TL-191: After the End

Is there any equivalent of "The Twilight Zone" in TTL?

Also what of TTL version of Rod Serling? If he exists in TTL at all.

Rod Serling doesn’t exist in TTL. By 2021, there hasn’t been a US television show that’s closely analogous our world’s The Twilight Zone.

However, many of the themes explored in the OTL show were present more broadly in the horror genre as it developed in the USA in TTL during the postwar years, especially the use of horror as social commentary and horror scenarios as the basis for psychological thrillers.
 
Well I understand what you are saying but this would have required quite a sustained campaign by the US government because we are talking about around 80 years of stuff and a substantial amount thats not directly tied to the Freedomites.I think that most Americans would not see much of a distinction but the existence of the Dixie Mafia and Roundheads after everything says that there is probably a significant portion of the white Southern population who does not see the pre Freedomite Confederacy as that bad assuming they see the Freedomite Confederacy as that bad. I know there was an attempt to re-educate most white Southerners as it were BUT when you consider the attitudes of most OTL white Southerners in the 1960s and later almost 100 years after the Civil War but here in a world where most of the black population was eliminated and there was a sustained period where large numbers of white Southerners were being killed as revenge actions from time to time it just seems hard to believe they were brought back into the Union as soon as they were.You do a good job of doing so but still....
There were debates throughout the postwar period in the USA as to the success of reunion, and on the proper timing on readmitting the former Confederate states, although this debate had largely faded by the time of the readmission of South Carolina in 1976.

The Dixie Mafia and Roundhead gangs of TTL should not be seen as representatives of postwar Midsouth society as a whole. Both groups operate outside the law, while the emergence of Roundhead gangs in TTL’s 1980s mostly occurred in large US cities outside of the former CSA, where migrants from the Midsouth were settling in large numbers.

The removal of CS monuments by the US authorities did require a sustained effort, especially during the first postwar generation. However, it was something that was ultimately accomplishable, due to broader postwar developments in the Midsouth.

-The departure abroad of large numbers of opponents to US rule in the region, mostly to Texas.

-The success by US military authorities in defeating attempts to organize anti-US and pro-Freedom Party groups to continue an anti-US armed struggle. Many of the Dixie Mafia gangs present in the USA by 2021 are actually descended from anti-US groups in the Midsouth that gave up on pursuing an armed struggle but ultimately continued as criminal operations.
 
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What happened to the Ottoman Empire in the 2010s? I know it was a dissolution, just need more details..
and what were the newly independent states?
 
So I'm a bit lost but was there any substantial material reparations made for the remaining black survivors of the Freedomite genocide ?

Also, how is the US South by 2021 ? I'm assuming one way to pacify the south is a combination of denazification-style education programme coupled by a more open immigration of post-war non-Europeans to reduce the political weight of the white Southern ruling class, and maybe perhaps a more substantial affirmative action for the remaining black survivors with racial quotas(?) perhaps for southern businesses board of directors/state legislature representatives ?

Also, perhaps in similar aspects to OTL German guards in Jewish temples of worship, perhaps permanent federal troops protecting some things like this world's version of Historically Black Colleges or other prominent establishments ?

America has had to do something for the survivors of genocide
 
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What happened to the Ottoman Empire in the 2010s? I know it was a dissolution, just need more details..
and what were the newly independent states?


This is what I wrote earlier about the Ottoman Dissolution.

