All children of Charles VII live to adulthood

What if all children of Charles VII lived to adulthood? I'll give you an ATL list to make things clear.
Louis3 July 142330 August 1483King of France. Married firstly, Margaret of Scotland, no issue. Married secondly, Charlotte of Savoy, had issue.
John19 September 142620 December 1486Duke of Berry. Married to Anne of Burgundy (illegitimate daughter of Philip the Good), no issue
RadegondeAugust 142819 March 1444Betrothed to Sigismund, Archduke of Austria on 22 July 1430.
Catherine1431/143213 July 1446Married Charles the Bold, no issue.
James I, king of France (reigned 1498-1499)14322 March 1490Duke of Touraine. Married Margaret of Savoy (sister of Amadeus IX) firstly, secondly married Kunigunde of Austria (sister of Maximilian I)
Yolande23 September 143423/29 August 1478Married Amadeus IX, Duke of Savoy, had issue.
Joan4 May 14354 May 1482Married John II, Duke of Bourbon, no issue.
Philip4 February 143611 June 1486Duke of Auvergne. Married Anne of York
MargaretMay 143724 July 1508Married to John II, duke of Lorraine
Joan7 September 143826 December 1516Twin of Marie, nun
Mary7 September 143814 February 1478Twin of Joan, married to Albert VI, archduke of Austria
Mary14411511never married
Magdalena1 December 144321 January 1495Married Gaston of Foix, Prince of Viana, had issue.
Charles12 December 144624 May 1472Died without legitimate issue.

How do you think situation in England will play out with Anne of York being married to French prince?
There is also tree I made for:
James, duke of Berry (1432-2 March 1497) m. a) Margaret of Savoy (April 1439 – 9 March 1483) b)
1a) Louis of Touraine (died young)
2a) Claude of Touraine (died young)
3a) Antoine of Touraine (died young)
4a) Marie of Touraine (c. 1472 - 1 April 1457), married firstly, her uncle, Jacques of Savoy, Count of Romont, by whom she had a daughter, Francisca of Savoy. Marie married secondly, Francis de Bourbon, Count of Vendôme, by whom she had six children, including Charles de Bourbon, Duke of Vendôme and Antoinette de Bourbon, wife of Claude, Duke of Guise.
5a) Francoise of Touraine, dame d'Enghien (died 5 December 1523), married Philip of Cleves, Lord of Ravenstein (died 28 January 1528).
6b) Anne (1 May 1488 – 27 March 1505). Betrothed to Louis V, Elector Palatine, she died before the wedding took place.
7b) Yolande(16 June 1489 – 18 April 1519), married in 1511 to Louis V, Elector Palatine.
8b) Isabeau (24 April 1492 – 30 April 1564), married in 1511 to Duke Ulrich I of Württemberg.
9b) Louis XII of France (13 November 1493 – 7 March 1550).
10b) Charles, duke of Touraine (18 September 1495 – 22 April 1545).
@FouDuRoy
 
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So the ones without links are the ones that died IOTL?
Well with a surplus of children, Charles will be popular and his sons will be used as pawns in the struggle against Henry V. Perhaps if he and Catherine of Valois have a daughter, she will be married off to Charles' son. Also Charles has lots of children but little grandchildren...Mary can be paired off with Magnus II Duke of Mecklenburg perhaps
 
If James becomes king of France, I guess you assume that Louis XI has the same children and grandchildren as in OTL and that Charles VIII still dies knocking his head in 1498.
It reminds me of @Kellan Sullivan's thread about the treatment of Charles VIII in uchronies and the fact that, oddly, whatever the POD is, "Charles always seems to find a doorway that's too low to hit his head on". 😅
See here : https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/pc-why-does-charles-viii-always-die.484040/

Also, I have a serious problem with that:
John19 September 142620 December 1486Duke of Touraine. Married to Anne of Burgundy (illegitimate daughter of Philip the Good), no issue
The second legitimate son of the king of France marrying a bastard?

