The New Order: Last Days of Europe Thread II

White officers could not betray anyone. They were not citizens of the Soviet Union.

The tragedy of the ROA was that Stalin and Hitler were equally terrible for a Russian. A man wants to live. But on the one hand, they drive you to the slaughter, and behind are the SMERSH officers who will shoot you. On the other hand, you find yourself in Nazi captivity and you will be starved to death in a concentration camp if you do not become a collaborationist.

With all this, you do not want to die and you know that if you surrender back to the USSR, a Soviet concentration camp is already waiting for you.
If you do not obey the Germans, you will return to the German concentration camp.
Nobody cares about your lives. ROA gave at least some hope to the Soviet prisoners of war for the future.

By the way, ROA-KONR occupies the best territory of Western Russia - there is a lot of industry and large fields for agriculture, the largest population.

Egads this is like a parody of bad propaganda.

Allow me to simplify things, the side which supported the general extermination of hundreds of millions and enacted plans for such is worse that the merely totalitarian state which doesn't inherently have those ambitions, let alone the TNO situation where the government isn't half as totalitarian and is actively fighting against a regime confirmed to have committed mass genocide on a scale heretofore unseen by mankind.

And yes they occupy some of the best territory because they.... wait for it.... sided with the Nazis in the West Russian War and pushed the WRRF out of those areas, causing irreparable damage to the front and causing it to collapse.

On a side note, I've seen enough of this "equally bad" crap to see where the argument is going.

(Inaccuracies about Soviet tactics are for a separate thread)
 
The tragedy of the ROA was that Stalin and Hitler were equally terrible for a Russian. A man wants to live.
Last time I checked Stalin was horrible but wasn't fucking Pol Pot. Hitler literally wanted to exterminate Russia as a concept, completely destroying its people outside of a small slave class. Saying they were equally bad for a Russian is complete lunacy.

Also Stalin is (almost) completely irrelevant in TNO given he never came to power and things like the Holodomor were avoided.
 
I'm talking about a real ROA.
In TNO, Vlasov may not even be captured, since the Germans captured Moscow and Leningrad in 1941.
Vlasov was captured in 1942, when there were battles around Leningrad, he refused to throw his soldiers out of the cauldron and was taken prisoner. And he was offended by Stalin.
 
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chankljp

Donor
This is a complex and controversial topic.
In Russia, some bloggers and historians call the Great Patriotic War the Second Civil War.
I want to note that in the context of TNO, Stalin was never in power in the USSR. And while the rule under Bukharin was still repressive, it was nowhere nearly as bad as OTL, with his rule being more on-par with say... OTL Brezhnev-era stagnation. Hence, TNO Soviet Union had no Holodomor, no great purge (The reason why Tukhachevsky was still alive), no Katyn massacre (Since there was no Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact), no de-kulakization (At least, not to the extremes of OTL), and no mass deportation of ethnic minorities such as Chechens or the Tatars.

Meaning that if anything, the KONR and the Whites were even MORE morally questionable (To put it lightly) compared to OTL. Since they are fighting against a Soviet Union that was nowhere nearly as bad as the one in OTL, while the Nazis were still every bit as genocidal and murderous against their fellow Slavs.
 
Speaking of that from what I've heard Kaganovich is being reworked into being less of a cartoonish caricature of a Stalin fanboy and Khrushchev is probably being removed.
Honestly, what I'd love to see in a Tyumen rework is Nikolai Bulganin having some sort of role in the regime as he was Premier at one point in the mid-1950s but doesn't appear anywhere here.
 
*Read this*

Well, aaaaanyway, since we are talking about cursed legacies, what do you think of Juscelino and Jango big chungus keanuu reevs being people who completely legitimaze Vargas New State dictatorship?
 
I want to note that in the context of TNO, Stalin was never in power in the USSR. And while the rule under Bukharin was still repressive, it was nowhere nearly as bad as OTL, with his rule being more on-par with say... OTL Brezhnev-era stagnation. Hence, TNO Soviet Union had no Holodomor, no great purge (The reason why Tukhachevsky was still alive), no Katyn massacre (Since there was no Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact), no de-kulakization (At least, not to the extremes of OTL), and no mass deportation of ethnic minorities such as Chechens or the Tatars.

