Most exotic plausible World War 2 standard-issue weapons?

[Carl Schwamberger]

'The Battle is the Payoff' by Ralph Ingersoll describes the flank march and attack by a reinforced Ranger battalion in the spring of 1944 in Tunisia. The Rangers used local livestock tracks across a mountain to circle round a Axis division and attack its right flank in conjunction with a frontal attack by a US infantry division. Ingersoll describes the Rangers doing the eight hour night march with packs. When they got to the battle area they could drop everything, rations, spare ammo, spare socks... in one neat bundle ready to grab later. Then they could fight in the light mode. The Engineer company attached tried to lighten up leaving the packs behind. With their pockets stuffed they did not have enough of what they needed & couldn't easily unload the surplus.

When I served we still did 25km forced marches, but those were a disciplinary and fitness tool. No one expected to do such marches in combat, but if you can do 25 km rapidly then three or four in combat seems easier.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Many nations had bicycle units in the 1914-45 period, for whatever it's worth. Italy, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Finland, Austria-Hungary, Germany, and probably others. Japan used them against the British in Singapore as well.

The German made extensive use of them in Western Europe. Looting France, Belgium, Netherlands, and eventually the homeland of bicycles. a large portion were used by support units for errands, as the motor transport declined and riding horses became unavailable.

The Viet Minh logisticians acquired bicycles to supplement the draft and auto transport. A porter on foot could manage at the most 160 kg. With a bicycle that could be easily doubled and moved faster.

 

[Richard V]

The German made extensive use of them in Western Europe. Looting France, Belgium, Netherlands, and eventually the homeland of bicycles. a large portion were used by support units for errands, as the motor transport declined and riding horses became unavailable.

The Viet Minh logisticians acquired bicycles to supplement the draft and auto transport. A porter on foot could manage at the most 160 kg. With a bicycle that could be easily doubled and moved faster.

And those are just standard civilian bicycles. If they had cargo bikes so much the better.

 

[mudhead]

The German made extensive use of them in Western Europe. Looting France, Belgium, Netherlands, and eventually the homeland of bicycles. a large portion were used by support units for errands, as the motor transport declined and riding horses became unavailable.

After the Netherlands won the 1988 European Championships, beating the West German hosts in the semi-finals, the popular saying was "we've got our bicycles back".

In 1944, the Reich was so short of transport that the III Battalion of each Grenadier Regiment of 17 SS Panzer Grenadier Division Götz von Berlichingen was bicycle-mounted.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

In 1944, the Reich was so short of transport that the III Battalion of each Grenadier Regiment of 17 SS Panzer Grenadier Division Götz von Berlichingen was bicycle-mounted.

No more automobiles remaining for requisition.

 

[Ravinoff]

The problem here, especially going over the Hump, is weather. Airships tend to get messed up pretty badly by storms and high winds, and those are not uncommon in central Eurasia (especially over the Himalayas).

Here's a thought, airships catching on for long-range/endurance ASW patrols - which nearly happened IRL, the US Navy built a fleet of over 100 blimps for ASW work that were quite successful. Capable of staying up for 38 hours and armed with 4 350lb depth charges and an M2 Browning. I know rigid airships were considerably more accident-prone, but they were able to carry considerably more weight (though I can't find any numbers for endurance, but the first transatlantic crossing by the Graff Zeppelin took ~110 hours). More lift capacity means they'd be able to carry more and better weapons and detection equipment, I'd imagine a rigid airship armed with ASW gear and proper homing torpedoes instead of depth charges would make enemy submarines very nervous.

 

[marathag]

'The Battle is the Payoff' by Ralph Ingersoll describes the flank march and attack by a reinforced Ranger battalion in the spring of 1944 in Tunisia. The Rangers used local livestock tracks across a mountain to circle round a Axis division and attack its right flank in conjunction with a frontal attack by a US infantry division. Ingersoll describes the Rangers doing the eight hour night march with packs. When they got to the battle area they could drop everything, rations, spare ammo, spare socks... in one neat bundle ready to grab later. Then they could fight in the light mode. The Engineer company attached tried to lighten up leaving the packs behind. With their pockets stuffed they did not have enough of what they needed & couldn't easily unload the surplus.

