A Map Shitpost Thread

Do people want a WIP thread?

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Ohio won't absorb the rump Pennsylvania; Ohio and Southwestern Pennsylvania have almost the same number of people, and Ohio has definitely fewer white people. Do you mean Indiana? The first white settlers in that part of Indiana won't come until 1806.

Also, let me show you a map:

View attachment 674685

For that portion of Pennsylvania, the population is around 80,000. For Ohio, the total state population would be around 70,000. Hamilton County, though, would have something like ~20,000 of them and the Ohio River area would have something like 5,000 of them, leaving 45,000. Northwest Ohio was designated as Indian Reservation until 1802, so it's likely there aren't many white people there. There is no way to tell how many Native Americans are in Ohio at this time, but I would put my guess at 10-20,000. West Virginia's portion probably has somewhere around 20,000 as well, but that region is all but governed from Pittsburgh. It bears mentioning that a significant portion of the population here at the time were born in Scotland and Ireland; Pittsburgh was a regional center of Scots-Irish culture until it began booming in the 1810s.

Transylvania represents a massive defensive buffer for Austria against the Ottomans in the Carpathian Mountains; without castles and garrisons to defend it, the Emperor may feel exposed. It also bears mentioning that land is money in this era; any food grown in a territory was gold directly in the Emperor's pocket, and the Habsburgs will need to compensate for the sudden loss of tax income in Transylvania. The area might become a vassal state or protectorate of the Empire, much in the same way Transylvania was before 1711.

If the United States is allowed to govern a republic in the heart of Monarchist Europe, it would represent a threat to every monarch there. The French murdered their king just 14 years ago, and the United States is reckoned to be cut from that same cloth. Allowing an independent, republican Pennsylvania-Ohio in Europe is not an option. At best, the United States could secure a promise to respect the traditions and freedoms of the two states in exchange for an ongoing sum of money. It would probably be most politically expedient for Congress to simply declare the lost Americans as emigrants.

Transylvania in North America is going to put the US between a rock and a hard place. They can't govern their European territories or they would anger large portions of Europe. The idea of granting citizenship to more than 2 million people who have no idea how democracy works would be a complete non-starter to Americans at this time, given that the total national population is just under 6 million. What's more, the US has no standing army, and couldn't take it over even if they wanted to.

Diplomatically speaking, the inhabitants of Transylvania are most similar to Native Americans living beyond US government jurisdiction. The Federal government has sole power to conduct diplomacy and negotiate treaties with them, and they are not subject to direct taxation by the United States. There are two differences here: one, the US does not have military superiority and cannot afford to negotiate treaties in bad faith; two, the inhabitants here are white and Christian.

Transylvania can be divided into two regions: Transylvania Proper and Partium. Partium is a full part of the Hungarian Crown and is ruled by Hungarian nobility under the same rules as the rest of Hungary; the nobles rule their domains autonomously but their privileges had been temporarily curtailed from 1781-1790. Most of their rights were restored and the Emperor since then, Francis II, was almost pathologically resistant to change, so the nobles were content for the time being. They were, however, forced to give up their Roma slaves.
Transylvania Proper is ruled by the Union of Three Nations, these being the Nobility, the Szekely, and the Saxons. These function as classes or estates. The Nobility, like those in Partium, are mostly Hungarian-speaking and make up the upper class; the Szekely, also Hungarian-speaking, represented a free military class who traditionally supplied soldiers and officers. The Saxons were German-speaking, and they made up the wealthy patrician class. The peasants, most of them Romanian-speaking, were not represented in this power structure because they were considered Orthodox heretics.
The closest thing to a central authority in Transylvania is the Gubernium, a local noble appointed by the Emperor whose job it was to make sure Imperial edicts were followed; he sat in Hermannstadt (now Sibiu). The closest thing to a governing body in Transylvania was the Diet, which was the convention of all the nobles (some 50-60 of them at this time). The Diet was supposed to convene annually. In reality it convened twice between 1794 and 1835.
I'm still curious about how the Civil War will play out. I'm assuming boring old neutrality in the same fashion as Britain. Unless the Nobility tries something stupid. Assuming the nobility would still be in power after decades of being surrounded by Freedomland. Transylvania could be an possibly be an independent democracy or constitutional monarchy by 1850-1860 whenever the US splits. Not saying they'll take over Transylvania, but the numbers would be in Unions favor should conflict happen at that point.
 