Meaning that if anything, the KONR and the Whites were even MORE morally questionable (To put it lightly) compared to OTL. Since they are fighting against a Soviet Union that was nowhere nearly as bad as the one in OTL, while the Nazis were still every bit as genocidal and murderous against their fellow Slavs.
Then the Nazis would have lost the war. Most of the collaborators (Kaminsky, Voskoboinik, Vlasov, Bunyanchenko) in the civil war were socialists or Socialist-Revolutionaries and fought in the Red army.

2/3 of the collaborators hated precisely Stalin and the NKVD chekists for repression-hunger-GULAG-abolition of the NEP, and not the socialist system as a whole. If the libsoc Bukharin is in power - no one goes to surrender to the Germans, the Wehrmacht will get stuck in the western provinces of the USSR and will not reach Moscow.

If Bukharin does not attack Poland and the Baltic states, Hitler has even more problems. There is no need for Finland to help the Reich if Bukharin does not attack her.
 
Then the Nazis would have lost the war. Most of the collaborators (Kaminsky, Voskoboinik, Vlasov, Bunyanchenko) in the civil war were socialists or Socialist-Revolutionaries and fought in the Red army.

2/3 of the collaborators hated precisely Stalin and the NKVD chekists for repression-hunger-GULAG-abolition of the NEP, and not the socialist system as a whole. If the libsoc Bukharin is in power - no one goes to surrender to the Germans, the Wehrmacht will get stuck in the western provinces of the USSR and will not reach Moscow.

If Bukharin does not attack Poland and the Baltic states, Hitler has even more problems. There is no need for Finland to help the Reich if Bukharin does not attack her.
My approach is basically: if they backstabbed the Nazis at the first opportunity, then I can play with them. And interesting enought, Shulgin, the conservative vyatka PM didn't collaborate at all. Otl his son was in Poland and got a passport and send him to help him to flee to neutral lands, but as soon he heard that he had to say "heil you-know-who" he refused and prefered to stay arrested in Yugoslavia than to sell his soul to escape.
 
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Then the Nazis would have lost the war. Most of the collaborators (Kaminsky, Voskoboinik, Vlasov, Bunyanchenko) in the civil war were socialists or Socialist-Revolutionaries and fought in the Red army.

2/3 of the collaborators hated precisely Stalin and the NKVD chekists for repression-hunger-GULAG-abolition of the NEP, and not the socialist system as a whole. If the libsoc Bukharin is in power - no one goes to surrender to the Germans, the Wehrmacht will get stuck in the western provinces of the USSR and will not reach Moscow.

If Bukharin does not attack Poland and the Baltic states, Hitler has even more problems. There is no need for Finland to help the Reich if Bukharin does not attack her.
I mean, this is a scenario where Sealion was somehow successful, so don't read too much into Bukharin oofing here.
 
I'm talking about a real ROA.
In TNO, Vlasov may not even be captured, since the Germans captured Moscow and Leningrad in 1941.
Vlasov was captured in 1942, when there were battles around Leningrad, he refused to throw his soldiers out of the cauldron and was taken prisoner. And he was offended by Stalin.

They didn't IIRC, though the war was lost by 1943 so it was soon enough.

Which still ignores the point that the ROA were traitorous murderous bastards who should be about as lionized as the nazis they served. He fucked up an got captured, great. Plenty of others did that without collaborating.
 
With TBT now released, I would like to discuss the way that Japan now seems to be geopolitically throwing their weight around a lot more outside of the Pacific, in particular, when it comes to Africa. With the Pan-African/anti-colonial Cameroon being aligned with the Co-Prosperity Sphere with Japanese advisors training and supplying their military; And also over in Madagascar, in which if the indigenous Malagasy wins the civil war, they will become a full member/dependent of the Co-Prosperity Sphere.

Will be really curious about the implications of the Pan-African and anti-colonial movement being inseparably linked with the Co-Prosperity Sphere later down the line. With the Malagasy find themselves treated similarly to the Thais during WW2, with them being used as a sort of 'East Berlin' style showpiece for Japanese Empire's benevolence in liberating former colonies outside of Asia? Or would Tokyo not be able to keep it in their pants, and engage in the same type of resource extraction as they did in the Philippines? When it comes time for the Great Asian War, would the Japanese recruit African soldiers to fight against the Chinese, the same way that they had used Korean conscripts during WW2?

