Fall of Constantinople 718

Not really. Umar II gave the berbers their fair share. It was after the 730s that the Ummayads turned to become a more Vapid Arab proto-nationalist force that led to the revolt of the berbers in 739 AD as a prelude to the 741 Edict of discrimination. The Berbers also revolted based on religious differences, as most had become Ibadis and Kharjiite's who were opposed to the Sunnism of the Caliphate on principle. It was also really al-Habbab's massacres in trying to get the taxes he wanted that saw the Berbers finally pushed over the edge for revolt.

The majority of Christians of Syria, the Monothelites, remained pro-Ummayad and was also instrumental in beating the Byzantine forces back. They were given exemption from Jizya for a few years after they joined the Ummayad Army to defeat the Byzantine incursion in 670s and 80s. Most famously there were Syrian Copts who formed the vanguard of the Ummayad forces against the Byzantines during the wars of the 670s as well opposing Constantin IV. The revolt you mention happened under a border town, near modern day Aleppo and Turkish Iskenderun today where they were subject to wartime taxes due to the frequent war with the ERE. Muslims also revolted when Constantine IV came due to the exuberant wartime taxes. It wasn't an only Christian thing.
Before Umar the Berbers were given little of spoils despite been the hardest of fighters the idea that Caliph Hisham fault is not accurate if we have direct evidence when people like Yazid ibn Abi before the 730s treated the Berbers poorly

As for the revolt of Constantine landing troops as mentioned it still occurred due in part high taxes and while here it can be explained by war as seen by the Coptic revolt of 720 has to with been chirstian ( after all there was no standar of the jyzia) but let's leave at this the Arabs were tolerant for the time but certain provinces and governor's were still abusive to their subject
Oh that the Berber revolt had been an explosions of tensions that really could be seen as early as the conquest of Hispania
 
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Before Umar the Berbers were given little of spoils despite been the hardest of fighters the idea that Caliph Hisham fault is not accurate if we have direct evidence when people like Yazid ibn Abi before the 730s treated the Berbers poorly

As for the revolt of Constantine landing troops as mentioned it still occurred due in part high taxes and while here it can be explained by war as seen by the Coptic revolt of 720 has to with been chirstian ( after all there was no standar of the jyzia) but let's leave at this the Arabs were tolerant for the time but certain provinces and governor's were still abusive to their subject
Oh that the Berber revolt had been an explosions of tensions that really could be seen as early as the conquest of Hispania
Are we talking about the Bashmurian Revolts? That was the only Coptic Revolt in the 720s. Because those revolts were so unpopular with the vast majority of the Egyptian Copts that the Ummayad Army sent to deal with them in 749 AD was half made up with other Copts from Egypt. Also the Bashmurian Revolt of 712 AD and 720 AD virtually dissipated after the Byzantine navy left, signalling that without the Byzantines the revolt wouldn't even have happened at all at such scale if at all.
Certainly, which is why i believe that without the governorship of Al-Habbab, the Berber Revolt would not have happened, at least to the scale that it had happened. The massacres he conducted virtually led to a massive pro-Ibadi surge in Africa that lasted until the 1500s otl along with an anti-Ummayad Feeling being surged. It was like an ancient Easter Rising so to speak.
 
Are we talking about the Bashmurian Revolts? That was the only Coptic Revolt in the 720s. Because those revolts were so unpopular with the vast majority of the Egyptian Copts that the Ummayad Army sent to deal with them in 749 AD was half made up with other Copts from Egypt. Also the Bashmurian Revolt of 712 AD and 720 AD virtually dissipated after the Byzantine navy left, signalling that without the Byzantines the revolt wouldn't even have happened at all at such scale if at all.
Certainly, which is why i believe that without the governorship of Al-Habbab, the Berber Revolt would not have happened, at least to the scale that it had happened. The massacres he conducted virtually led to a massive pro-Ibadi surge in Africa that lasted until the 1500s otl.
The Bashmurian Revolts were not only in 720 revolt of the boukoloi occurred in 712 also i think you are conflating sources there is no source for the byzantine navy in the 712 revolt that only occurred in 720 revolt were the byzantine navy landed in Tannis while the revolt of 720 would not have reached of course the revolts been a minor scale does help but then again revolts can still occur if the Arabs are just embolden by their victory the caliphate would have prestige that is good and could help in the short term
( Unless the caliph has his own Pliksa by attacking Bulgaria Nas having his army be killed in a mountain pass ) i have also not taken in to account that how would the khazars support a Byzantine remanat in eastern Anatolia .