I found a book online that outlines the history of Transylvania.
The largest cities in Transylvania at this time are Brasso (Brasov) with 17,800 people, Hermannstadt with 14,100, and Koloszvar (Cluj-Napoca) with 13,900.
Wages do not, in general, exist, and the market is mainly for luxury goods. In terms of budget, there is an overall deficit of 840,000 forints (based on the value of silver at the time, this is probably around $420,000 USD). The major export goods are unprocessed flax and hemp, refined iron, and wool textiles.
Peasants were not legally tied to the land, but they were still obligated to fulfill labor requirements to their lords. Many ran away but the improved administrative system made it easier to track them down. It was common for Romanian peasants to demand to be allowed to serve as border guards and thereby no longer become peasants, but the role was restricted to Szekelys. Socially speaking, this era is remarkably stable.
The prominent nobles of the era followed the principles of enlightened absolutism and expanded the civil service significantly. The Governor was not appointed by the Emperor, but elected by the Diet. The pre-eminent statesman of the era is one Gyorgy Banffy. Many of them were founding members of Masonic lodges, but freemasonry was outlawed in 1790. There were even public health officials in the form of municipal physicians. When these nobles died in the 1820s, the quality of government declined.
The Saxon Transylvanian cultural center is Hermannstadt, while the Hungarian Transylvanian cultural center, oddly enough, is Vienna. The Hungarian-language cultural scene lags far behind, and the Romanian-language one is negligible.

The book spends a lot of pages describing the 1791 reforms. To summarize:

In 1790, Emperor Joseph II died and in his deathbed he undid many unpopular reforms that he had forced on Transylvania, such as stripping nobles of their legal immunity and tax exempt status and changing the official language from Latin to German. Transylvanians were glad that these were overturned and set about making sure that future Emperors wouldn't be able to do something similar.
In 1791, the Diet passed a wide array of laws reforming the legal and governing system in the territory, including a constitution. Romanians submitted a petition to the Diet demanding civil rights and political representation and were denied. For these reforms to come into effect, they had to be approved by the central government (the Emperor) in Vienna. The central government accepted almost none of these, except minor ones and ones that reaffirmed the rights of non-peasants.
The Transylvanian diet created a series of committees for investigating matters of economic and social policy. The committees were headed by experts and intensely studied Transylvania's society, legal system, economy, and so on. In 1794 the reports were finished; in their finished form they recommended some far-reaching progressive revisions to the entire legal system.
When the reports were brought before the Diet for debate, the Diet ended up arguing with the Gubernium over what order to debate them and ultimately shelved the reports. In 1810 the Diet looked at the reports again and decided to pass some limited and rather conservative reforms. In 1834, the Imperial government decided to give these reforms a look; of those present, 220 were royalists and 35 were reformists. The diet rejected five-sixths of the reforms.

There is a lot of energy for reform and change in Romania of this era, but it seems there is very little interest among the nobility and government for actually implementing them. Transylvania is already very behind in Europe, and thoroughly feudal in character.
 
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I'm still curious about how the Civil War will play out. I'm assuming boring old neutrality in the same fashion as Britain. Unless the Nobility tries something stupid. Assuming the nobility would still be in power after decades of being surrounded by Freedomland. Transylvania could be an possibly be an independent democracy or constitutional monarchy by 1850-1860 whenever the US splits. Not saying they'll take over Transylvania, but the numbers would be in Unions favor should conflict happen at that point.
In OTL, Mechanization of agriculture beginning in the 1830s led to a population boom and enough of a surplus to fuel a market economy and power urbanization. By the 1860s, Transylvania had about as many people as New York, which was at the time the most populous state.

The American public, on principle, would be opposed to the Noble-dominated feudal political system in Transylvania. Northern abolitionists would equate it with slavery, but Southerners would probably dispute the comparison since in this case the peasants are white. Since Transylvania is overwhelmingly rural and slow to mechanize, its economy will be weak and it will have little ability to trade with the US.

In the first years after the ISOT, Transylvanian nobles would probably become increasingly aware of American influence in their politics; the more reformist nobles would probably make frequent trips to the States to drum up political support, which would directly threaten the rights and privileges that the nobility had been working so hard to preserve. There would probably be an internal power struggle where the reformers would be forced to flee the country.