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The Ottoman Dissolution began in 2010-2011, with the overthrow of the regime of Sultan Abdul Hamid III by the far-right Golden Wolves militia, led by Rifat Macar, who established a “regency” in Constantinople, with the ultimate goal of making himself Sultan. Macar’s overthrowing of the Ottoman government, as well as his stated goal of destroying or driving out all non-Sunnis from the empire, was the catalyst for what became the First Coalition War: the armed intervention, under the auspices of the International Security Council, by the forces of Austria-Hungary, Brazil, Germany, and the United States, along with continents from the respective member states of the CDS, EC, and the (US/Brazil-led) Council of the Western Hemisphere. The stated goal of this intervention was to defeat the Golden Wolves and to bring an end to the multi-sided civil war in the collapsing Ottoman Empire. However, the participants in this intervention would come to learn that while defeating the Golden Wolves was one thing, winning the peace was another matter entirely. Especially as other major powers, including Bharat, Egypt, Persia, and Russia, intervened in the Middle East in their own campaigns over the next two decades.

The Ottoman Dissolution in the 2010s also coincided with the Pakistani Dissolution which began in 2014, with the collapse of the Galal Khan militarist dictatorship, and which triggered both a major Bharati intervention and wars of independence by separatist movements in Baluchistan and Sindh, both of which were supported by the Bharatis. However, the Bharati support for Baloch independence, coupled with Bharati support for Kurdish independence, led to the rapid deterioration of diplomatic relations with Persia, which opposed both Baloch and Kurdish independence.

The Ottoman Dissolution and the Pakistani Dissolution, and the resulting interventions by outside powers and subsequent regional conflicts, were the key events of what would later be referred to by historians as the Long Crisis, which began with the Ottoman Dissolution in the early 2010s but would not end until the early 2030s. Armed conflicts that occurred during this time period as far apart as the Sahel and Central Asia, related, in various degrees, to the collapse of the Ottoman caliphate and the emergence of local extremist groups, would also be considered by historians to be part of the Long Crisis.

A major regional war that occurred during the Long Crisis was the 2012-2013 intervention by the US and CDS in Sudan, in response to reports of genocidal violence being perpetrated by the Sudanese government both in the southern regions of the country and in Darfur.

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By 2031, with the final end of the fighting in the Middle East, there are numerous successor states in what had once been the Ottoman Empire, almost all of which were part of the respective spheres of influence of several major powers or regional blocs.

Regional successor states by the early 2031 include the Republic of Kurdistan, centered in Kirkuk and allied with both Bharat and Russia, the Kingdom of Turkey, ruled by an EC-backed dynasty unrelated to the former Ottoman ruling family, and with Constantinople still under an Austro-Hungarian/German military occupation, the Commonwealth of Zion, a Jewish state centered in Jerusalem and controlling, more or less, the territory of OTL Israel and allied with the EC (though not yet a member state). Armenia was reestablished with Russian and Persian support in the late 2010s, as well as the large international Armenian diaspora.

The fate of Constantinople, in 2031, remains a center of regional tensions. The Germans and Austro-Hungarians fear that withdrawing EC forces from Constantinople and the surrounding occupation zone could lead to a regional war between Greece, Bulgaria, and the new Kingdom of Turkey for its control. The Turkish government is demanding the city’s return as a precondition for possible talks on joining the EC.

There are also numerous small states in the Middle East whose borders reflect where the fighting stopped at different points during the Ottoman Dissolution. In the western reaches of the former Ottoman Empire, there are multiple independent entities centered around major cities and towns in the territories of OTL Jordan, Syria, and southwestern Turkey, supported by the EC. These entities, many of which are refugee states, are protected by EC peacekeepers, and will ultimately join the EC in the long term. There are also independent Christian, Sunni, and Shiite states on the territory of OTL Lebanon (allied with the EC; there are two separate Shiite states in this region). There is an Alawite state centered in Latakia and Tartus allied with the EC, and a Druze state centered in an area roughly analogous to OTL As-Suwayda Governorate in Syria.

Further to the east, there is the Emirate of Ramadi, an independent Sunni state centered around the city of Ramadi and including areas of OTL eastern Syria (including the city of Deir ez-Zor), western Iraq, what would have been northern Saudi Arabia IOTL. It is unaligned with any of the major powers, and is focused on preserving its independence above all else.