But yeah I agree with you it's totally possible and likely said revolts are smaller but they don't go away if the caliphate continues to act this way
 
The Bashmurian Revolts were not only in 720 revolt of the boukoloi occurred in 712 also i think you are conflating sources there is no source for the byzantine navy in the 712 revolt that only occurred in 720 revolt were the byzantine navy landed in Tannis while the revolt of 720 would not have reached of course the revolts been a minor scale does help but then again revolts can still occur if the Arabs are just embolden by their victory the caliphate would have prestige that is good and could help in the short term
( Unless the caliph has his own Pliksa )
There was. The Relations Between the Empire and Egypt from a New Arabic Source by EW Brooks (1913) uses Arab and Byzantine sources. A Byzantine landing was made in Tinnis twice in 712 AD and once in 720 AD.
 
There was. The Relations Between the Empire and Egypt from a New Arabic Source by EW Brooks (1913) uses Arab and Byzantine sources. A Byzantine landing was made in Tinnis twice in 712 AD and once in 720 AD.
while i can not confrim this since sadly this source is blocked and iam not paying a subscription to get but from the sources i did read ie "The Revolts of the Bashmuric Copts in the Eighth and Ninth Centuries does mention the revolt of 712 but does not mention the byzantine landing in 712 in fact this the only event mentioned in 712 by other sources i read like constantinople 717 was the bulgarians pushing towards constantinople during the 20 years anarchy .

the age of dromon ( love this book by the way) also does not mention this, but you could argue iam using arguments from silence as said i cant confirm anything due to not been able to view the source.
 
It certainly is possible. With the victory at Constantinople, Umar II's prestige would be unmatched and i doubt the nobles would try to poison him like otl. But there is also the chance he continues to be a little too reformist for the traditional elite leading to his assassination later. Umar II's death was the beginning of the end for the Ummayads otl. Really it could go both ways i would say.
Is a Tossup but with the butterflies he might not be an easy target for poisoning but let's wait and see, Umar II living longer changed a lot everything in the caliphate too
 
The 717 campaign was the Umayyad Caliphate's major combined arms offensive against the Roman Empire, and one of the largest joint sea and land military operations across the entire medieval period. The expedition came about as a result of an extended tug of war over Anatolia between Constantinople and Damascus. Caliph Sulayman hoped to take advantage of Roman instability (see the 20 years anarchy) by either occupying Constantinople or subordinating the Roman Emperor to Damascus. And thus completely shattering the Roman hold over Anatolia in a single campaign and solving the entire Anatolian question in one fell swoop. Had the Caliph's armies under the command of Maslama ibn Abd-Al Malik somehow been victorious, it is quite likely that the Umayyads would have held onto the city, because the only way to besiege Constantinople would be to gain naval superiority and blockade it, which no other medieval power during this period other than the Romans and the Umayyads were able to project into the Aegean.

What would the effects of such a victory have been? Given that the goal of the campaign was to open up a vacuum in Anatolia ripe for Umayyad domination, large swathes of the region (if not all of it) would gradually be brought under Umayyad/Arab administration or vassalization. Certain outposts may have remained such as Trebizond but it's hard to determine how long for. Muslim rulers constantly competed with the Romans for control over the Mediterranean Islands as well, such as Crete, Cyprus, Rhodes and Sicily. The former three exchanging hands multiple times between them. However, without a Roman Navy, it seems very plausible that these islands would have permanently come under Arab rule, and would serve as strategic launch pads for further raids. A notable example of this in our timeline being Chandax, Crete, which was conquered by Andalusian exiles before being reconquered a century later by Constantinople.

