General Smedley Butler (who he worked with a few times in WW1). Oversees the war in Ireland and then in Spain. Quietly a supporter of President Norman Thomas.
--Valentina Ramona Ortiz Johnson: You can see where I'm going here. Journalist reporting on the Featherston uprising; after its suppression, she moves to the Chinese front where she gets very lost and has Adventures.
--Sun Shumeng: Chinese guerilla fighting the Japanese invasion, meets up with Valentina while the latter is running from Japanese soldiers.
--Jake Featherston: Anti-government terrorist and rebel in the southern US. White supremacist.
--Homma Masaharu: Japanese general in charge of the invasion of China, is extremely successful. Is reassigned after subordinates complain that he is insufficiently sadistic. Proceeds to take the barely-controlled German Indochina with ease, only to be rearsed again because the Americans are closing in on the Home Islands and he's needed to plan the defense. Coups and surrenders to the US after the US threatens to nuke Tokyo.
--Charles Maurras: Psychopathic fascist dictator of France. Runs a genocidal regime that seeks to purify France of such "verminous" people as Romani, Jews, Bretons, and Protestants. Gets wrecked despite British support and the German military leadership having no clue WTF they're doing for the first six months of the war, which costs Germany the Rhineland.
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Obviously this is very loose and could do with some development, but I think it gets the point a cross.
 

Faeelin

Banned
I prefer an approach which tries to fix as much of the setting as possible, both moving on from the end of the SGW and filling in the numerous gaps that Turtledove left. The way I see it, if we're not content with TL-191 as it is, it should be improved.

I think this is where you, me, and Hexcron disagree. It's not our place to "fix" a story. Hex doesn't like the ending Turtledove left, which to me is perfectly plausible. That's why this is just a fanfic he wants to tell. But it's fair to explain why the outcome is plausible in the universe it's set, and nobody has articulated why letting the Confederates go to hell their own way will work differently than last time.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned





The only signs of Southern heritage we see in the books are some sort of soda, racism, and then a black holocaust. Even their Superman is a knock off, and their decadent elites import French artists.


Americans wanting to avoid a screaming Nazi nuking their cities, and not trusting the Confederates to honour their words after last time, is not, in fact, absurdity. But obviously some folks really miss the CSA.







Im no fan of the Confederate States but I know there is more to their "culture" than that.And even if there wasnt after 80 years of independence and 4 wars against the USA the vast majority of Confederates and Americans would see it that way which is part of the reason reabsorbing the CSA does not work.Its not a question so much of wanting the CSA back as it is where do you want it-as part of the USA along with all the negative and malign influences that entails or separate and not injecting those bad influences back into the US body politic and culture .OTL we saw and still see the effects on the United States of taking back a group that had practiced slavery and in TL-191 a group that attempted genocide is taken back with an even more no harm no foul attitude. Letting the CSA remain apart from the USA but cowed and controlled to a certain extent is the far better option for the USA in just about every way.
 
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I think this is where you, me, and Hexcron disagree. It's not our place to "fix" a story. Hex doesn't like the ending Turtledove left, which to me is perfectly plausible. That's why this is just a fanfic he wants to tell.
That's fair enough.
But it's fair to explain why the outcome is plausible in the universe it's set, and nobody has articulated why letting the Confederates go to hell their own way will work differently than last time.
I've explained it multiple times, but I'll do you a solid and explain it one last time. The reason the Confederacy likely won't start a third Great War with the USA is because they won't have the political or economic ability to do so. The situation after the First Great War and the Second Great War are not the same, and it's disingenuous to imply that they are similar. The First Great War bloodied the Confederacy, the Second Great War destroyed its industry and military utterly. The Confederates, like everyone else, are people, and will learn harsh lessons and not keep suicidally attacking like cartoon villains.