There is a small independent state in the Nineveh Plains, centered around the city of Bakhdida, with large numbers of Christians, Yazidis, and Shabaks. It is a Kurdish protectorate.

In Mesopotamia, the Persians have a substantial sphere of influence that includes the Republic of Basra and several city states, including Baghdad, Samarra, Amarah, Karbala, and Najaf.

The Arabian Peninsula, by the end of the Ottoman Dissolution, is broadly divided into Egyptian, Bharati, and Persian spheres of influence, with Egypt dominating the west, especially the Hijaz, the Persians dominating the west, and allied with an independent Kingdom of Oman, and the Bharatis dominating a smaller area in the south. However, the Bharatis directly control the city of Aden, as well as the former site of the Ottoman space program in Al Mukalla, both in OTL Yemen.

The Republic of Basra, the Kingdom of Oman, and the Emirate of Abu Dhabi (which controls a large territorial hinterland) are Persian allies in 2031. For Oman and Abu Dhabi, this is less out of a genuine allegiance to Persia and more due to fear of potential Bharati expansionism. The other emirates which would have comprised the United Arab Emirates IOTL are Persian protectorates.

Mecca and Medina are both protected by an international peacekeeping force drawn from various Muslim nations.
 
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This is what I wrote earlier about the Ottoman Dissolution.

-

The Ottoman Dissolution began in 2010-2011, with the overthrow of the regime of Sultan Abdul Hamid III by the far-right Golden Wolves militia, led by Rifat Macar, who established a “regency” in Constantinople, with the ultimate goal of making himself Sultan. Macar’s overthrowing of the Ottoman government, as well as his stated goal of destroying or driving out all non-Sunnis from the empire, was the catalyst for what became the First Coalition War: the armed intervention, under the auspices of the International Security Council, by the forces of Austria-Hungary, Brazil, Germany, and the United States, along with continents from the respective member states of the CDS, EC, and the (US/Brazil-led) Council of the Western Hemisphere. The stated goal of this intervention was to defeat the Golden Wolves and to bring an end to the multi-sided civil war in the collapsing Ottoman Empire. However, the participants in this intervention would come to learn that while defeating the Golden Wolves was one thing, winning the peace was another matter entirely. Especially as other major powers, including Bharat, Egypt, Persia, and Russia, intervened in the Middle East in their own campaigns over the next two decades.

The Ottoman Dissolution in the 2010s also coincided with the Pakistani Dissolution which began in 2014, with the collapse of the Galal Khan militarist dictatorship, and which triggered both a major Bharati intervention and wars of independence by separatist movements in Baluchistan and Sindh, both of which were supported by the Bharatis. However, the Bharati support for Baloch independence, coupled with Bharati support for Kurdish independence, led to the rapid deterioration of diplomatic relations with Persia, which opposed both Baloch and Kurdish independence.

The Ottoman Dissolution and the Pakistani Dissolution, and the resulting interventions by outside powers and subsequent regional conflicts, were the key events of what would later be referred to by historians as the Long Crisis, which began with the Ottoman Dissolution in the early 2010s but would not end until the early 2030s. Armed conflicts that occurred during this time period as far apart as the Sahel and Central Asia, related, in various degrees, to the collapse of the Ottoman caliphate and the emergence of local extremist groups, would also be considered by historians to be part of the Long Crisis.

A major regional war that occurred during the Long Crisis was the 2012-2013 intervention by the US and CDS in Sudan, in response to reports of genocidal violence being perpetrated by the Sudanese government both in the southern regions of the country and in Darfur.

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By 2031, with the final end of the fighting in the Middle East, there are numerous successor states in what had once been the Ottoman Empire, almost all of which were part of the respective spheres of influence of several major powers or regional blocs.

