Or she could wait until Henry's attention wanes as it always tends to do? Dangling her virtue over Henry like a prize didn't really help her position, as it eventually didn't with Jane.
The Heirs of Henry VIII and Katherine
- Thread starter desmirelle
- Start date
Or she could wait until Henry's attention wanes as it always tends to do? Dangling her virtue over Henry like a prize didn't really help her position, as it eventually didn't with Jane.
Katherine knew about Mary Boleyn. Everyone knew about Mary. Henry even asked for a deposition from the Pope so he could marry Anne despite sleeping with her sister so it was clearly common knowledge. But Katherine had no reason to mention it because it was moot. The Great Matter was about whether or not she slept with Arthur and Henry marrying Anne was invalid because he was already married to Katherine.
As for Anne, you keep calling her intelligent, but so was Katherine Parr and she also had no choice but to marry Henry. I mean you have yet to give a way for Anne to escape aside from citing her sister despite Henry clearly not caring about it. What exactly do you think she could have done?
As for Anne, you keep calling her intelligent, but so was Katherine Parr and she also had no choice but to marry Henry. I mean you have yet to give a way for Anne to escape aside from citing her sister despite Henry clearly not caring about it. What exactly do you think she could have done?
I personally doubt she could have done much, she said no I don't want to be your mistress - I'm not entirely sure the notion that she was 'leading him on' is fair. I know what I'd personally call Henry's actions under a more modern lens, the word 'harassment' springs to mind personally but she's still a woman, he's still the King and the power dynamics are off. I personally think it takes a lot of courage to tell the King no when the given idea is he says jump, we all say how high Your Majesty?
She could have left court and laid low until Henry's attention wanders. Henry doesn't tend to hold grudges about ex-mistresses, unlike the way he treats his male friends that isn't Charles Brandon.
Can we please get back to the story? This TL wasn't even about Anne in the first place.
Great idea. Next, we see a death, births, a marriage, a stillbirth, and another birth. Okay, not all in the same post, but. . .
Went to begin on 1517, the internet went down and I lost what I'd been typing. Here we go again.
1517
January 13 - 14
Despite the medicines and sleeping draught, King Louis XII lay gasping for breath and moaning in pain during his fitful sleep. His heavily pregnant wife, Marie, sat by the bed wiping his feverish brow with cloths moistened with cool water. She had realized earlier in the week that her husband was not likely to recover from this, more serious illness than the 1515 bout that had almost killed him as the New Year began. Believing this, Marie had sent for their son, his daughters Claude and Renee, and Claude's children Louise and Charlotte. She hoped Claude and Renee would arrive soon enough to see him before his final moments. Truthfully, Marie had an ulterior motive for calling for her son: she had not the faith in Francis that her husband had. She could easily see him try to keep hold of the child in a bid for power over them (Charles Louis and Marie), regardless of the 'normal' progression following the death of a King.
Marie had ordered (unnecessarily) prayers and masses for her husband's recovery, although it was clear to her (and to the physicians, though they never admitted it) that perhaps they should be praying for his soul. Besides his long-time ailment (gout), he was suffering from a winter cold which had becoming a horrible, hacking cough and fever that plagued Louis and robbed of much needed strength for recovery. Each round of coughing (whether Louis was sleeping or no) resulted in phlegm of an ugly greenish color. The cloths for that were thrown in the chamber pot to prevent a mess on the floor. Now she dozed as fitfully as the King, starting awake every so often and using the watered cloths to aid him or wiping his mouth with the other. It was almost sunset and King's personal servants would be arriving soon. She got up to get more water and cloths and was just about to pick up the ewer when she realized the room was full of silence. Turning, she rushed over to her husband to find him quiet and peaceful, having given up his life in the moment it had taken her to go to the table. Before she could call for anyone, there was a soft knock, and Claude's face peeped around the door before the knock was answered. She saw the expression on Marie's face and looked back long enough to call for Renee before entering the room. Marie took her son, now King of France, from her and headed out the door, while Renee entered. Louis' daughters began crying as she shut the door.
In the next room, the Royal Physicians had just returned from getting the next round of medicants for the King. The expression on the Queen's face told them it was not necessary. She informed them, anyway, "My husband has passed" and they hurried in to make a formal exam and declaration.
March 1
Marie had been awakened before sunrise by labor pains and a very wet bed. Much to her surprise (after a sixteen hour labor with Charles Louis), in under seven hours, she had brought into the world another son and a daughter. Louis would have been thrilled, when she mentioned that midwife thought she was having twins, he had wished for a son and a daughter. She had fallen in love with her late elderly husband - not a deep passionate love, but a loving friendship - and began to cry when she remembered he could only see them from Heaven. Upon the arrival a special messenger days later, Marie's brother added prayers for the new siblings of the King of France, Charles IX: Henri and Elisabeth.
Despite the medicines and sleeping draught, King Louis XII lay gasping for breath and moaning in pain during his fitful sleep. His heavily pregnant wife, Marie, sat by the bed wiping his feverish brow with cloths moistened with cool water. She had realized earlier in the week that her husband was not likely to recover from this, more serious illness than the 1515 bout that had almost killed him as the New Year began. Believing this, Marie had sent for their son, his daughters Claude and Renee, and Claude's children Louise and Charlotte. She hoped Claude and Renee would arrive soon enough to see him before his final moments. Truthfully, Marie had an ulterior motive for calling for her son: she had not the faith in Francis that her husband had. She could easily see him try to keep hold of the child in a bid for power over them (Charles Louis and Marie), regardless of the 'normal' progression following the death of a King.