When I served we still did 25km forced marches, but those were a disciplinary and fitness tool. No one expected to do such marches in combat, but if you can do 25 km rapidly then three or four in combat seems easier.

The Gold Standard was to do better than the 20 or so miles a Roman Legion could do in a day.
But they didn't catch that was with at the end of the day, the Engineers were able to construct a protected camp, with all the gear brought along, with a 3ft deep ditch dug and that dirt set to make a low rampart surrounding the camp topped with sudis, wooden stakes brought along, with tents in the center
The marching time itself was around 6 hours.
Moving and entrenching, and making a defensible base.
Every time they moved.

 

[Questerr]

Here's a thought, airships catching on for long-range/endurance ASW patrols - which nearly happened IRL, the US Navy built a fleet of over 100 blimps for ASW work that were quite successful. Capable of staying up for 38 hours and armed with 4 350lb depth charges and an M2 Browning. I know rigid airships were considerably more accident-prone, but they were able to carry considerably more weight (though I can't find any numbers for endurance, but the first transatlantic crossing by the Graff Zeppelin took ~110 hours). More lift capacity means they'd be able to carry more and better weapons and detection equipment, I'd imagine a rigid airship armed with ASW gear and proper homing torpedoes instead of depth charges would make enemy submarines very nervous.

Theres a pretty good timeline on here from a long time ago about the US Navy continuing to operate Airship aircraft carriers for ASW operations throughout WW2.

 

[Gunnarnz]

The Gold Standard was to do better than the 20 or so miles a Roman Legion could do in a day.
But they didn't catch that was with at the end of the day, the Engineers were able to construct a protected camp, with all the gear brought along, with a 3ft deep ditch dug and that dirt set to make a low rampart surrounding the camp topped with sudis, wooden stakes brought along, with tents in the center
The marching time itself was around 6 hours.
Moving and entrenching, and making a defensible base.
Every time they moved.

They also tore down their camp before they moved off. No sense in leaving the enemy with a usable fortress right behind you, after all.

 

[Richard V]

As far as personal weapons go, was there a reason no army issued the Browning Auto-5 shotgun until the British in the Malaysian Emergency? The self loading weapon has been around since before WWI and was surely far better than a bolt action rifle at close range. They were made by FN in Belgium, so if it became an Axis weapon it would certainly be exotic.

Speaking of bolt action rifles. The duplex bullet could be invented earlier. It‘s more expensive to make, but still cheaper than issuing unproven self-loading rifles.

 

[mudhead]

Here's a thought, airships catching on for long-range/endurance ASW patrols

Theres a pretty good timeline on here from a long time ago about the US Navy continuing to operate Airship aircraft carriers for ASW operations throughout WW2.

It's here.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/us-navy-rigid-airships-1923-1971.310325/

 

[Gunnarnz]

As far as personal weapons go, was there a reason no army issued the Browning Auto-5 shotgun until the British in the Malaysian Emergency? The self loading weapon has been around since before WWI and was surely far better than a bolt action rifle at close range. They were made by FN in Belgium, so if it became an Axis weapon it would certainly be exotic.

Speaking of bolt action rifles. The duplex bullet could be invented earlier. It‘s more expensive to make, but still cheaper than issuing unproven self-loading rifles.

Normal shotgun rounds breach the Hague convention on weapons that may cause unnecessary suffering, because the shot tends to deform on hitting a body. If you changed the ammo so it didn't do that, they'd be fine.

 

[Myth]

Normal shotgun rounds breach the Hague convention on weapons that may cause unnecessary suffering, because the shot tends to deform on hitting a body. If you changed the ammo so it didn't do that, they'd be fine.

America used pump action shotguns in WW1 and in WW2 against the Japanese, if I recall correctly. The WW1 Germans made the same point you did, but I think they were ignored.

 

[Father Maryland]

Normal shotgun rounds breach the Hague convention on weapons that may cause unnecessary suffering, because the shot tends to deform on hitting a body. If you changed the ammo so it didn't do that, they'd be fine.