Your ATL Louis XII would be only 6 when his father dies. His mother Kunigunde would likely be regent.
Anne of Brittany is probably kept unmarried for several years after Charles VIII's death. Then, she marries ATL Louis XII as soon as he is old enough, despite the age gap of 16 years. Of course, if she still dies in 1514, they would have very few time to produce a child. ATL Louis XII may remarry to Mary Tudor the Elder after Anne’s death.
Alternatively, Charles, duke of Touraine, may be the one marrying Mary Tudor the Elder, if the marriage is decided before Anne’s death.

Louis of Orleans (OTL Louis XII) and Joan of France would stay married.
It means Joan would not become a nun and would not found the Order of the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary. As a result, it is unlikely that she would be canonized.
After Joan's death, Louis would probably remarry. He would not be king of France but him producing children or not would still be an important matter because of his claim to Milan.
6b) Anne (1 May 1488 – 27 March 1505). Betrothed to Louis V, Elector Palatine, she died before the wedding took place.
7b) Yolande(16 June 1489 – 18 April 1519), married in 1511 to Louis V, Elector Palatine.
I disagree with that.
I think Anne or Yolande would quickly have to marry Ferdinand of Aragon after the death of Isabella of Castile in 1504.
(In OTL, Ferdinand married Germaine of Foix because she was OTL Louis XII's niece. Here, Louis of Orléans is not king of France and Ferdinand has no reason to marry his niece.)
If Ferdinand marries Yolande, they may have a surviving son who would become king of Aragon and Naples instead of Charles V.
 
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If James becomes king of France, I guess you assume that Louis XI has the same children and grandchildren as in OTL and that Charles VIII still dies knocking his head in 1498.
It reminds me of @Kellan Sullivan's thread about the treatment of Charles VIII in uchronies and the fact that, oddly, whatever the POD is, "Charles always seems to find a doorway that's too low to hit his head on". 😅
See here : https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/pc-why-does-charles-viii-always-die.484040/

Also, I have a serious problem with that:

The second legitimate son of the king of France marrying a bastard?

Your ATL Louis XII would be only 6 when his father dies. His mother Kunigunde would likely be regent.
Anne of Brittany is probably kept unmarried for several years after Charles VIII's death. Then, she marries ATL Louis XII as soon as he is old enough, despite the age gap of 16 years. Of course, if she still dies in 1514, they would have very few time to produce a child. ATL Louis XII may remarry to Mary Tudor the Elder after Anne’s death.
Alternatively, Charles, duke of Touraine, may be the one marrying Mary Tudor the Elder, if the marriage is decided before Anne’s death.

Louis of Orleans (OTL Louis XII) and Joan of France would stay married.
It means Joan would not become a nun and would not found the Order of the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary. As a result, it is unlikely that she would be canonized.
After Joan's death, Louis would probably remarry. He would not be king of France but him producing children or not would still be an important matter because of his claim to Milan.

I disagree with that.
I think Anne or Yolande would quickly have to marry Ferdinand of Aragon after the death of Isabella of Castile in 1504.
(In OTL, Ferdinand married Germaine of Foix because she was OTL Louis XII's niece. Here, Louis of Orléans is not king of France and Ferdinand has no reason to marry his niece.)
If Ferdinand marries Yolande, they may have a surviving son who would become king of Aragon and Naples instead of Charles V.
Question, why will Louis of Orleans and Joan stay together?
 
So the ones without links are the ones that died IOTL?
Well with a surplus of children, Charles will be popular and his sons will be used as pawns in the struggle against Henry V. Perhaps if he and Catherine of Valois have a daughter, she will be married off to Charles' son. Also Charles has lots of children but little grandchildren...Mary can be paired off with Magnus II Duke of Mecklenburg perhaps
The ones without links are the ones everyone knows who they are. Henry V and Catherine are not going to have a daughter ITTL. Mecklenburg is useless match for French court, the duchy was poor and backwards and had no strategic importance for France.
If James becomes king of France, I guess you assume that Louis XI has the same children and grandchildren as in OTL and that Charles VIII still dies knocking his head in 1498.
It reminds me of @Kellan Sullivan's thread about the treatment of Charles VIII in uchronies and the fact that, oddly, whatever the POD is, "Charles always seems to find a doorway that's too low to hit his head on". 😅
See here : https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/pc-why-does-charles-viii-always-die.484040/

Also, I have a serious problem with that:

The second legitimate son of the king of France marrying a bastard?