Marie had ordered (unnecessarily) prayers and masses for her husband's recovery, although it was clear to her (and to the physicians, though they never admitted it) that perhaps they should be praying for his soul. Besides his long-time ailment (gout), he was suffering from a winter cold which had becoming a horrible, hacking cough and fever that plagued Louis and robbed of much needed strength for recovery. Each round of coughing (whether Louis was sleeping or no) resulted in phlegm of an ugly greenish color. The cloths for that were thrown in the chamber pot to prevent a mess on the floor. Now she dozed as fitfully as the King, starting awake every so often and using the watered cloths to aid him or wiping his mouth with the other. It was almost sunset and King's personal servants would be arriving soon. She got up to get more water and cloths and was just about to pick up the ewer when she realized the room was full of silence. Turning, she rushed over to her husband to find him quiet and peaceful, having given up his life in the moment it had taken her to go to the table. Before she could call for anyone, there was a soft knock, and Claude's face peeped around the door before the knock was answered. She saw the expression on Marie's face and looked back long enough to call for Renee before entering the room. Marie took her son, now King of France, from her and headed out the door, while Renee entered. Louis' daughters began crying as she shut the door.
In the next room, the Royal Physicians had just returned from getting the next round of medicants for the King. The expression on the Queen's face told them it was not necessary. She informed them, anyway, "My husband has passed" and they hurried in to make a formal exam and declaration.
March 1
Marie had been awakened before sunrise by labor pains and a very wet bed. Much to her surprise (after a sixteen hour labor with Charles Louis), in under seven hours, she had brought into the world another son and a daughter. Louis would have been thrilled, when she mentioned that midwife thought she was having twins, he had wished for a son and a daughter. She had fallen in love with her late elderly husband - not a deep passionate love, but a loving friendship - and began to cry when she remembered he could only see them from Heaven. Upon the arrival a special messenger days later, Marie's brother added prayers for the new siblings of the King of France, Charles IX: Henri and Elisabeth.
I assume Charles Brandon will never marry Mary ITTL meaning it will be quite interesting to see how his friendship with Henry develops...I wonder who Charles, Henri and Elisabeth will wed.
That ship sailed with the birth of Charles Louis. The friendship between H8 & CB is already developed well (Brandon may well be H8's closest friend). And I'm not worried about the marriage of that trio of ankle-biters except as it affects the heirs of H8 & Katherine. I just wanted people to know who else was in the sandbox.
I hope so, too. I've not given Charles IX much thought and not consulted gaming dice about him.
Question: Does anyone know what killed Brandon's current betrothed (Elizabeth Grey, suo jure Viscountess Lisle)? All I can find if that she died in 1519, before her second betrothal OTL could be consummated.
Okay, I'll bite: if H8 has (at current) TWO living sons, how can everything still happen as OTL?
He could still fall for Anne Boleyn/Jane Seymour, though it already won't be like OTL. Perhaps Anne of Cleves is still queen of England, BUT as the wife of his son, not himself. Katherine Howard and Parr become Duchesses of York and Somerset (assuming the third son gets Somerset)?
But that's not OTL, in my definition. It's just assigning different parts to the people involved with the OTL. In respect to those who champion Anne: because OTL she refused to be Henry's mistress because she valued her honor and he has no grounds for an annulment - she's going to Ireland to settle the Ormond question (she might not like it, but Henry is King, and gets to decide her fate). Unless Katherine dies, Milquetoast Seymour (I know she isn't, save the comments, I'm going by how she presents herself) will have to settle for the mistress title if she wants it. Katheryn Parr (as she styled herself) will likely wed Thomas Seymour instead of the King (of course, all of this will flow from when Queen Katherine dies). Catherine Howard is more a candidate for Prince John (becoming Duchess of York - but I'm not sure she's been born yet, so maybe she isn't).
Does anyone know how Brandon's current betrothed died? There is a reason for the question.
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In Scotland, Margaret Tudor, now the Countess of Angus, has a daughter (Margaret Douglas) born in Oct 1515 (not to mention her son the King: James V born April 1512); Marie Tudor, now Dowager Queen of France and Regent for Charles IX, has both Renee of France (born Oct 1515) and her own daughter Elisabeth of France (born March 1517). We've got Hal (Jan 1511), John (1513), Mary Katherine (Feb 1516) in England. Charles V (Feb 1500) is the Duke of Burgundy since 1506, King of Spain (Castile and Aragon) since 1516 and, if things hold, he'll be HRE in 1519.
Can I get some suggestions about marital options for these (among themselves or with others)? Renee and Hal were once engaged, but that broke up with James IV started a war when H8 is overseas.
Does anyone else have (in an opinion) a chance of being HRE?
Can I get some suggestions about marital options for these (among themselves or with others)? Renee and Hal were once engaged, but that broke up with James IV started a war when H8 is overseas.
Does anyone else have (in an opinion) a chance of being HRE?
Renee will likely marry Charles V here (unless he do not get more-or-less forced to marry Isabella of Portugal). James V will likely marry one between Renee, Elisabeth and Mary Katherine… Hal will likely marry one between Renee and Catherine of Austria...
Not really…
Think Brittany will be a point of contention since Francis isn't King? Didn't Anne leave it to Renee?
The point is who that match failed pretty soon for reasons who had nothing to do with Anne or Henry VIII… Anne being able to marry Percy in a way or the other is a likelier outcome (as neither the Boleyns or the Butlers were so interested in that match)… Else Anne can end married to another noble in the English court
She died in 1519
No, Anne had left Brittany to Renee if Claude married Francis AND he became King of France for preserving the separation between France and Brittany. As the second thing had not happened, Renee has no claim alternative to that of her older sister