Regional successor states by the early 2031 include the Republic of Kurdistan, centered in Kirkuk and allied with both Bharat and Russia, the Kingdom of Turkey, ruled by an EC-backed dynasty unrelated to the former Ottoman ruling family, and with Constantinople still under an Austro-Hungarian/German military occupation, the Commonwealth of Zion, a Jewish state centered in Jerusalem and controlling, more or less, the territory of OTL Israel and allied with the EC (though not yet a member state). Armenia was reestablished with Russian and Persian support in the late 2010s, as well as the large international Armenian diaspora.

The fate of Constantinople, in 2031, remains a center of regional tensions. The Germans and Austro-Hungarians fear that withdrawing EC forces from Constantinople and the surrounding occupation zone could lead to a regional war between Greece, Bulgaria, and the new Kingdom of Turkey for its control. The Turkish government is demanding the city’s return as a precondition for possible talks on joining the EC.

There are also numerous small states in the Middle East whose borders reflect where the fighting stopped at different points during the Ottoman Dissolution. In the western reaches of the former Ottoman Empire, there are multiple independent entities centered around major cities and towns in the territories of OTL Jordan, Syria, and southwestern Turkey, supported by the EC. These entities, many of which are refugee states, are protected by EC peacekeepers, and will ultimately join the EC in the long term. There are also independent Christian, Sunni, and Shiite states on the territory of OTL Lebanon (allied with the EC; there are two separate Shiite states in this region). There is an Alawite state centered in Latakia and Tartus allied with the EC, and a Druze state centered in an area roughly analogous to OTL As-Suwayda Governorate in Syria.

Further to the east, there is the Emirate of Ramadi, an independent Sunni state centered around the city of Ramadi and including areas of OTL eastern Syria (including the city of Deir ez-Zor), western Iraq, what would have been northern Saudi Arabia IOTL. It is unaligned with any of the major powers, and is focused on preserving its independence above all else.

There is a small independent state in the Nineveh Plains, centered around the city of Bakhdida, with large numbers of Christians, Yazidis, and Shabaks. It is a Kurdish protectorate.

In Mesopotamia, the Persians have a substantial sphere of influence that includes the Republic of Basra and city states centered on the cities of BaghdadSamarra.

The Arabian Peninsula, by the end of the Ottoman Dissolution, is broadly divided into Egyptian, Bharati, and Persian spheres of influence, with Egypt dominating the west, especially the Hijaz, the Persians dominating the west, and allied with an independent Kingdom of Oman, and the Bharatis dominating a smaller area in the south. However, the Bharatis directly control the city of Aden, as well as the former site of the Ottoman space program in Al Mukalla, both in OTL Yemen.

The Republic of Basra, the Kingdom of Oman, and the Emirate of Abu Dhabi (which controls a large territorial hinterland) are Persian allies in 2031. For Oman and Abu Dhabi, this is less out of a genuine allegiance to Persia and more due to fear of potential Bharati expansionism. The other emirates which would have comprised the United Arab Emirates IOTL are Persian protectorates.

Mecca and Medina are both protected by an international peacekeeping force drawn from various Muslim nations.
thanks, is there a map to show this? if no, its fine. just wondering. Thanks for your reply
 
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TL-191 2021.png

Here's the TL-191 world mostly looks like by 2031.

Errors on the map include:
Japan should be green because it is now ruled by the Ecological Union.
The area of OTL Papua New Guinea and Solomon Islands should be independent from Germany as East Papua.
Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan should not have their OTL borders (same for every other map from 1964 onwards).
Hyderabad should also now be a part of Bharat, having willingly been annexed by Bharat some time ago.
The Sinai Peninsula should be a part of Egypt, not Zion.
Gibraltar, St. Helena, Ascension, and Tristan da Cunha should belong to Germany, not the UK (same for every other map).
All of Samoa should be a part of Germany, not the USA (same for every other map).
Saba, St. Eustatius, and St. Maarten should belong to the Netherlands, not the USA (same for every map).

Those are the errors that I have remember/noticed. Tell us of any other errors David that I missed.
 