The new Confederacy would be established as an American satellite state, and it doesn't benefit them to bite the hand that feeds them. The United States would maintain a large enough military advantage because, as you point out, the Confederacy won't be entirely trusted, and the Americans would make it clear in no uncertain terms that future remilitarization would lead to hostility. You seem to believe that neither the Confederates nor Americans would learn from the SGW, and that any situation which has an independent Confederacy after the SGW would lead to a repeat. Why? Look at it from the point of view of Turtledove's parallelism. Germany wasn't absorbed into the US or USSR after WWII, and it didn't form a Fourth Reich immediately after independence or after reunification in 1989.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
I think this is where you, me, and Hexcron disagree. It's not our place to "fix" a story. Hex doesn't like the ending Turtledove left, which to me is perfectly plausible. That's why this is just a fanfic he wants to tell. But it's fair to explain why the outcome is plausible in the universe it's set, and nobody has articulated why letting the Confederates go to hell their own way will work differently than last time.
There are plenty of reasons things wont be the same but the main reason is that the US has ways to stop it from happening again and isnt afraid or reluctant to use them and unless they are completely insane the Confederates likely dont try it again.But also as I said above its better for the United Sates and the CSA to remain apart.The CSA society will change on its own if it ever changes.Putting it back with the USA would likely just change the USA and not in a good way and that is reason enough to let the CSA go.
 
Why not just break the former Confederacy into multiple independent states that are closely tied to Philadelphia and are barred from possessing a standing military or uniting with each other?
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
Why not just break the former Confederacy into multiple independent states that are closely tied to Philadelphia and are barred from possessing a standing military or uniting with each other?
and the same could be done with Canada though I expect the US could actually successfully integrate Canada eventually. Most of the people and society there are much different than most people and the society the CSA. Also absorbing Canada would not change the USA as much-except maybe making us like potine :p
 
Why not just break the former Confederacy into multiple independent states that are closely tied to Philadelphia and are barred from possessing a standing military or uniting with each other?
I actually think this is a likely possibility. Any new Confederacy is unlikely to have all the territories of the former CSA. Texas is out, and the creation of a black state from former CSA territory makes sense.
 
I actually think this is a likely possibility. Any new Confederacy is unlikely to have all the territories of the former CSA. Texas is out, and the creation of a black state from former CSA territory makes sense.
For some reason, this brings to mind a potential Israel-Palestine situation emerging in the south. I doubt that's what the OP is going to do, but it's an interesting concept nonetheless.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
For some reason, this brings to mind a potential Israel-Palestine situation emerging in the south. I doubt that's what the OP is going to do, but it's an interesting concept nonetheless.
Which of course is probably the only scenario thats worse than trying to fully reintegrate the CSA as is. I could see surviving blacks being urged to go to Utah and elsewhere in the USA and Canada as well as perhaps Cuba and Haiti.But urging them to stay in the South or setting up a black republic somewhere in the South that still has a large white population would just be asking for trouble through that Israel/Palestine situation.If the USA is really interested in doing that successfully they would have to remove and relocate the vast majority if not all (as with the Mormons) of the native white population in the area of the black republic-which of course creates a form of Israel/Palestine but one slightly better than what we have OTL.Best to avoid the situation entirely. Some blacks would not want to leave the South but considering what just happened to them there Id imagine the vast majority would take the US up on it-probably a much larger percentage than went North OTL during the Great Migration and in WW2. Being black in the South would be harder post Destruction than at any time in history whatever the political situation was there. I also think its safe to say the white Confederate population was much more complicit with the Destruction both in direct knowledge and participation than Germans were with the Holocaust. Most of them dont see the Destruction as an unmitigated disaster and pure evil-so how do you live amongst that as a black person and why on Earth would you want to ? Blacks giving white Confederates the benefit of the doubt would very much be over just as it likely would be for most white Americans...
 
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Faeelin

Banned
Why not just break the former Confederacy into multiple independent states that are closely tied to Philadelphia and are barred from possessing a standing military or uniting with each other?
The American concern - why won't they just unite 20 years later and nuke Philadelphia again?


Which of course is probably the only scenario thats worse than trying to fully reintegrate the CSA as is. I could see surviving blacks being urged to go to Utah and elsewhere in the USA and Canada as well as perhaps Cuba and Haiti.But urging them to stay in the South or setting up a black republic somewhere in the South that still has a large white population would just be asking for trouble through that Israel/Palestine situation.

