They are two different countries with the same ceremonial king - they're no more the same country than Canada and Australia are today.
The Footprint of Mussolini - TL
They are two different countries with the same ceremonial king - they're no more the same country than Canada and Australia are today.
How would OTL's center-left, social liberals, progressives, etc. view this World? And vice versa?
OTL Left probably would be see FoM being too pro-fascist and pro-imperialism. Not sure how they would react for communists.
And FoM would be horrified surviving communist nations.
Depends on what kind of Left we are talking about. Those who care more about actual people might note that by now Africa, expect South Africa is a much better place to live in for everyone than in OTL 2021. Likewise I'd guess race relations in the US of A probably also are better. The kind of Left Wingers who'd also consider it a positive that there's no DPRK and that China is much freer.
Whereas the Idologial Purity Uber Alles types would not not care that FOM Lybia is a much better place to live in than their Lybia even for the natives, they'd only care that it's still under European Rule and would consider it to be under European Rule even if it has as much autonomy as Quebec. Same "Logic" for other places in Africa that are better of, but still have large numbers of descendants of Colonists living in them, let alone in a power-sharing arrangement.
FOMs Left would probably accuse OTLs of having sold their souls to the Stalin and be mostly busy worrying how much political propaganda their worlds Rights is going to squeeze out of that.
Deleted member 169412
I dread to think what the average leftist would think about
I personally think that tensions between Vietnam and China would be significantly higher in TTL than actually outlined. Since the Chinese in TTL maintained Taiping Island in Spratlys and I have to assume Yongxing Island in the Paracels (l see no reason for the ROC not to do the same thing the PRC did in OTL when it reoccupied the island in 1956 ) there is a very high possibility for a limited military confrontation in the South China Sea in the late 1980s/early 1990s. I am thinking of something like a combination of OTL battles of Battle of the Paracel Islands and Johnson South Reef Skirmish. The Chinese would amass their forces near the Vietnamese border and maybe some artillery exchanges would take place but in the end, no direct military invasion would be carried out due to threats from France and ITO forces like Japan and the USA and cease-fire fire would be called. The reaction could also be similar to those of the OTL Russian takeover of Crimea with some token sanctions placed upon China.
I think that a military confrontation like the one you have outlined could be possible in TTL. IMAO the ROC would still use the same tactics of OTL PRC to gain control in the South China Sea
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Well, this otl progressive sees FOM as being quite a disturbing world, honestly. Many aspects are certainly better- higher development in the Third World, for instance- but it's also a world in which brutality, sectarianism and authoritarianism are normalized and seen to be effective. Italy became strong through Fascism, the Jews found safety through atrocity, and African-Americans found equality through separation. In some ways it's better than our world, but I think it would make me sad to live in it.
I'd also have a hell of a time deciding which party to vote for as an American, so there's that too.
Argentina and Paraguay left due to the pressure from America, but Venezuela stayed in the CIS due to their membership of OPEP.
Deleted member 170721
Very interesting. I hadn't thought of something like this. @Sorairo what do you think about this could you think about this possibility?
The China-Vietnam border would certainly be one of the main pain points of international relations between ITO and the CIS. But while there is definitely historical hatred, the fact both are now thriving, wealthy and (mostly) democratic countries means there is no tolerance for an actual war. The level of heat between the two countries on the issue is only slightly above the Liancourt Rocks Dispute between Japan and Korea IOTL. There is still a lot of artificial island construction in the South China Sea due to the great power games continuing all the same.
The Liancourt Rocks ITTL were incidentally seized by Japan during the fall of Communism in Korea and no one is interested in Korea getting them back.
IIRC list of popes is same until John Paul II. IMO this is bit odd since I can't see Wojtyla becoming pope ITTL since Poland ws already free in 1978 and communism wasn't anymore around so there is not reason for Wojtyla's choice. John XXIII, Paul VI and John Paul I anyway make some sense I think. But I am pretty certain that OTL JPII should had been butterflied away.
If that’s true then that’s honestly a little disappointing IMO. With such a radically different world by the 50s, when Pius XII dies there’s not going to be the same conclaves. For example in 1958 alone both Gregorio Agagianian and Józef Mindszenty, two cardinals from communist nations who openly opposed the dictators of their respective nations like John Paul II could’ve plausibly been elected. More importantly, IMO it would’ve been a good stylistic choice for FoM as a John Paul II type figure who opposed fascism (ITTL I’d imagine it’d be nazism due to fascism’s better reputation in the TL) and communism. Both could’ve inspired opposition to communist totalitarianism and it would be interesting how they interact with the world, fascism, communism, and how they change the Catholic Church. Who knows maybe a Pope could help transition Italy to democracy? There’s just a lot of possibilities I think where missed and considering the butterflies, past Paul VI it’s unlikely any of the popes stay the same.
I agree that John Paul II would be butterflied away as the Vatican wouldn’t need to worry about communism after the collapse of the USSR. I looked at alternatives to John Paul II before but this thread isn’t the place for that.
At the end of the day though it’s the author’s TL and I respect his choices. If Sorairo didn’t want to cover it or change the popes then that’s his choice and it’s fine to make that choice. I’d rather have him write about what he’s interested. In the end this post criticizing one minor aspect of TTL, I hope is just considered to be in good faith. The TL is still very good and very engaging and worth the read IMO. And admittedly the Popes story wise don’t have that much of an impact compared to South Africa, America, the USSR, Italy, etc.
Pretty intresting. Since Hungary doesn't fall to communism ITTL then Agagianian is more intresting. In toher hand I am pretty sure that by 1958 all of cardinals were already anti-communists anyway. Or was there any suitable Polish cardinal at this time? It would had been perfect showing of mid-finger to Moscow.
I think that it is bit hard to get anti-fascist pope. Fascists weren't anti-church and anti-clerical unlike communists were. And some fascist nations, specaility Spain and Portugal, were very pro-church. Only way would be such pope becoming after fall of communism (around 1973 - 1975) when Addis Ababa is still in fresh memory and war in Ethiopia is still ongoing. Perhaps this pope could had taken critical stance with human rights issues and colonial war.
Yes, this is indeed writer's own decision. And pope issue is anyway small thing on TTL. And I guess that it is kinda hard to research alternate popes anyway. Since you get alternate pope, you are going to get alternate cardinals and so thins might go bit dfficult, speciality if this alternate pope manage appont enough of cardinals to dramtically shift next conclave. And of course this pope might die earlier or later than OTL John XXIII did..
Eh, just minor quibble but they only had about half a billion during WW2, so not quite that large. Still significant but huge difference between 500 million and 1 billion.
Considering 552 Million of China in 1950 was 21% of the entire population of the world at the time, China's population was extremely large, even for the time
Not sure the point of your reply. I am aware of how large it was in compare the world at large. My response was strictly to the OP saying nearly a billion people in China.