The attitude of the United States towards peasant settlement would probably change and shift depending on the political climate. Before 1830, US politicians wanted to set a moderate price on frontier land so that the proceeds could pay off the national debt. The idea of allowing non-English speaking squatters to settle there for free won't be popular; the easiest solution would be to allow Transylvanian soldiers to enter western territory for the purpose of recapturing peasants who entered US territory with significant debt (which, due to the system in place, is all of them)

Assuming the US maintains its nominal territorial claim over the area Transylvania occupies, the nobility will be keenly aware that the United States represents a threat to their way of life. They might side with the British in the war of 1812, seeking to acquire the rest of the Northwest Territory for themselves. The Szekely troops number in the tens of thousands, which is more than either the US or the British can raise in the early stages of the war. The Szekelys could probably march south and raze Saint Louis to the ground, but because the area is so unpopulated it would be impossible to provision them, so they would have to retreat. The US might be forced to recognize Transylvania's independence in the aftermath, but I think it might end up with no territory exchanged as in OTL. Britain would probably try to prop up Transylvania as a regional power in the Great Lakes to keep the US from controlling the area.

It's anyone's guess how Transylvania and the US will end up divvying up the North West Territory. The US would probably advocate free homesteading earlier than OTL in an effort to keep Transylvania from expanding and increase support for escaping Romanian peasants. As some Romanians flee westward to purchase land, others would gather in US cities and begin to form their own literary scene, which would in tie contribute to a Romanian Transylvanian national awakening.

In the 1820s, younger, more reformist nobles such as Miklos Wesselenyi will become more prominent. In the 1830s, greater mechanization on farms will lead to higher surpluses, which will allow towns to support market economies. Meanwhile, the US population beyond the Appalachians grows to rival Transylvania's population, which is still growing slowly. Increased trade leads to increased demand for luxury goods such as cotton, which they can get through trade with the US. Transylvania will find that a belligerent attitude towards the US is unsustainable and instead fosters a more positive relationship with the US. Urban craftsmen and guild members are attracted to American cities by high wages in factories, which weakens the power of the guilds and allows merchants and capitalists to fill in that gap.

As travel between the US and Transylvania increases, republican ideals will filter its way into the upper and lower classes; the question is not if, but when. In OTL, the attempt to abolish serfdom in 1848 led to a full-blown peasant revolt; Hungarian nobles tried to manipulate the situation to keep the serfs in subservient positions and the peasants revolted. My guess is that sometime in the 1830s, there will be some kind of Romanian awakening. Perhaps it could coincide with upstate New York's Anti-Rent war of 1838.
The end result of the Transylvanian Revolution may not be a full democracy; rather, I think it's likely that it would become a constitutional monarchy. In the early days of the switch, the Diet would probably elect a Prince to serve as the head of state, and they'd likely chose Gyorgyi Banffy, who was a prominent statesmen from an old and powerful family. Banffy was himself fairly reform-minded and would pass away in 1822. If the monarchy can retain good relations with the peasantry (which is not difficult; since the King is distant he often gets none of the blame for hardship) then the basic structure of the monarchy would likely stay in place. Romanian literati (of whom there were few) periodically proposed expanding the Diet to include proportional representation for Romanians, which would give them around 55% of the Diet; the nobility wouldn't allow that, since it would render them effectively powerless. They would be more likely to accept splitting the Diet into one house populated by landed nobility (the 250 or so already in the Diet) and one apportioned according to overall population and ethnic group, not unlike the UK's House of Lords and House of Commons.

By the 1840s, the US's population beyond the Appalachians will have grown to the point where Americans outnumber Transylvanians. Since Transylvania is relatively densely populated, though (it has the population density of New Jersey in 1840), it's not really suitable for settlement or homesteading, so the US doesn't have much use for its land. The areas of Indiana and Michigan that are primarily Romanian-speaking would probably be a contentious issue, as Romanian settlers there would seek to become independent from the US by the same logic that Texas became independent from Mexico. However, the US would not tolerate this and suppress any revolts, which would result in tense relations with Transylvania.