"I would simply say Featherston was right and urge Black Americans to leave the south!"

Jesus people.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
"I would simply say Featherston was right and urge Black Americans to leave the south!"

Jesus people.
The only thing that Featherston was right about is that because of people like him black people faced great danger in the South.In the aftermath of the Second Great War where they would be a constant reminder of all the Confederacy had lost what possible reason do they have to feel safe and trust the white Confederates who now outnumber them more than ever?
Speaking of Jesus he failed to help them during the Destruction perhaps they can now help themselves and go to a better situation ?
The American concern - why won't they just unite 20 years later and nuke Philadelphia again?
#1 What American president would allow the Confederacy to develop superbombs again or sunbombs ? # 2 What Confederate president would bomb Philadelphia at the cost of Richmond,Atlanta,Birmingham,New Orleans,Miami, Raleigh and just about everything in between ? I doubt even Jake Featherstons love child with Lulu Mattox could be that insane.Where does the idea that Americans would allow it and Confederates would do it come from ? Because it happened before the Second Great War is no reason to think it would happen again as if nothing had changed. When it comes to Americans its possible the Confederates have realized they cant beat them but that doesnt mean they want to join them.Since the Americans mostly feel the same way what is the point ?
 
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the whole "Japan buys all of SE Asia and manages to administer it up to 1950" thing and "no functioning internationally recognized Chinese govt" is ridiculous
 
It seems to me like this conversation has mainly diverged into two different topics; what a continuation of TL-191 thematically should be and whether the south could ever be reconciled to the northern state.

The second question is easiest to answer. The idea that the CSA is just a more racist version of the USA is, by the end of the series, absurd. It has a clearly distinct culture, (a completely independent film industry, artistic scene, and different musical culture, all of which predate the Freedom Party are evidence enough for that, and seems like far more of a culture than just knock-off soft drinks and Hyperman), and a history of 83 years of independence from the United States. If you're looking for a basis for the Confederate States that goes beyond racism, its independence and separation from the Union. But don't take my word for it. Let's look at what Harry himself has to say:

"I'm saying things have changed since the War of Secession...Back then, states were more important than countries...Kentucky even declared itself neutral after the war started, and for a long time the USA and the CSA both had to honor that...Can you imagine a state trying to be neutral during the Great War? Things were different. Countries counted most. You thought, I live in the United States, or, I'm a Confederate. You didn't think, I'm a New Yorker first, or, I'm from Georgia..."
  • American Empire: The Victorious Opposition, Chapter XIV
This is an opinion stated in a high school civics class, by a character unambiguously presented as correct. Turtledove's (and therefore the books’) position is clear; The Civil War in otl forged a unified national identity for the United States, and in TL-191 a separate unified national identity was forged for the Confederate States. The South is no less a separate nation with its own identity than Canada is today. Therefore the question must be asked; If the white confederates constitute a separate nation, with its own national identity, how could they ever be reconciled to being a part of a country that represents a different (northern) nation? This is such a simple and obvious critique of the Union's plan that its on the Wikipedia article for the series;

"Reviewer Lionel Ward notes[9] that although the series "ends in an apparent happy ending", "integrating the Confederate territories into the United States would be an impossible mission" -- "an open-ended military occupation of a very large sullen population, which would inevitably burst into rebellion sooner or later(...) A far more reasonable policy, never even considered, would have been to revive the Confederate Whig Party under US auspices and make a pragmatic agreement with a rehabilitated Confederacy". Ward concludes:

"The series ends with the US holding by the tail not one tiger but two [The Confederate territories and Canada, occupied since 1917], plus a big aggressive wildcat [The Mormons in Utah]. [...] In this history, the post-1945 United States has nothing like the dominant global position it had in the equivalent period of actual history. There are several rival powers with both the means and the motive to make trouble for the US and actively foment rebellion.""