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View attachment 689542
Here's the TL-191 world mostly looks like by 2031.

Errors on the map include:
Japan should be green because it is now ruled by the Ecological Union.
The area of OTL Papua New Guinea and Solomon Islands should be independent from Germany as East Papua.
Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan should not have their OTL borders (same for every other map from 1964 onwards).
Hyderabad should also now be a part of Bharat, having willingly been annexed by Bharat some time ago.
The Sinai Peninsula should be a part of Egypt, not Zion.
Gibraltar, St. Helena, Ascension, and Tristan da Cunha should belong to Germany, not the UK (same for every other map).
All of Samoa should be a part of Germany, not the USA (same for every other map).
Saba, St. Eustatius, and St. Maarten should belong to the Netherlands, not the USA (same for every map).

Those are the errors that I have remember/noticed. Tell us of any other errors David that I missed.
This what I said to the now gone Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth:
I don't think it was ever addressed on this thread, but Romania would probably get Bessarabia after GW1 during the Russian Civil War like IOTL, despite being neutral ITTL*, and would still keep Southern Dobruja. Savoy seems to have been returned to Italy despite it not being addressed in the OP. Also, the rest of Alsace and Lorraine was annexed after GW1 while the boundaries still look like OTL. The Chaco War might still occur IOTL and Paraguay would still get a large chunk of the Gran Chaco. Unsure weather Libya and Egypt's boundaries would look like that but may have been butterflied away with CP victory. Finland would still have Petsamo. Unsure about Spanish Morocco and Sahara; I'll have to check back on that.

*See Filling the Gaps
On Samoa, with the U.S and Germany being allies ITTL, that would for sure avert the Samoan Crises of OTL and Germany gets all.
 
View attachment 689542
Here's the TL-191 world mostly looks like by 2031.

Errors on the map include:
Japan should be green because it is now ruled by the Ecological Union.
The area of OTL Papua New Guinea and Solomon Islands should be independent from Germany as East Papua.
Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan should not have their OTL borders (same for every other map from 1964 onwards).
Hyderabad should also now be a part of Bharat, having willingly been annexed by Bharat some time ago.
The Sinai Peninsula should be a part of Egypt, not Zion.
Gibraltar, St. Helena, Ascension, and Tristan da Cunha should belong to Germany, not the UK (same for every other map).
All of Samoa should be a part of Germany, not the USA (same for every other map).
Saba, St. Eustatius, and St. Maarten should belong to the Netherlands, not the USA (same for every map).

Those are the errors that I have remember/noticed. Tell us of any other errors David that I missed.
Thanks for the map. really appreciate it
 
So I'm a bit lost but was there any substantial material reparations made for the remaining black survivors of the Freedomite genocide ?

Also, how is the US South by 2021 ? I'm assuming one way to pacify the south is a combination of denazification-style education programme coupled by a more open immigration of post-war non-Europeans to reduce the political weight of the white Southern ruling class, and maybe perhaps a more substantial affirmative action for the remaining black survivors with racial quotas(?) perhaps for southern businesses board of directors/state legislature representatives ?

Also, perhaps in similar aspects to OTL German guards in Jewish temples of worship, perhaps permanent federal troops protecting some things like this world's version of Historically Black Colleges or other prominent establishments ?

America has had to do something for the survivors of genocide

There were reparations paid to survivors of the Destruction during the postwar period. Reparations claimed were handled by the US government. Cassius Madison, as well as the Remembrance Center, were both active on the issue of seeking compensation for survivors.

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By 2021, the Midsouth, both demographically and economically, is not in a good place in comparison to the rest of the USA.

Demographically, the region has not recovered from the events which marked a disastrous early 20th Century, including the First Great War, the Red Rebellions, the Second Great War, the Destruction, and the flight of over three million former Confederates to outside the USA, mostly to Texas, during the first postwar generation.