Transylvania's stance on slavery in the 1860s would depend on many factors, including their economic reliance on cotton. However, it's likely that they would oppose the practice on principle, drawing from their own experience with serfdom. However, whether that translates to full Northern support is uncertain. Since this is a US-internal matter, I think the official stance of Transylvania would be to remain neutral, but continue trading with the North.

Transylvania may or may not become a stop on the underground railroad; while it's conveniently located next to Kentucky and presumably not subject to fugitive state laws and so on, they could absorb a decent number of escaped slaves; the 100,000 that fled in OTL would represent just 5% of Transylvania's population, which would make them about as numerous as Roma. (speaking of whom, it's practically guaranteed that Roma would be more prominent in the US in this timeline)

By the 20th century, Romania would probably just end up as a fully independent country between the US and Canada, with Romanian, Hungarian, German, and English as official languages. It would lag developmentally behind the US, at least until the latter half of the 20th century.
 
Danubian monarchy.
Like really Danubian
00 Q-Bam 1914.png
 
If you're basing it on Austria-Hungary you're missing Bosnia and Herzegovina, half of Montenegro, almost all of Serbia, a bit of Switzerland (half of Grisons is part of the Danube watershed), and Sofia, Bulgaria.
Indeed!
Even if I may argue, that Bosnia and eastern Montenegro iaren´t connected with Danube directly...
Truth is, that at first, I was going with idea how could mostly peacefully Habsburg divide Balkan with Ottomans - so parts of borders are trying to honor ethnic/religion boundaries or possible new natural borders while others don´t...
 
Danubian monarchy.
Like really Danubian
View attachment 680533
I take it we are having a few more Military Frontiers here. I also see due to missing pixels (or slight border changes?) that Austrian Silesia is now in one piece and Küstenland is part of Carinthia. I would like to see someone make a semi-serious map like this including those elements, with or without them having a lovely system of mixed civil and military governments in the south bank Danubian kingdom here. I wonder what they call it here? They went with the Triune Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia, and Dalmatia while only having Slavonia and Croatia. Fivefold Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia, Dalmatia, Serbia, and Eastern Rumelia? I was going to suggest Moesia for the Bulgarian part, but looking it up I see the Romans had Serbia as Moesia Superior and had Dobruja and northern Bulgaria as Moesia Inferior. There is an idea for those of you out there who want a name less practical than Yugoslavia. Anyways, a fun little map, as maps in here should be.
 
I take it we are having a few more Military Frontiers here. I also see due to missing pixels (or slight border changes?) that Austrian Silesia is now in one piece and Küstenland is part of Carinthia. I would like to see someone make a semi-serious map like this including those elements, with or without them having a lovely system of mixed civil and military governments in the south bank Danubian kingdom here. I wonder what they call it here? They went with the Triune Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia, and Dalmatia while only having Slavonia and Croatia. Fivefold Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia, Dalmatia, Serbia, and Eastern Rumelia? I was going to suggest Moesia for the Bulgarian part, but looking it up I see the Romans had Serbia as Moesia Superior and had Dobruja and northern Bulgaria as Moesia Inferior. There is an idea for those of you out there who want a name less practical than Yugoslavia. Anyways, a fun little map, as maps in here should be.
Illyria is another possible name.
And in case of Carinthia - yes, thats definitely missing pixel
About more "serious take" - mhm, I could try, but dunno if I find good enough basemap... and enough time and especially patience for it :D
Anyone else is of course free to remake this map/idea
 
Tired of interminable arguments about the British Empire, an Alien Space Bat helps the rest of the world divide up the British Empire. Many people now find themselves a bit confused as to what just happened.

Perfideous Albion is no more.png
 

Crazy Boris

Banned
1800.png


This is the oldest map I can find on my computer. I made it on February 2014, I would have been 16 at the time.

There's um.... a lot to take in here.

As embarrassing as this is, it shows how far I've come.
 
1800.png


This is the oldest map I can find on my computer. I made it on February 2014, I would have been 16 at the time.

There's um.... a lot to take in here.

As embarrassing as this is, it shows how far I've come.

idk, mate. There are a few anachronisms, a few unrealistic changes, but it's not terrible. It isn't bad, especially for a 16-year-old.

Although those janky Prussian borders were an interesting choice. And if both Prussia and Austria are outide "Germany" (is that the HRE? an early German Confederation? Something else?), then who is the main German power? Saxony? Bavaria? Hanover?
 
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