Faeelin misses the point when I bring up the unrealism of IAtD, because I'm not saying it's a bad ending. I'm saying it's contrived to get to a point Turtledove wants the story to go to, and it's no more realistic than what I intend for the US. Yes, no country collapsed in the way I intend for the US to, but the Soviets didn't try to annex East Germany, and erase Germany as a nation within their territory, in spite of having the same reasons Faeelin lays out for the North to want to eliminate the South (Attempting to wage a war of extermination is really worse than betraying a treaty and using a lone nuclear bomb now that I think of it). The Soviets didn't do it for a simple reason; it's an absurd proposition on the face of it, just as realistically it would be for La Follette. The US would not be granting the Confederates a mercy by making them into a puppet state instead of annexing them outright, any more than the Soviets were granting the Germans a mercy by setting up the DDR. Any hypothetical concerns about a puppet Confederacy getting superbombs or demanding back Tennessee are about as irrelevant as Soviet concerns that East Germany might try to re-invade the USSR, or develop nuclear weapons, or any other ludicrous proposition.

There were in fact people in the west who thought the same way about Germany as Faeelin says the North would about the South. In response, they came up with the Morgenthau plan. Brutal as it was, even it did not wish to integrate Germany, a separate nation with an independent history and culture, into any other country. It simply sought to cripple Germany and prevent it from ever posing a threat again. There's no reason why Northerners would think differently than that. Allusions to the historical connections and previous union of the two countries are dispelled by the repeated disbelief that they're supposed to be the same country again at the end of IAtD. No one but the same sorts of fringe nutjobs who today say that Cantonia or Manchuria are real nations would be saying the deep south is rightful northern clay.

As for the first, Faeelin again misses the point when I bring up the fact that there are plenty of parallelisms to the Eastern Front. The fact that the pre-war political situation is more similar to that of the Western allies is irrelevant, because the parallelisms are not the point in and of themselves. They exist to serve Turtledove's overarching message; A North America divided in this way would be just as violent and unhappy as the rest of the world. One might say that was resolved at the end of IAtD with re-unification, but I've already made quite clear in this very message why I don't view it as sustainable; The Confederate States has a separate national identity, therefore it cannot be reconciled to being a part of the Northern state. If one wants to make a continuation TL with continuing that message in mind, what parallelisms pop up as potential points of interest? That's what I'm interested in. That's what this TL is about.

This conversation is getting quite tiring at this point, and extended forum posts aren't exactly my favoured medium of discussion, so I'm not likely to make any more statements about my position here. If anyone wants to talk more about it, I'd much prefer to do it in the fan-content or book-talk channels of the SV mod discord.
 
@Worffan101, dang that's an interesting scenario and too bad you can't really write it since it might seem like copying Turtledove's idea. I find this TL interesting so far despite the fact that independence of the Confederacy is a little unbelievable. At the very least, they would be broken up into multiple republics. The thing is regarding superbombs is that the knowledge to make them is out there and once the CSA makes them they can threaten US cities to prevent the US from doing anything to them so realistically I think that and the whole 4 wars and mass murder of black people is why IATD implies that long term annexation and perhaps statehood back into the Union is the full goal.
 