Your ATL Louis XII would be only 6 when his father dies. His mother Kunigunde would likely be regent.
Anne of Brittany is probably kept unmarried for several years after Charles VIII's death. Then, she marries ATL Louis XII as soon as he is old enough, despite the age gap of 16 years. Of course, if she still dies in 1514, they would have very few time to produce a child. ATL Louis XII may remarry to Mary Tudor the Elder after Anne’s death.
Alternatively, Charles, duke of Touraine, may be the one marrying Mary Tudor the Elder, if the marriage is decided before Anne’s death.

Louis of Orleans (OTL Louis XII) and Joan of France would stay married.
It means Joan would not become a nun and would not found the Order of the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary. As a result, it is unlikely that she would be canonized.
After Joan's death, Louis would probably remarry. He would not be king of France but him producing children or not would still be an important matter because of his claim to Milan.

I disagree with that.
I think Anne or Yolande would quickly have to marry Ferdinand of Aragon after the death of Isabella of Castile in 1504.
(In OTL, Ferdinand married Germaine of Foix because she was OTL Louis XII's niece. Here, Louis of Orléans is not king of France and Ferdinand has no reason to marry his niece.)
If Ferdinand marries Yolande, they may have a surviving son who would become king of Aragon and Naples instead of Charles V.
Well, the marriage of TTL Berry to bastard is decided shortly after Arras and at that point Charles would resolve to great lenghts in order to placate Philip the Good. I agree with your reasoning as far as Anne of Britanny is involved (I kept Louis's children and grandchildren the same as OTL in order to give importance to younger children of Charles VII). Think I'll go for route of Louis XII (TTL) marrying Anne of Britanny at first and then remarrying to Mary Tudor the Elder. As far as Ferdinand is involved- French marriage for him was part of Italian Wars which regency government is unlikely to resume. However, Anne and Yolande might be proposed as borders for Vladislaus II of Bohemia-Hungary and John Albert of Poland.
 
The ones without links are the ones everyone knows who they are. Henry V and Catherine are not going to have a daughter ITTL. Mecklenburg is useless match for French court, the duchy was poor and backwards and had no strategic importance for France.

Well, the marriage of TTL Berry to bastard is decided shortly after Arras and at that point Charles would resolve to great lenghts in order to placate Philip the Good. I agree with your reasoning as far as Anne of Britanny is involved (I kept Louis's children and grandchildren the same as OTL in order to give importance to younger children of Charles VII). Think I'll go for route of Louis XII (TTL) marrying Anne of Britanny at first and then remarrying to Mary Tudor the Elder. As far as Ferdinand is involved- French marriage for him was part of Italian Wars which regency government is unlikely to resume. However, Anne and Yolande might be proposed as borders for Vladislaus II of Bohemia-Hungary and John Albert of Poland.
Anne and Yolande...might have better options because I don't think they'll be particularly accepted...why will Charles need to placate Philip? Anne of Brittany shall simply be "asked" to enter a convent
 
Anne and Yolande...might have better options because I don't think they'll be particularly accepted...why will Charles need to placate Philip? Anne of Brittany shall simply be "asked" to enter a convent

After Arras Charles VII needed to placate Philip in order to defeat English. Well, they're crowned Kings and mother of Anne and Yolande is a Habsburg, looking also to her family's good will. Bohemia and Hungary in addition are one of the richest Kingdoms in Europe of this time, with Poland not too far behind them.
 