On a wider political level, the Roman Empire would in a very real sense, cease to exist. Without Constantinople as its central authority, various neo-Roman rump states across Greece and Italy, some of which perhaps claiming to be a legitimate successor of the empire could emerge instead. When it comes to religious and cultural changes, the most noticeable impact would of course be in Anatolia, where one can predict an even greater fusion of Greek and Arab ideas/culture/traditions than in our timeline. An ethnically greek population adhering to Islam could likely emerge, which whilst becoming muslim, would maintain its greek language, traditions and customs. Similar to what happened to Iran and most other countries with sizeable muslim populations today, where whilst large swathes of them were brought under Muslim rule for many centuries, they still retained their heritage, culture, languages and traditions irrespective of any religious changes. Further fusions could include the adoption of Roman law alongside the shari'a to govern its greek population; comedies, tragedies and oratory arts (an epic tragedy of the Martyrdom of Hussein could be interesting); Roman-style civil service governance in caliphates and emirates, and Caliphs occasionally employing Byzantine Emperor's trappings as divine legitimacy and legal intervention (pardoning the guilty); monastic-style orders of Islamic mystics developing earlier than OTL. An even greater exchange of philosophical and scientific ideas between Muslim and Christian Europe may occur than in our middle ages, perhaps leading to socio-political circumstances that kickstart an earlier or alternative Renaissance-like transformation period more explicitly influenced by Islam and various near eastern intellectual environments.

An Arab conquest of the Balkans and Eastern Europe following this victory is hard to predict and I would argue unlikely given the difficulties Byzantine Constantinople experienced in confronting the Bulgarians and maintaining control over the region. However, without the central authority of the Roman Empire and its influence in the spread of Orthodox Christianity, it is quite likely that throughout the Balkans and across the Black Sea in modern Russia, the rulers, nobility and merchants may gradually adopt Islam instead. The spread of Islam through trade followed by the conversion of nobility and local rulers is also how Islam gained a foothold in many other parts of the world, such as Indonesia, which today houses the largest muslim population globally. Previously pagan empires, city states and local rulers across eastern Europe may well eventually choose to recognise the superiority of the religion of the Greco-Roman-Arab civilisation centred in Constantinople, converting to Islam instead. It wasn't until the peak of Ottoman power in the 17th century, where the Balkans gained a Christian-Muslim plurality, later to be erased by the 19th/20th century nascent balkan nation states, which oversaw the systematic expulsion of their Muslim populations, coterminous with the genocides of christian minorities of Anatolia under the CUP dominated Ottoman government.

Therefore, it is quite likely that many of these regions would gradually develop a Muslim plurality or majority throughout the medieval and early modern period, similar to the Malay Archipelago. Furthermore, assuming national identities develop across Europe as they did in our timeline, it is also highly plausible that Islam, or at least a coexistence between Islam and Christianity becomes ingrained within the values/identities of these various countries. Perhaps early 20th century Russia and Austria-Hungary would be composed of Muslim-Christian pluralities-assuming the massive transnational polities that emerged in our timeline aren't butterflied away (although they probably would be, imagine a Muslim USSR lmao).
 
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Building on the comments made by Nepos and Neuser, I actually think the outcome would be somewhat similar to that imagined in Daeres' Achaemenid Hellas timeline e.g. a fusion of Greek and Eastern cultures, along with an eventual blending of Western and Eastern philosophies more generally with a big impact on state development across Europe. Perhaps Greece may even end up being considered more part of 'Asia' than 'Europe'.

Similar again to Achaemenid Hellas, if Greece is eventually conquered by the Arabs then an Arab-ruled Greek successor state could emerge when the Umayyads eventually collapse. I also think the loss of Constantinople would force a re-orientation of Byzantine priorities to hold onto the remaining territories in the West. Perhaps an influx of men and material from the East would bolster these territories and consolidate them into something more durable.
 
Now that I think about it, a timeline from the POV of the Romans about the fall of Constantinople at the beginning of the VIII century and their subsequent attempts at piecing together what is left of the old Roman world would make for an interesting story. This could also be mixed together with another POD of mine I have had in mind for a while set during the same period to create a single story. If someone is interested I could start doing some researches on the period with the aim of starting a new timeline (of course once I am done with the other story).
Yes please! This would definitely be an interesting scenario!
 