Which of course is probably the only scenario thats worse than trying to fully reintegrate the CSA as is. I could see surviving blacks being urged to go to Utah and elsewhere in the USA and Canada as well as perhaps Cuba and Haiti.But urging them to stay in the South or setting up a black republic somewhere in the South that still has a large white population would just be asking for trouble through that Israel/Palestine situation.If the USA is really interested in doing that successfully they would have to remove and relocate the vast majority if not all (as with the Mormons) of the native white population in the area of the black republic-which of course creates a form of Israel/Palestine but one slightly better than what we have OTL.Best to avoid the situation entirely. Some blacks would not want to leave the South but considering what just happened to them there Id imagine the vast majority would take the US up on it-probably a much larger percentage than went North OTL during the Great Migration and in WW2. Being black in the South would be harder post Destruction than at any time in history whatever the political situation was there. I also think its safe to say the white Confederate population was much more complicit with the Destruction both in direct knowledge and participation than Germans were with the Holocaust. Most of them dont see the Destruction as an unmitigated disaster and pure evil-so how do you live amongst that as a black person and why on Earth would you want to ? Blacks giving white Confederates the benefit of the doubt would very much be over just as it likely would be for most white Americans...
I would personally give independence to Cuba and give Chihuahua and Sonora back to Mexico as a goodwill gesture. And I would only absorb the states that opposed Featherston in 1933 (I think just Louisiana and Arkansas) and those with significant levels of pro-Union support (like Kentucky, Sequoyah, and Tennessee). Spin the rest off into an independent de-fanged puppet.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
@Worffan101, dang that's an interesting scenario and too bad you can't really write it since it might seem like copying Turtledove's idea. I find this TL interesting so far despite the fact that independence of the Confederacy is a little unbelievable. At the very least, they would be broken up into multiple republics. The thing is regarding superbombs is that the knowledge to make them is out there and once the CSA makes them they can threaten US cities to prevent the US from doing anything to them so realistically I think that and the whole 4 wars and mass murder of black people is why IATD implies that long term annexation and perhaps statehood back into the Union is the full goal.
The CSA would threaten US cites ?And what would the USA do about the CSA's cities ? Wether its multiple republics and an independent nation or 2-the best idea or even a single independent CSA the idea that the USA would allow any of them to obtain superbomb parity or any superbombs at all is lunacy.But even if they did by that point if they did the CSA would face total destruction because the USA at that point would have so many more bombs that you could leave off the mutual in mutually assured destruction.The CSA is a poison pill and better for the USA to crush it if the time comes rather than swallow it and try not to be too crippled by the poison....
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
I would personally give independence to Cuba and give Chihuahua and Sonora back to Mexico as a goodwill gesture. And I would only absorb the states that opposed Featherston in 1933 (I think just Louisiana and Arkansas) and those with significant levels of pro-Union support (like Kentucky, Sequoyah, and Tennessee). Spin the rest off into an independent de-fanged puppet.
Absorbing any CSA states that had strong Freedomite and previous Confederate identity as well as large black populations that were massacred into the USA isnt the way to go for many reasons. Its a case where not doing it is better for both sides.Perhaps in the future they can get to the point where they actually will want to reunite with the US and vice versa but it should be natural and mutual-not at the point of a bayonet because thats a false unity that is all to prevalent in the OTL USA.
 
Yes, no country collapsed in the way I intend for the US to, but the Soviets didn't try to annex East Germany, and erase Germany as a nation within their territory, in spite of having the same reasons Faeelin lays out for the North to want to eliminate the South (Attempting to wage a war of extermination is really worse than betraying a treaty and using a lone nuclear bomb now that I think of it). The Soviets didn't do it for a simple reason; it's an absurd proposition on the face of it, just as realistically it would be for La Follette.
I disagree. The *USA isn't trying to fight a worldwide influence war with another major power. It's pals with a typical imperialist power of the era that is moving into the global cop role.

The *USA is entirely capable, with sufficient ethnic cleansing, investment, and re-education systems, of occupying, pacifying, and integrating the former CSA. There's no major foreign rival to object on human rights grounds. The Confederates are hated and seen as a violent, hateful, inferior race by the majority of Americans.

IMO, the most likely outcome--assuming that the Confederates stop being amazing supermen who are individually worth ten Americans--is the USA engaging in a brutal 50-year occupation, mass-abducting white Confederate children to re-education schools, flooding the region with American settlers guarded by the US Army, and then 150-200 years down the line, saying "we're sorry" and letting the last few Intractable Rebels who put up enough of a fight to be relocated to a "detention zone" open casinos there.

It's something the US is quite experienced with. Maybe not on this scale, but we've done it plenty of times before. And that was just to people white Americans thought of as "primitives squatting on land we want", not as "the national enemy who are barbaric untrustworthy monsters who will murder us all in our beds if we give those backstabbing treacherous filth so much as an inch of leeway".
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
The Confederate States have a separate national identity that the United States also shares for them and it has one for itself that doesnt includes all and for some any of the Confederate States.That little fact is what makes the attempt at reunification likely to fail.Of course since such attitudes would likely be widespread with US government officials as well there is a good chance its not really ever attempted...
 
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