Well, the marriage of TTL Berry to bastard is decided shortly after Arras and at that point Charles would resolve to great lenghts in order to placate Philip the Good.
Philip the Good needed peace too. And the marriage between Catherine and Charles the Bold is probably enough.

Italian Wars which regency government is unlikely to resume.
What makes you think that?

Anne of Brittany shall simply be "asked" to enter a convent
No because, if Anne dies childless, Brittany is likely to be claimed by this guy:
(He was Anne's first cousin once removed.)

mother of Anne and Yolande is a Habsburg, looking also to her family's good will.
Except that her family's interests are opposite to her son's interests: Burgundy, Flanders and soon Italy if Charles V still inherits Aragon.
 
Philip the Good needed peace too. And the marriage between Catherine and Charles the Bold is probably enough.

I didn't deny it, but in that circumstanses marriage between bastard Anne and second son of king of France is likely enough not to consider it ASB.

What makes you think that?

TTL Louis XII has no claim to Milan which he'd need to pursue + his mother is a Habsburg.

Except that her family's interests are opposite to her son's interests: Burgundy, Flanders and soon Italy if Charles V still inherits Aragon.

Yeah, but for a marriage to take place, Ferdinand would need to look for it. Do you think he'd seek French alliance with regency or just give up completely or marry a subject?
 
DUCAL LINES OF VALOIS (ITTL)

Louis, duke of Orleans
(27 June 1462 – 1 January 1515) m a) Joan of France (French: Jeanne de France, Jeanne de Valois; 23 April 1464 – 4 February 1505) b) Margaret of Angouleme (French: Marguerite d'Angoulême) 11 April 1492 – 21 December 1549)
no issue from either of marriages


Francis, count of Angouleme, later duke of Orleans (12 September 1494 – 31 March 1547) m a) Madeleine de La Tour d'Auvergne (1498 – 28 April 1519) b) Margaret Tudor (28 November 1489 – 18 October 1541) annuled 1537 c) Françoise de Brézé (1515 – 14 October 1577)
1a) Catherine d'Orleans (13 April 1519 – 5 January 1589)
2b) Marguerite d'Orleans (1528)
3c) Henri'd Orleans(1539–1574): Succeeded his father as Duke of Angouleme.
4c) Charles d'Orleans(1541–1622): Succeeded his Mother as Count of Maulévrier.
5c) Francois d'Orleans (1541) - twin of Charles, died 2 weeks after his birth
6c) Louise (1542–1591): Married Henri I de Montmorency.
7c) Marie (1543–1544)
8c) Diane (1544-around 1612): Named after her maternal grandmother.
9c) Françoise d'Orleans (born 1547): Became an abbess.

@isabella what do you think about probability of aristocrat (not king) Francis marrying Madeleine de la Tour?

Shouldn't Marie d'Valois (1441) have a different name if the other Marie survives?

Sometimes in that era siblings of the same name happened (see sons of king of Scotland where there was sometimes several living Jameses around), so I decided to maintain that.
 
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DUCAL LINES OF VALOIS (ITTL)

Louis, duke of Orleans
(27 June 1462 – 1 January 1515) m a) Joan of France (French: Jeanne de France, Jeanne de Valois; 23 April 1464 – 4 February 1505) b) Margaret of Angouleme (French: Marguerite d'Angoulême) 11 April 1492 – 21 December 1549)
no issue from either of marriages


Francis, count (later duke) of Angouleme (12 September 1494 – 31 March 1547) m a) Madeleine de La Tour d'Auvergne (1498 – 28 April 1519) b) Margaret Tudor (28 November 1489 – 18 October 1541) annuled 1537 c) Françoise de Brézé (1515 – 14 October 1577)
1a) Catherine d'Angouleme (13 April 1519 – 5 January 1589)
2b) Marguerite d'Angouleme (1528)
3c) Henri'd Angouleme (1539–1574): Succeeded his father as Duke of Angouleme.
4c) Charles d'Angouleme (1541–1622): Succeeded his Mother as Count of Maulévrier.
5c) Francois d'Angouleme (1541) - twin of Charles, died 2 weeks after his birth
6c) Louise (1542–1591): Married Henri I de Montmorency.
7c) Marie (1543–1544)
8c) Diane (1544-around 1612): Named after her maternal grandmother.
9c) Françoise d'Angouleme (born 1547): Became an abbess.