There were efforts by US authorities to encourage outside settlement both by US citizens and new immigrants. However, as state governments in the Midsouth would learn the hard way by the end of the century, there was little interest by outsiders in permanently moving to their region. Beginning in the 1980s in TTL, there was a significant increase in the number of residents from the Midsouth leaving the region for other areas of the USA, mostly for economic reasons. By 2021, the Midsouth remains a region that sees more out-migration per year than in-migration.

Different state governments throughout the Midsouth have attempted to attract new residents and investment by any means possible: it’s why gambling has been legalized in most of the region, as well as a wide array of recreational substances, and why there are relatively fewer regulations on opening new businesses. However, the promised great prosperity never seems to quite arrive, outside of certain areas (New Orleans and parts of the Gulf, South Florida, northern Virginia); even the relatively more prosperous regions of the Midsouth have been badly affected by the Great Housing Crash.

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Those who survived the Destruction did not remain in the Midsouth. Some survivors moved north and were absorbed into the existing US African-American communities. Most survivors in TTL left the former CSA in the immediate postwar years for Haiti.

By 2021, the Destruction and the crimes of the Featherston regime remains a source of deep shame for Midsouth residents. A theme running through many works by postwar writers, poets, and filmmakers from the Midsouth is trying and failing to escape the legacy of the Destruction and the crimes of the Freedom Party.
 
There were mentions of Confederate expat communities in South Africa and Rhodesia as well. How have they fared since the fall of both country's respective regimes?
 
What is the status of the Appalachian region in the US? Is there an appreciable difference between southern Appalachia (NC, TN, AL, GA) and the rest of the Midsouth, and between northern Appalachia (PA, WV, OH) and the Midwest? Has a distinct Appalachian identity been sustained?
 
What is the status of the Appalachian region in the US? Is there an appreciable difference between southern Appalachia (NC, TN, AL, GA) and the rest of the Midsouth, and between northern Appalachia (PA, WV, OH) and the Midwest? Has a distinct Appalachian identity been sustained?
If I remember right Kentucky and West Virginia are the bastions of what I'd call Appalachian culture with major extensions northwards (southern OH, southwestern PA) and southwards (*Nickajack and mountain GA, natch) - and the majority of all that has been part of the USA for much of TL-191. Including *Nickajack wasn't exactly supportive of the CSA's War of Rebellion both in OTL and presumably TTL, I would honestly say they'd be anywhere from "Southrons (considering their ultimate settler origins) who stuck with the Union" to "as distinct from the (coastal/lowland) Southrons as one distinguishes Quakers/Mid-Atlantic Men from Yankees/New Englanders".
 
What is the status of the Appalachian region in the US? Is there an appreciable difference between southern Appalachia (NC, TN, AL, GA) and the rest of the Midsouth, and between northern Appalachia (PA, WV, OH) and the Midwest? Has a distinct Appalachian identity been sustained?

In TTL, the most significant political divisions in Appalachia are a legacy of the region’s long divide between the USA and the CSA.

By 2021, West Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Ohio are grouped together politically as part of what’s popularly known as the “Triangle,” even if they don’t always vote the same way in national elections. The “Triangle” states have also developed a distinct cultural identity by 2021; for example, in the development of a regional music based in both local folk musics and labor songs.

The regions of Appalachia formerly controlled by the CSA have their own distinct identities from the rest of the Midsouth by 2021. These regions, beginning in the 1980s, also saw high rates of out migration to other regions of the USA due to economic issues.
 
There were mentions of Confederate expat communities in South Africa and Rhodesia as well. How have they fared since the fall of both country's respective regimes?

These overseas ex-Confederate expatriate communities, by 2021, have been reduced in size due to heavy emigration, with most leaving either for Texas or for Australia and New Zealand. In the case of South Africa, this high rate of emigration was also due to the continuation of conflict in the country that followed the overthrow of the last apartheid regime by the joint Austro-Hungarian/German/Portuguese intervention in the 1970s.
 
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