I mean explosive cartridges smaller then 37mm were also banned by the Hague convention as was air bombardment. Pretty much from the start it was observed more in theory then in practice.

 

[Father Maryland]

I suppose in WW2 defoliant/herbicidal weapons could have been deployed even without "chemical weapons" being deployed. I'm thinking cluster bomb type devices with each bomblet carrying Herbicide or IL-2 type "cassette" type arrangements with bomb bays capable of carrying a large number of small herbicidal bomblets. Or more traditionally larger 500LB type devices with thin wall casings and bursting charges designed to explode a certain height above ground and aerosalize the herbicide to drift over fields.

 

[ArtosStark]

I suppose in WW2 defoliant/herbicidal weapons could have been deployed even without "chemical weapons" being deployed. I'm thinking cluster bomb type devices with each bomblet carrying Herbicide or IL-2 type "cassette" type arrangements with bomb bays capable of carrying a large number of small herbicidal bomblets. Or more traditionally larger 500LB type devices with thin wall casings and bursting charges designed to explode a certain height above ground and aerosalize the herbicide to drift over fields.

24-D, perhaps the first widely useful selective chemical herbicide, was discovered during WW2 as part of a program to try and develop a method to destroy German Potato and Japanese Rice Crops.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Italy had some capable electrical engineers, tho not enough. Some tough choices in priorities led away from the development of radar 1935-1940. The evidence was there, but the research went to other things. Had there been some impetus for investigating the reflection of radio signals from objects the Italian fleet might have had some decent radar in 1940.

France had a understanding of radar & research programs, but like nearly everyone else failed to build a system for using it for air defense. Stuffy Dowding grasped the possibility in what the bright young men were telling him, and enabled the creation of a command and control system that could use the radar with a high efficiency. Had France been blessed with a air force leader with similar intuition it might have had, without the help of space bats, a effective air defense system in 1940.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

America used pump action shotguns in WW1 and in WW2 against the Japanese, if I recall correctly. The WW1 Germans made the same point you did, but I think they were ignored.

They were in 1900 & still were in the 1980s common items in the Navy and Army armories. Intended for use by the standing guards, and for imposing order on the occasional riotous locals. In the early 20th Century a ten gauge model was in the hands of the Marines as well as the common 12 gauge.

 

[Ravinoff]

They were in 1900 & still were in the 1980s common items in the Navy and Army armories. Intended for use by the standing guards, and for imposing order on the occasional riotous locals. In the early 20th Century a ten gauge model was in the hands of the Marines as well as the common 12 gauge.

10-gauge in military service? That's news to me, I'm guessing...Winchester 1887/1903 lever-action? I know in the '80s Ithaca made a police/"tactical" version of the Mag-10 called the Road Blocker (not to be confused with the Mossberg 500 Road Blocker, which was a pistol-grip stockless 12-gauge with a heat shield and gigantic Barrett-type arrow muzzle brake), but that's the only time I've heard of a combat-oriented 10-gauge. Only military shotgun I know above a 12-gauge is the KS-23, which uses 23mm aircraft cannon barrels reamed out to smoothbore and converts approximately to a 4-gauge/bore, but I understand is mostly used with nonlethal ammo.

Well, and every Halo fan's favourite boomstick, the M90 Close Assault Weapon System. Nothing quite like an 8-gauge magnum for ruining the Covenant's whole day.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

As I understand they were not 'military spec'. Off the shelf weapons. I've run across mention of those & twelve gauge of various makes as far back as the 1890s. One elderly Marine related circa 1976 to me how the guard room of his company (4th Marines) had a row of 10 gauge they used for riots. No details on make or model, but he said for minor affairs they had shells loaded with bird shot and salt. Buck for more serious trouble. This would have been in China around 1922-26 when he was enlisted. An account by a Marine NCO in the 5th Marines in France 1918 mentioned ten gauge shotguns & twelve gauge, for trench raids and assaults. Never met anyone from the Korean or Vietnam era who could reliably identify the presence of a ten gauge. But, certainly twelveguage. Also had people identify shot guns as ten gauge in photos of Marines and Sailors aboard ships & in the field. I don't collect photos so cant review those.