@isabella what do you think about probability of aristocrat (not king) Francis marrying Madeleine de la Tour?



Sometimes in that era siblings of the same name happened (see sons of king of Scotland where there was sometimes several living Jameses around), so I decided to maintain that.
Madeleine is unlikely but not impossible but Margaret Tudor is out of question
 
TTL Louis XII has no claim to Milan which he'd need to pursue + his mother is a Habsburg.
But the Italian Wars were not only about Milan. They were also about Naples. Actually, Charles VIII, the king of France who started these wars, did not have a claim to Milan either.
Also, I don't think Kunigunde being a Habsburg matters that much. Queen mothers usually defend their sons' interests even if it implies standing against their own brothers or nephews.
Yeah, but for a marriage to take place, Ferdinand would need to look for it. Do you think he'd seek French alliance with regency or just give up completely or marry a subject?
I do not imagine him marrying a subject.
I married a French bride in OTL. So I guess he would do the same.

Louis, duke of Orleans (27 June 1462 – 1 January 1515) m a) Joan of France (French: Jeanne de France, Jeanne de Valois; 23 April 1464 – 4 February 1505) b) Margaret of Angouleme (French: Marguerite d'Angoulême) 11 April 1492 – 21 December 1549)
no issue from either of marriages
Why would Louis and Marguerite have no issue? Both produced children in OTL.

Francis, count (later duke) of Angouleme (12 September 1494 – 31 March 1547) m a) Madeleine de La Tour d'Auvergne (1498 – 28 April 1519) b) Margaret Tudor (28 November 1489 – 18 October 1541) annuled 1537 c) Françoise de Brézé (1515 – 14 October 1577)
I don't think the title of count of Angoulême would be turned into duke of Angoulême if Francis does not become king.
Francis would become duke of Orléans, though, if Louis does not have a son.
As for the claim to Milan, it would pass into female line to Louis' nephew Gaston of Foix, duke of Nemours.
 
Madeleine is unlikely but not impossible but Margaret Tudor is out of question

Considering that in several ATL's on that story had Margaret marry Suffolk and IOTL she had married Angus (he also married him ITTL) and Henry Stewart - both more lowborn than Francis and less influential, Francis d'Angouleme who is definitely better born than Suffolk and acts as French ambassador in England + he seduces widowed Margaret and later on the pair after initial affection is over and Francis becomes father-in-law of king of France and thus his voice is prominent in French politics.
This, Margaret was destined for Scotland. BTW OP @Zygmunt Stary is Catherine in your TL a nun?

Oh, but she did marry James IV and she did marry Angus. Her marriage to Francis is a result of affection.
Which Catherine? Francis's eldest daughter definitely not.

ANGOULEME ASCENDANCY (AND ROYAL LINE OF VALOIS TREE)