Bulgaria might take advantage of the fall of the Romans and how overstretched the caliphate is to conquer more the Muslims have no real chance of destroying the first Bulgarian empire they are to entrenched at this point and by the time they consolidate the Bulgarian empire would make any Muslim army return leaving a lot of corpses in the mountains
IOTL Bulgaria came to the aid of the Byzantines and helped break the siege. Why would it not ITTL is the critical question, I would guess.
 
Constantinople falls as a result of the 717-718 siege by the Caliphate. How much of Eastern Europe is conquered as a result? Could a small Greek state hold out? (This has probably come up before, but I'm interested in new ideas).
Arabs are primarily involved , Turks not in the picture so unless they somehow have the manpower to occupy Constantinople I feel like at it will be a S& G operation ( sack and pillage) ala the fourth crusade
 
The 717 campaign was the Umayyad Caliphate's major combined armed offensive against the Roman Empire, and one of the largest joint sea and land military operations across the entire medieval period. It was extensively funded and prepared by the Caliph himself. The expedition came about as a result of an extended tug of war over Anatolia between Constantinople and Damascus. By occupying Constantinople, Caliph Sulayman hoped to take advantage of Roman instability (see the 20 years anarchy) in order to completely shatter its hold over Anatolia in a single campaign and thus solve the entire Anatolian question in one fell swoop. Had the Caliph's armies under the command of Maslama ibn Abd-Al Malik been victorious, it is quite likely that the Umayyads would have held onto the city, because the only way to effectively besiege it would be to gain naval superiority and blockade it, which no other medieval power during this period other than the Romans and the Umayyads were able to project into the Aegean.

What would the effects of such a victory have been? It's hard to determine without relying on pure counterfactuals. Given that the goal of the campaign was to open up a vacuum in Anatolia ripe for Umayyad domination, large swathes of the region (if not all of it) would gradually be brought under Umayyad/Arab administration or vassalization. Certain outposts may have remained such as Trebizond but it's hard to determine how long for. Muslim rulers constantly competed with the Romans for control over the Mediterranean Islands as well, such as Crete, Cyprus, Rhodes and Sicily. The former three exchanging hands multiple times between them. However, without a Roman Navy, it seems very plausible that these islands would have permanently come under Arab rule, and would serve as strategic launch pads for further raids. A notable example of this in our timeline being Chandax, Crete, which was conquered by Andalusian exiles before being reconquered a century later by Byzantium.

On a wider political level, the Roman Empire would in a very real sense, cease to exist. Without Constantinople as its central authority, various neo-Byzantine rump states across Greece and Italy, some of which perhaps claiming to be a legitimate successor of the empire could emerge instead. When it comes to religious and cultural changes, the most noticeable impact would of course be in Anatolia, where I predict an even greater fusion of Greek and Arab ideas/culture/traditions than in our timeline would occur. An ethnically greek population adhering to Islam could likely emerge, which whilst becoming muslim, would maintain its greek language, traditions and customs. Similar to what happened to Iran and most other countries with sizeable muslim populations today, where whilst large swathes of them were brought under Muslim rule for many centuries, they still retained their heritage, culture, languages and traditions irrespective of any religious changes. Further fusions could include the adoption of Roman law alongside the shari'a to govern its greek population; comedies, tragedies and oratory arts (an epic tragedy of the Martyrdom of Hussein could be interesting); Roman-style civil service governance in caliphates and emirates, and Caliphs occasionally employing Byzantine Emperor's trappings as divine legitimacy and legal intervention (pardoning the guilty); monastic-style orders of Islamic mystics developing earlier than OTL. An even greater exchange of philosophical and scientific ideas between Muslim and Christian Europe may occur than in our middle ages, perhaps leading to socio-political circumstances that kickstart an earlier or alternative Renaissance-like transformation period more explicitly influenced by Islam and various near eastern intellectual environments.