And if racial tensions got bad enough over in the US (Say, as a result of Wallace establishing universal segregation, Thurmond pulling a full reversal against RFK's efforts in expanding civil rights, or a Yockey Presidency).... Would the now (understandably) radicalized civil rights and black liberation movements embracing Imperial Japan and the Co-Prosperity Sphere as an ally and example of a 'colored nation' fighting against Western imperialism and white supremacy, the same way that some more radical elements of the OTL Civil Rights movement embraced Maoism or the Marxist-Leninism? Would there be American civil rights leaders fleeing to Japan as political refugees and be used by Imperial Japan as propaganda pieces showcasing the evils of the West?

Really look forward to when post-SAW Africa gets more content to explore these possibilities.
Honestly, I would like to see the Pan-Africanists realize that the Japanese really don't care when they see their exploitation of other Asian people in China and Korea. Plus even though they are under an "Anti-Colonial" doctrine of Pan-Asianism, they are still a Reactionary Empire. I mean the Japanese are forcing assimilation of other Asian people, plus Guangdong and Manchukuo should be enough of a demonstration that the Japanese don't care, and only seek to enrich themselves all while exploiting other people. I mean the Japanese are Imperialists, and well the only takeaway is that they aren't white. The Pan-Africanists, Black Nationalists, and Radicalized Civil Rights people claim that the Japanese are comrades in Anti-Colonialism, yet the Japanese occupy and are assimilating Korea wiping out the Korean language, culture, and way of life for Japanese. The same thing with Manchukuo, despite being an "independent nation-state" under a Qing monarch, it is basically undergoing mass Japanese colonization that is also seeing the local Chinese population being abused and exploited. Or heck look at Guangdong which is under the authority of Japanese Corporate Zaibatsus who are exploiting Chinese labor for production and profit.

These groups should realize that just because they 'Coloured Nation' doesn't mean they are better than the white colonialists they despise, and that they are also being complicit in Imperialism with the abuse and exploitation of others.
 
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Last time I checked Stalin was horrible but wasn't fucking Pol Pot. Hitler literally wanted to exterminate Russia as a concept, completely destroying its people outside of a small slave class. Saying they were equally bad for a Russian is complete lunacy.

Also Stalin is (almost) completely irrelevant in TNO given he never came to power and things like the Holodomor were avoided.
Stalin = Hitler.
Are you a Canadian resident? Perhaps you have a distorted view of the Stalin era, based on Red Alert, HOI, TNO. They say that Stalin / Yagoda / Kaganovich are bad guys, but they are tough nuts, fighters for world socialism.

This is not true. In essence, there is no difference between Stalin's and Hitler's. Stalin was the first to use concentration camps before Hitler, what difference does it make if you end up in Auschwitz or Kolyma? Both here and there bullying, hunger and death await you.

Hitler exterminated on racial and ethnic grounds. Stalin carried out genocide on the basis of class.

Here read just one of the thousands of cases of the utter hell of the Stalinist USSR.

Cannibal island in the USSR

Stalin / Yagoda / Kaganovich are incredibly damned people. There is nothing positive about them. The fact that he did not plan to destroy all the Russians does not change anything. It's like comparing a rapist maniac and a murderous maniac. Like, the rapist is better - he doesn't kill ...
 
Stalin was the first to use concentration camps before Hitler, what difference does it make if you end up in Auschwitz or Kolyma? Both here and there bullying, hunger and death await you.
Well, while gulags were concieved before Nazi concentration camps, this is not entirely accurate considering the British were the first to set them up during the Second Boer War, so there's that.
 
Stalin / Yagoda / Kaganovich are incredibly damned people. There is nothing positive about them. The fact that he did not plan to destroy all the Russians does not change anything. It's like comparing a rapist maniac and a murderous maniac. Like, the rapist is better - he doesn't kill
I'm a Nikita Khrushchev critical fanboy, what do you think of him?

 
Anyways, moving on, what do you see being the long-term prospects of a unified Russia in terms of how strong would they be here? What Russias do you see being the most powerful here?
 
Anyways, moving on, what do you see being the long-term prospects of a unified Russia in terms of how strong would they be here? What Russias do you see being the most powerful here?
I remember the team saying that the first was Tukachevsky and the second was the black league.

I would say that the weaker is Shaf-are-which one, it is not only an agrarian power, but also is diplomatically isolated and is persecuting a considerable part of their people.
 
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