Francis, count of Angouleme was a very divisive figure. An aristocrat of great pedigree, with not so great wealth, but great lust for women and ambitions, he was envied by many, hated by many, loved by many. His first significant "accomplishment" - though not achieved by his effort, but rather by biology. After death of his childless brother-in-law, duke Louis of Orleans, Francis became first prince of the blood and duke of Orleans (the most senior member of Capetian dynasty not directly related to King), and as such was the part of the embassy send by 21 years old king Louis XII, after death of his first wife, Anne of Britanny in search of another wife. Louis's eyes were set on Mary Tudor, younger daughter of Henry VII, king of England. She was reluctant to marry Louis, being in love in Charles Brandon, but Francis succeded in both convincing her that king Louis is an handsome, honorable man (the first part was definitely true - Louis was tall, muscular with long brown hair and blue eyes, many women were in love with him) and convincing her brother, king Henry VIII that Louis is an worthy suitor for her. Spoiling things a bit, here is the tree of king Louis's marriages and his issue:
Louis XII of France (13 November 1493 – 7 March 1550) m a) Anne of Brittany (Breton: Anna; 25/26 January 1477[1] – 9 January 1514[2]) b) Mary Tudor (/ˈtjuːdər/; 18 March 1496 – 25 June 1533) c) Catherine d'Angouleme (13 April 1519 – 5 January 1589)
1a) Kunigunde of France (25 October 1510 – 12 June 1574) married Charles, duke of Touraine (18 September 1495 – 22 April 1545).
2a) stillborn son (1513)
3b) Henri, dauphin of France (11 March 1516 – 1522)
4b) Marie of France (16 July 1517 – 20 November 1559) married James V of Scotland (10 April 1512 – 14 December 1542)
5b) Anne of France (1519 – 27 September 1547) married Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor and king of Spain (24 February 1500 – 21 September 1558) (as a second wife)
6b) Henri, dauphin of France (c. 1523 – March 1534).
7c) James II, King of France (19 January 1544 – 5 December 1560) married his niece Catherine of Scotland [1] (1540 – 26 January 1568)
8c) Elisabeth (2 April 1545 – 3 October 1568). Married Charles I, king of Portugal [2] in 1559.
9c) Marguerite of France (12 November 1547 – 21 February 1575)
10c) Louis, Duke of Orléans (3 February 1549 – 24 October 1550). Died in infancy.
11c) Charles the Posthumous, duke of Orleans (27 June 1550 – 30 May 1574)
[1] daughter of James V and Marie of France
[2] surviving Don Carlos
The turbulent 1520s were somewhat of a blank point in Orleans's carreer. Though there was major war - in fact, Louis XII attacked realm of Ferdinand II of Naples, who was Charles V king's of Spain cousin, Orleans did little in war itself. when Gaston de Foix shined.
Orleans was influential in negotiating peace around 1529, when 10-year old Anne was initially promised to Philip of Asturias, Charles's heir, but when Charles's was widowed he decided to marry his intended daughter-in-law himself, as she greatly resembled her mother, who was renowned beauty and began negotiating Philip's marriage to Maria Manuela of Portugal. It began his feud with king's estranged brother, duke of Touraine and husband to Kunigunde of France, duchess of Britanny, who was very warlike and was head of pro-war party.
In 1528 he seduced and bigamously (on her part) and secretly married king Henry's sister, Margaret Tudor. The marriage itself was born out of lust and the two quickly got bored with each other.
As long as Queen Mary was alive Francis kept being married to Margaret, as he wanted to be in Queen's good graces (Mary Tudor maintained balance between dukes of Orleans and Touraine), though after her death he sought annulment in hopes of male heir.
The King after her death initially stick to his policy, but when he began to seek hand of Catherine of Angouleme, Francis's eldest daughter, he gave his permission to annulment and helped Francis obtain it.
That, followed with duke of Touraine's banishment from court in 1539 and birth of Francis's eldest son incited to begin real Angouleme's ascendancy when he became King's top advisor and richest man in the kingdom.
He went as far as securing the hand of bastardized daughter of king Henry VIII, Elizabeth Tudor for his eldest son, Henri d'Angouleme. Elizabeth was raised as ward of Francis and she returned to England in 1552 when she was already a married woman, though her husband was 12-years old, who converted to Protestantism.
Orleans, influenced by his late sister was fairly tolerant to Protestants and did not persecute them.
He didn't live to see his greatest triumphs - his grandsons becoming kings. His female-line grandson, James II of France became king following his father's, Louis's death in 1550 and Henri's eldest son born a week before Edward VI's death- named Edward was named as heir by his uncle on his deathbed and adopted, started reign of house Valois-Tudor-Orleans in England. Henri and Elizabeth convinced Parliament to accept king's will as valid and they prevailed over supporters of Mary Tudor, Henry VIII's eldest daughter.
Elizabeth Tudor, duchess of Orleans was praised as new Margaret Beaufort as she championed her son's claim against her elder sister, convincing the Parliament that late King's will should be obeyed, that he knew best what's the best from the kingdom, that adoption makes her boy equal to Edward's trueborn son, that women have never reigned in England before and should not do so in future, though they can pass their claim to their sons.
Ultimate nail in Mary's coffin was her refusal to marry Luis, duke of Beja, Portuguese relative of both Charles V and Philip, prince of Asturias, as he was not a King. Both Charles V and prince of Asturias were married at that time - prince of Asturias was married to Isabel, only daughter of Ferdinand III of Naples by his first wife, Germaine de Foix and his heiress at the moment, so Mary's refusal proved that she is impossible to control in their eyes.
Though Ferdinand III, married to Anne of Britanny and Touraine, eldest daughter of Charles of Touraine, surprised everyone and sired an posthumous son, who became Charles IV of Naples.
And then we have Touraine's family tree:
Charles, duke of Touraine (18 September 1495 – 22 April 1545) married Kunigunde of France (25 October 1510 – 12 June 1574)
1) Anne of Britanny and Touraine (16 November 1531 – 1607) married Ferdinand III of Naples (15 December 1488 – 20 October 1550) secondly Francis, duke of Guise
2) Francis III, Duke of Britanny, (22 November 1533 – 1597)
3) Marie of Touraine and Britanny (16 December 1535 – 1598)
4) Kunigunde of Touraine and Britanny (1537-1581)
5) Louis, duke of Touraine (1 December 1538 – 1586)