An Arab conquest of the Balkans and Eastern Europe following this victory is hard to predict and I would argue unlikely given the difficulties Byzantine Constantinople experienced in confronting the Bulgarians and maintaining control over the region. However, without the central authority of the Roman Empire and its influence in the spread of Orthodox Christianity, it is quite likely that throughout the Balkans and across the Black Sea in modern Russia, the rulers, nobility and merchants may gradually adopt Islam instead. The spread of Islam through trade followed by the conversion of nobility and local rulers is also how Islam gained a foothold in many other parts of the world, such as Indonesia, which today houses the largest muslim population globally. Previously pagan empires, city states and local rulers across eastern Europe may well eventually choose to recognise the superiority of the religion of the Greco-Roman-Arab civilisation centred in Constantinople, converting to Islam instead. It wasn't until the peak of Ottoman power in the 17th century, where the Balkans gained a Christian-Muslim plurality, later to be erased by the 19th/20th century nascent balkan nation states, which oversaw the systematic expulsion of their Muslim populations, coterminous with the genocides of christian minorities of Anatolia under the CUP dominated Ottoman government.

Therefore, it is quite likely that many of these regions would gradually develop a Muslim plurality or majority throughout the medieval and early modern period, similar to the Malay Archipelago. Furthermore, assuming national identities develop across Europe as they did in our timeline, it is also highly plausible that Islam, or at least a coexistence between Islam and Christianity becomes ingrained within the values/identities of these various countries. Perhaps early 20th century Russia and Austria-Hungary would be composed of Muslim-Christian pluralities-assuming the massive transnational polities that emerged in our timeline aren't butterflied away (they probably would be, imagine a Muslim USSR lmao).
Interesting comment. Would be fun to see someone tackle that and try to write a TL loosely along those lines.
 
Arabs are primarily involved , Turks not in the picture so unless they somehow have the manpower to occupy Constantinople I feel like at it will be a S& G operation ( sack and pillage) ala the fourth crusade
I doubt it, and why g over p? Still Constantinople was a prize Muslims were aiming for, so they would going to fully occupied it
 
; Roman-style civil service governance in caliphates and emirates, and Caliphs occasionally employing Byzantine Emperor's trappings as divine legitimacy and legal intervention (pardoning the guilty);
This one is very interesting, Especially if the Caliph become the Roman Emperor too
 
So, the Ottomans, but eight centuries early.
Far different, now the door of the balkans are wide open and Muslims would pursuit the remainder Romaioi to Magnae Graecia, the butterflies are endless, plus yeah the early Ummayds taking that title change massively the post rashidun era
 
So, the Ottomans, but eight centuries early.
no in the 16th century there were well established European powers with armies that could pose resistance to the ottomans or can make alliances against them in 718 we have just Bulgaria and the franks , Italy with out the byzantine navy (which was the only real resistance to the Muslim one) would be a big target to the new caliphate a total conquest of the peninsula is quite unlikely as Bulgaria would be a major annoyance to the caliphate
 
Far different, now the door of the balkans are wide open and Muslims would pursuit the remainder Romaioi to Magnae Graecia, the butterflies are endless, plus yeah the early Ummayds taking that title change massively the post rashidun era
no in the 16th century there were well established European powers with armies that could pose resistance to the ottomans or can make alliances against them in 718 we have just Bulgaria and the franks , Italy with out the byzantine navy (which was the only real resistance to the Muslim one) would be a big target to the new caliphate a total conquest of the peninsula is quite unlikely as Bulgaria would be a major annoyance to the caliphate
Guys, there's something that's been puzzling me for a while.

As you may have been aware, Romans in the Roman army have been on the numerical decline since the time of Augustus, but the entire process accelerated in the Constantinian era, leading to the barbarian Roman army of the 5th-7th centuries we are all familiar with. I have read much on the subject so this isn't the part that puzzles me.

What is puzzling me is this: who manned the Roman navy, and why on earth do they keep fighting even when the army was broken, imperial finances were broken and imperial morale could only afford hiding behind walls? Were they barbarians of a different mental caliber compared to their cousins in the army?

Or were they Roman?

If we can't answer this question, we would be going nowhere on the subject of the OP - which is, how could New Rome fall in 718? It isn't something that could be butterflied away by saying "no Greek Fire", since the Roman Navy itself (as much as Battle of the Masts is brought up, it was not a decapitating blow to the Roman Navy), Coptic sailors' spiritual unity with the Christian Romans, sickness, supply troubles and of course good old fashioned infighting all factored in the OTL failure of the 718 campaign. Understanding the demographics of one of the most important participating forces is crucial to understanding where to place the POD.
 
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