But the Italian Wars were not only about Milan. They were also about Naples. Actually, Charles VIII, the king of France who started these wars, did not have a claim to Milan either.
Also, I don't think Kunigunde being a Habsburg matters that much. Queen mothers usually defend their sons' interests even if it implies standing against their own brothers or nephews.
Charles's war ended in 1495. He died in 1498, with no intention of returning to Italy. The return was caused by Louis XII's (OTL) claim to Milan and TTL Louis XII does not have claim to it and is under regency.
Yeah, that's right that Queen Regents defended their son's interest but is her son's interest to wage costly war in Italy when his kingdom is unstable and Kunigunde's position as regent is shaky at best?
She won't invade and Louis will attain majority in 1510, after Isabella of Castile's death when Castile is ruled by Habsburg and France is encircled. Initiating a war in such an situation without allies is an asinine move, so if the second part of Italian wars will happen, that would begin in late 1510s-early 1520s, not around end of XVth/beginning XVIth century as IOTL.

I do not imagine him marrying a subject.
I married a French bride in OTL. So I guess he would do the same.

You're right, so he will marry Yolande, and her historical counterpart, Sibylle of Bavaria did not have children, so he'll still die childless.

Why would Louis and Marguerite have no issue? Both produced children in OTL.

Well, Margaret did have children with king of Navarre, not her first or second husband and Louis did not have any children with Mary Tudor, so I guess he suffered from low sperm count in the last days of his life, hence he is kept childless ITTL.
Did title of duke of Orleans passed automatically to the next male relative of the family who was not a son or brother of deceased holder? I assumed that title would merge into crown.
And Francis at some point will become father-in-law of TTL Louis XII, so he'll climb fairly high.
As for Gaston, I know that Valentina Visconti's inheritance - so county of Vertus and Louis's claim to Milan would pass to Gaston, but I doubt France would fight for Gaston's claim. Though I have some plans for Gaston ITTL.
 
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Charles's war ended in 1495. He died in 1498, with no intention of returning to Italy.
Charles VIII came back to France in 1495 but his army in Naples capitulated only in 1497.
And I am not sure at all he had "no intention of returning to Italy". Had him lived longer, who knows?
Initiating a war in such an situation without allies is an asinine move
And, yet, it is precisely what Louis XII, Francis I and Henry II did in OTL.

But, well... If you decide Kunigunde thinks it is better to not pursue these wars, let's go for it.

Did title of duke of Orleans passed automatically to the next male relative of the family who was not a son or brother of deceased holder? I assumed that title would merge into crown.
The title is transmitted among male line legitimate descendants of the prince who initially received it as an appanage. The title merges into the crown only when said prince does not have male line legitimate descendant anymore.
In this precise case, it is this prince:
He was Louis' grandfather and Francis' great-grandfather.
If Louis dies without a legitmate son, Francis becomes duke of Orléans.

8c) Elisabeth (2 April 1545 – 3 October 1568). Married Charles I, king of Portugal [2] in 1559.
[2] surviving Don Carlos
No Sebastian I ?

Louis XII attacked realm of Ferdinand II of Naples, who was Charles V king's of Spain cousin
1) Anne of Britanny and Touraine (16 November 1531 – 1607) married Ferdinand II of Naples (15 December 1488 – 20 October 1550) secondly Francis, duke of Guise
You mean him?
His dates of birth and death do not match. I initially thought you had decided to make him live longer because of butterflies but even his date of birth is not the same as in OTL.
Can you explain, please?
 
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Charles VIII came back to France in 1495 but his army in Naples capitulated only in 1497.
And I am not sure at all he had "no intention of returning to Italy". Had him lived longer, who knows?

And, yet, it is precisely what Louis XII, Francis I and Henry II did in OTL.

But, well... If you decide Kunigunde thinks it is better to not pursue these wars, let's go for it.


The title is transmitted among male line legitimate descendants of the prince who initially received it as an appanage. The title merges into the crown only when said prince does not have male line legitimate descendant anymore.
In this precise case, it is this prince:
He was Louis' grandfather and Francis' great-grandfather.
If Louis dies without a legitmate son, Francis becomes duke of Orléans.



No Sebastian I ?



You mean him?
His dates of birth and death do not match. I initially thought you had decided to make him live longer because of butterflies but even his date of birth is not the same as in OTL.
Can you explain, please?
Well, before he died he certainly didn't behave like he wanted to return. And Louis XII, Francis I and Henry II were all adult men without blood relation to Habsburgs. Eventually, TTL Louis XII will also attack, but in 1520s, after securing at least safe border in England and attaining majority. OK, so I will edit my posts to make Francis duke of Orleans after I will have something better than phone to type. Carlos outlives Sebastian I ITTL and as son of his paternal aunt, becomes his heir ( @isabella it would work like this, wouldn't it?). I meant Ferdinand duke of Calabria son of Frederick IV of Naples who will be not deposed ITTL as Ferdinand won't invade without French backing him. Although I messed up numbering and he would be Ferdinand III of Naples in his reign.
 
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Well, before he died he certainly didn't behave like he wanted to return. And Louis XII, Francis I and Henry II were all adult men without blood relation to Habsburgs. Eventually, TTL Louis XII will also attack, but in 1520s, after securing at least safe border in England and attaining majority. OK, so I will edit my posts to make Francis duke of Orleans after I will have something better than phone to type. Carlos outlives Sebastian I ITTL and as son of his paternal aunt, becomes his heir ( @isabella it would work like this, wouldn't it?). I meant Ferdinand duke of Calabria son of Frederick IV of Naples who will be not deposed ITTL as Ferdinand won't invade without French backing him. Although I messed up numbering and he would be Ferdinand III of Naples in his reign.
Francis will become Duke d’Orleans here as Orleans would merge with the Crown only if the holder become King or all the male line of the first holder died (and neither case would apply here). Don Carlos is the heir presumptive of Sebastian meaning who if he lived (or left legitimate heirs) and Sebastian died childless he (or his line) will inherit Portugal instead of Cardinal Henry.
This Ferdinand is definitely Ferdinand III of Naples as his cousin was Ferdinand II

EDIT: Charles VIII at the time of his death was likely waiting the right moment for another campaign in Italy (and he also needed money and allies before starting another campaign there)
 
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